Saved Or Predestined ???

[Renniks]

Romans 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

I cited that scriptures to somehow bring you to reconsider whatever it is you believe is evil for you said "If God decrees everything, that makes him the author of evil.." And so I ask you, is the act of God committing them all to disobedience, evil or not? And you apparently can't even answer that or don't want to answer it. So by that, your statement really does not carry much meaning on the term "evil".

Renniks: Notice that Paul says God did this ( only because of thier initial disobedience) so that he could have mercy on all and yet you claim he only chooses to reveal himself to some.

Initial disobedience? What initial disobedience are you talking about? You said "mercy on all". Who do you refer in the "all"?

Tong
R0108

To understand what is meant, we have to start at the beginning
The hardening of the unbelieving part of ethnic Israel has been resulting in Gentiles coming to faith in Christ (verse 11), and Paul has already stated his hope that the inclusion of these Gentiles will result in at least some of his fellow ethnic Israelites (who have been hardened) turning to Christ (verse 14).

" Just as you who were at one time disobedient receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you.
31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. "

This isn't saying every single Jew became disobedient or that every single gentile became Christian. Paul is making a general statement.
Basically, God allowed ethnic Israel to remain disobedient without punishment, so that the gospel could reach more of the gentiles.
God's goal was always to reach as many as would surrender to him.

It's not a deterministic formula. God didn't cause Israel's initial disobedience, but he allowed them to become hardened so that the gospel could spread to the world more quickly. I'm not even sure I understand what you mean about my thinking this was evil. God didn't decree thier rebellion. There is a huge difference between allowing and ordaining something.

 

[Renniks]

To comment on the last paragraph of your post, it says "God is good toward all who accept His goodness.". Why, is He not good to those who don't? If He is not good to them, then does that not imply that He is bad

He gives them what they want, which is separation from him. That is good, really...it's justice. It might not seem good from our perspective, but it truly is.

 

[Renniks]

AW Tozer: He has said, “I’ll allow you, within a little framework, to be your own boss and to choose to go to heaven or to hell.”

Of course God did not say that. AW Tozer obviously is him who said that.

" See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess."

Does this not indicate that we have a choice between life and death?

"... to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets— who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight."

Do you not see that having faith is powerful?

I'm not sure what you are trying to say, can you not see that we choose heaven or hell and God allows us that choice?

"And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?” And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” And he said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.”

God isn't choosing for us.

 

[Renniks]

Do you see now and understand the kingdom of heaven? As Jesus said there in verse 43 "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"

Lol, first I would like to point out how ironic it is that you quoted this verse. Do you have ears? Does everyone have ears? Why is Jesus telling people to listen if some are born destined for hell anyway? Does it matter if those hear if they cannot respond, because God has created them unable to respond?

 

[Renniks]

He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

Yes, the devil sows bad seeds and Jesus sows good seeds. You would of course, impose a deterministic reading on God's Holy Word and decide for yourself that a tare cannot become wheat or wheat become a tare. But the parable itself places the blame on the tares, those who practice lawlessness, that is, those who are not true believers.

As we see in the parable of the sower and the seed, some allow the seed of the gospel to be choked out by the cares of life and the persecution of the world. Some allow Satan to make them into tares and some are simply fake Christians to start with. We can not always tell the difference. Only God knows each heart. That's the point, not that a person cannot change. Good grief, the whole point of these parables are to encourage people to truly come to Jesus, and you would twist them into a fatalist religion.

 

[kcnalp]

and why will they burn in hell

Because they reject Jesus of the Bible.

 

[Tong2020]

IMHO the context presents the "elect" as Christians with the view of an ultimate salvation ("on that day"). It is corporate. The elect as a whole group.

I re-read the passage. But the context does not present the "elect" as Christians with the view of an ultimate salvation as you say there. Besides context, the word "also" must not be ignored.

So honestly, I am still open at the view that the "elect" there are Christians. So, I will be studying this view in relation to this passage in 2 Tim. 2:10.

But may I ask you, do you believe that ethnic Israel are chosen people of God, among the peoples of the earth? As such they are also referred to as God's elect in scriptures?

Tong
R0112

 

[John Caldwell]

I re-read the passage. But the context does not present the "elect" as Christians with the view of an ultimate salvation as you say there. Besides context, the word "also" must not be ignored.

So honestly, I am still open at the view that the "elect" there are Christians. So, I will be studying this view in relation to this passage in 2 Tim. 2:10.

But may I ask you, do you believe that ethnic Israel are chosen people of God, among the peoples of the earth? As such they are also referred to as God's elect in scriptures?

Tong
R0112

I disagree. I believe that Paul is in fact speaking of "the elect" rather than individual elected people with a final salvation in mind.

It does not really matter so much. Either you are right and I am wrong or the other way around. I've been wrong before so it would not hurt my feelings to be proved so again. But thus far I do not believe I am.

I do believe that ethnic Israel was chosen by God. But I also believe some were grafted out so others would be grafted in (which kinda destroys Israel as the "elect"). People and nations are chosen. But in terms of salvation I believe that the "elect" only refer to those who believe in the Promise (in Christ) and are "in Him".

 

[kcnalp]

God bless Israel and President Trump!

Amos 9:15
15 I will plant them in their land, And no longer shall they be pulled up From the land I have given them," Says the LORD your God.

 

[Tong2020]

To understand what is meant, we have to start at the beginning
The hardening of the unbelieving part of ethnic Israel has been resulting in Gentiles coming to faith in Christ (verse 11), and Paul has already stated his hope that the inclusion of these Gentiles will result in at least some of his fellow ethnic Israelites (who have been hardened) turning to Christ (verse 14).

" Just as you who were at one time disobedient receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you.
31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. "

This isn't saying every single Jew became disobedient or that every single gentile became Christian. Paul is making a general statement.
Basically, God allowed ethnic Israel to remain disobedient without punishment, so that the gospel could reach more of the gentiles.
God's goal was always to reach as many as would surrender to him.

It's not a deterministic formula. God didn't cause Israel's initial disobedience, but he allowed them to become hardened so that the gospel could spread to the world more quickly. I'm not even sure I understand what you mean about my thinking this was evil. God didn't decree thier rebellion. There is a huge difference between allowing and ordaining something.

Renniks: Basically, God allowed ethnic Israel to remain disobedient without punishment, so that the gospel could reach more of the gentiles.

What scriptures says God did concerning that is found in these:

Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

That is more than God allowing ethnic Israel to remain disobedient, for it clearly said the rest were blinded.

Renniks: God didn't cause Israel's initial disobedience, but he allowed them to become hardened so that the gospel could spread to the world more quickly.

Scriptures: as it is written “God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day.”

Not only that God allowed them to remain disobedient, they were hardened by God, giving them a spirit of stupor, blind eyes and deaf ears.

So, the question, is the act of God committing them all to disobedience, hardening them, evil or not? Is that evil? If not, why? What is evil for you?

Tong
R0113

 

[Tong2020]

He gives them what they want, which is separation from him. That is good, really...it's justice. It might not seem good from our perspective, but it truly is.

That's exactly my point. That's why I said AW Tozer's statement "God is good toward all who accept His goodness." is defective.

Tong
R0114

 

[Renniks]

Renniks: Basically, God allowed ethnic Israel to remain disobedient without punishment, so that the gospel could reach more of the gentiles.

What scriptures says God did concerning that is found in these:

Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

That is more than God allowing ethnic Israel to remain disobedient, for it clearly said the rest were blinded.

Renniks: God didn't cause Israel's initial disobedience, but he allowed them to become hardened so that the gospel could spread to the world more quickly.

Scriptures: as it is written “God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day.”

Not only that God allowed them to remain disobedient, they were hardened by God, giving them a spirit of stupor, blind eyes and deaf ears.

So, the question, is the act of God committing them all to disobedience, hardening them, evil or not? Is that evil? If not, why? What is evil for you?

Tong
R0113

There are two kinds of hardening taught in scripture.

1. Self-hardening: This is where a morally accountable person, who is able to refrain or not refrain from given moral actions, grows stubborn or calloused in his own ways.
2. Hardened by God: This is God’s active role in blinding an already rebellious person in their rebellion so as to prevent their repentance for a time. God’s motive is ALWAYS to accomplish a greater redemptive purpose through their rebellious actions.

We see Jesus hiding the truth in parables (Mark 4:11). WHY? If all the Jews were born deaf, blind and unable to understand the truth why would he need to do this? He did it because He did not want them to come to repentance YET (not until after he is crucified and raised up does he draw all men to himself). This shows us that Jesus knew the truth was more than sufficient to draw the lost to repentance.
God simply allowed the Jews to remain blind. He didn't blow them over like Paul on the Damascus road, and yet, some of the more discerning among them still became his followers, so this blindness could hardly be said to be irresistible. Why? Because otherwise, the crucifixion would not have happened and the gospel and the Spirit would not have come with great power to all people.
Now, the Calvinists use verses about God hardening people to show that people have to be irresistibly drawn to the gospel, but scripture shows us this hardening is not something that is applied to each person, and that the gospel is powerful enough in its self, so they are actually arguing against their own version of total depravity. If people are already totally incapable of responding to God by themselves, there would be no need of hardening in the circumstances where God used it to advance his kingdom.

 

[Renniks]

That's exactly my point. That's why I said AW Tozer's statement "God is good toward all who accept His goodness." is defective.

Tong
R0114

No, he has it exactly right. God is good toward all who accept his goodness and he judges those who don't.

 

[Tong2020]

" See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess."

Does this not indicate that we have a choice between life and death?

"... to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets— who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight."

Do you not see that having faith is powerful?

I'm not sure what you are trying to say, can you not see that we choose heaven or hell and God allows us that choice?

"And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?” And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” And he said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.”

God isn't choosing for us.

Renniks: Does this not indicate that we have a choice between life and death?

It sure does. But that is very different, not the same, from what AW Tozer claims to have God said, that is, "I’ll allow you, within a little framework, to be your own boss and to choose to go to heaven or to hell."

Renniks: Do you not see that having faith is powerful?

Hebrews 11 sure tells us what faith is, what it enables those who have faith to do. So?

Renniks: God isn't choosing for us.

Of course God isn't choosing for us. But God is the one who choose to whom He wills to give grace. God gave Adam commandment ~ if Adam disobey, he will surely die. Adam chose to disobey God, that is in effect, he had chosen to die or death over life. It was Adam who chose, not God. Adam's posterity evidently makes the same choice as he did. Well, that sure says a lot about mankind.

Once, there came the time that God said "The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them; and behold, I will destroy them with the earth. (Gen.6:13)" Regarding this, it is God who chose, not man. And scriptures said "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. (Gen.6:8)". Regarding this, it is God who chose and given grace, not man. Did Noah initiated that? Did he meet any requirements asked of him by God to do prior to this time, that we could say that Noah was chosen because of that? I don't find any scriptures that says anything to that effect. Though I find scriptures saying of Noah, "Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God. (Gen.6:9)". Another scriptures speaking of Noah is this, "Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation. (Gen. 7:1)". But none of that speaks of any condition or works required of man to do to be saved. Having chosen him and having chosen to give him grace, God divinely warned him of the coming wrath and instructed him what to do. Notice, whatever choices that we read Noah had made are not the reason/s why God chose him or reasons why Noah was saved, not to mention 7 others of his family.

In Genesis 12, scriptures said " Now the Lord had said to Abram: “Get out of your country, From your family And from your father’s house, To a land that I will show you. I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” Did Abram have anything to do with this? I read nothing in scriptures that says he did. So again, this is solely God's choice, doing, and initiative. God chose him and made those promises to him and to his seed. If you examine scriptures, from Genesis 12 onwards, all that God did was towards fulfilling what He said to Abram. Think about that my friend.

Tong
R0115

 

[Tong2020]

Lol, first I would like to point out how ironic it is that you quoted this verse. Do you have ears? Does everyone have ears? Why is Jesus telling people to listen if some are born destined for hell anyway? Does it matter if those hear if they cannot respond, because God has created them unable to respond?

Perhaps before you lol, you ought first to consider the scriptures before you Renniks. Do you believe what Jesus is saying about the parable of the wheat and the tares? Or like what Jesus said about the sheep in John 10, do you also go with what you think and say over that of what Jesus taught his disciples in those scriptures?

Renniks: Why is Jesus telling people to listen if some are born destined for hell anyway? Does it matter if those hear if they cannot respond, because God has created them unable to respond?

Not only did Jesus said in verse 43 "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!" but also in verse 9. Your question is close to the question of His disciples, "Why do You speak to them in parables?”. And here's what Jesus told them in verse 11, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given." Don't you see, while Jesus goes about preaching telling people what He told them recorded in scriptures, and telling them "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!", the truth of the matter is that, there are people chosen by God to know and not all are chosen to know. You can continue reading Jesus' answer until verse 17. If you'll recall, ate least concerning the people of Israel, that some were elected and the rest were blinded. As it is written "God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day. (Romans 11:8)”

Jesus was going about His ministry, as a man Renniks, not as God. That's why He submitted himself to the law that God gave to man, to Israel in particular. You can read of many things he did as a man, which could raise questions why he did so when one begins to mix up Jesus' Deity.

Tong
R0116

 

[Renniks]

Renniks: Do you not see that having faith is powerful?

Hebrews 11 sure tells us what faith is, what it enables those who have faith to do. So?

Renniks: God isn't choosing for us.

Of course God isn't choosing for us. But God is the one who choose to whom He wills to give grace. God gave Adam commandment ~ if Adam disobey, he will surely die. Adam chose to disobey God, that is in effect, he had chosen to die or death over life. It was Adam who chose, not God. Adam's posterity evidently makes the same choice as he did. Well, that sure says a lot about mankind.

Once, there came the time that God said "The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them; and behold, I will destroy them with the earth. (Gen.6:13)" Regarding this, it is God who chose, not man. And scriptures said "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. (Gen.6:8)". Regarding this, it is God who chose and given grace, not man. Did Noah initiated that? Did he meet any requirements asked of him by God to do prior to this time, that we could say that Noah was chosen because of that? I don't find any scriptures that says anything to that effect. Though I find scriptures saying of Noah, "Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God. (Gen.6:9)". Another scriptures speaking of Noah is this, "Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation. (Gen. 7:1)". But none of that speaks of any condition or works required of man to do to be saved. Having chosen him and having chosen to give him grace, God divinely warned him of the coming wrath and instructed him what to do. Notice, whatever choices that we read Noah had made are not the reason/s why God chose him or reasons why Noah was saved, not to mention 7 others of his family.

In Genesis 12, scriptures said " Now the Lord had said to Abram: “Get out of your country, From your family And from your father’s house, To a land that I will show you. I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” Did Abram have anything to do with this? I read nothing in scriptures that says he did. So again, this is solely God's choice, doing, and initiative. God chose him and made those promises to him and to his seed. If you examine scriptures, from Genesis 12 onwards, all that God did was towards fulfilling what He said to Abram. Think about that my friend.

Tong
R0115

None of this has anything to do with whether we can choose to believe or not. Or whether God extends grace to all. You seem to want to ignore the fact that God picked Noah because he was a just man, but again, you say a lot but don't address the issue.
Renniks: Does this not indicate that we have a choice between life and death?

It sure does. But that is very different, not the same, from what AW Tozer claims to have God said, that is, "I’ll allow you, within a little framework, to be your own boss and to choose to go to heaven or to hell."

No, it's exactly the same. Could they choose to follow God or follow false religion? Then they could choose either heaven or hell.

 

[Renniks]

Jesus was going about His ministry, as a man Renniks, not as God. That's why He submitted himself to the law that God gave to man, to Israel in particular. You can read of many things he did as a man, which could raise questions why he did so when one begins to mix up Jesus' Deity.

No, he was also fully God. He didn't just do what any man can do. He raised the dead, walked on water, and gave sight to blind men. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make there.

 

[Tong2020]

Yes, the devil sows bad seeds and Jesus sows good seeds. You would of course, impose a deterministic reading on God's Holy Word and decide for yourself that a tare cannot become wheat or wheat become a tare. But the parable itself places the blame on the tares, those who practice lawlessness, that is, those who are not true believers.

As we see in the parable of the sower and the seed, some allow the seed of the gospel to be choked out by the cares of life and the persecution of the world. Some allow Satan to make them into tares and some are simply fake Christians to start with. We can not always tell the difference. Only God knows each heart. That's the point, not that a person cannot change. Good grief, the whole point of these parables are to encourage people to truly come to Jesus, and you would twist them into a fatalist religion.

The parable was explained by Jesus Himself Renniks. So, we just go by what Jesus said the parable means. So, no deterministic reading you have in your mind to worry about. But if you still do not see, let me guide you through.

The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares

Matthew 13: 24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”

The Parable of the Tares Explained

Matthew 13: 36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”
37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

Who is the sower of the wheat? Answer: The Son of Man, Jesus.
What are these wheat that the sower sowed? Answer: Good seeds, the sons of the kingdom

Don't you see that what Jesus sowed are the sons of the kingdom? Do you not see and realize that they are already sons of the kingdom from the very start?

Now let's go to the Tares.
Who sowed the Tares? Answer: The devil.
What are these Tares that the devil sowed? Answer: The sons of the wicked one.

Don't you see that what the devil sowed are the sons of the wicked one? Do you not see and realize that they are already sons of the wicked one from the very start?

Listen to this part of the parable concerning the sons of the kingdom (wheat) and the sons of the wicked one (tares):

'Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” '

Jesus had already explained it clearly. There is no reason for us Christians not to hear and understand what He says there. Why do you resist the truth? Why do you read in there as though there is tares becoming wheat or wheat becoming tares? What is prompting you to do that?

Be aware of this part in Mt.13 concerning parables:

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

Tong
R0117

 

[Tong2020]

I disagree. I believe that Paul is in fact speaking of "the elect" rather than individual elected people with a final salvation in mind.

It does not really matter so much. Either you are right and I am wrong or the other way around. I've been wrong before so it would not hurt my feelings to be proved so again. But thus far I do not believe I am.

I do believe that ethnic Israel was chosen by God. But I also believe some were grafted out so others would be grafted in (which kinda destroys Israel as the "elect"). People and nations are chosen. But in terms of salvation I believe that the "elect" only refer to those who believe in the Promise (in Christ) and are "in Him".

No problem if you disagree. It's everybody's right. Regarding your second paragraph, I agree and likewise believe as you do. I believe there is always a time in the life of the child of God when we see and hear, and a time when we see and hear not.

John C: I do believe that ethnic Israel was chosen by God. But I also believe some were grafted out so others would be grafted in (which kinda destroys Israel as the "elect").

What do you mean by "which kinda destroys Israel as the "elect"?

Tong
R0118

 

[Renniks]

Don't you see that what the devil sowed are the sons of the wicked one? Do you not see and realize that they are already sons of the wicked one from the very start?

Don't you read the rest of your Bible and understand we are all sons of the wicked one unless we repent?
"So, no deterministic reading you have in your mind to worry about."
But, that's exactly what you are doing. You are imposing your belief that one is born destined for either heaven or hell on a figurative story. You assume Jesus is saying what? That the wicked can't change and repent and become good? If that were true, not one person could be saved.
You want to ignore what Jesus had just got done teaching?

20" The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away."

A person can start out as good seed and fall away! Or continue on and find out:
"This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

All these parables encourage us to get right with God while we can. What you seem to be trying to say is that for many, that isn't a possibility. You are making the whole point of the parables pointless. If there's some destined for heaven and some for hell, nothing will change one from ending up wherever they are destined for. You want to take someone's motivation to follow God away? Tell them everything they do is predestined. Tell them their fate is already decided.