Saved Or Predestined ???

[Grailhunter]

I didn't participate in this forum to lie and be inconsistent, but to actually speak the truth and share the truth, at least as per my reading of scriptures, and have a good and godly conversation with the brethren across the globe.

I guess you believe that those who are foreknown, are also predestined by God. Predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. And who do you think makes that happen, or who do the transformation? That's right, it's God. First, there is no true child of God who continue to live in sin and who, for the liberty he have in Christ, will use it as a license to sin. Second, if he comes to know through his reading the Bible or from a brother, that he is predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ, I don't think the true child of God would be less motivated in following God as you supposed.

Tong
R0124

Predestinationism is the big lie!
You do lie! You promote a religion that suggests God has all the characteristics and initiatives of Satan. A mind control religion that believes their minds are controlled….irony or hilarity? When you put predestinationism in motion, it is horrid! As a movie it would be one of the scariest sci-fi horror flicks made. In stead of Invasion of the Body Snatchers, it would be Invasion of the Mind Snatcher. I sometimes consider that it maybe away of getting attention or a persecution complex. But that cannot be true either, because they hide it. They hide it because they know, that if people really knew what predestinationists believe, they would not want to have anything to do with it. That is why they very carefully hide their beliefs from their congregations. Churches that believe that Free-will is somewhere between sacrilegious or anti-God. What good is it to be "saved" if your mind is under the control of a satanic God?

It makes people wonder what kind of heart they have? Just like the abortion doctor that gets up in the morning, cleans up, has breakfast and goes to work each day to murder a few babies. What kind of heart could do that? But predestinationism is a million times worse than that, because when you put it in motion, you describe and worship a god that does that to millions of men, women, and children. Babies damned to hell before they are born. Damning them to hell by no fault of their own, no hope, no mercy, no escape! It is like Satan has given himself a guaranteed quota. What kind of heart could bend a knee to that god? What kind of people think this is good? Is it all about feeling special? The elect, is that worth it? To believe this is right, is hideous! Look in history, those that thought they were the elect were the worst of people. And it is not just the Nazis! Thinking that they are above others, warps their minds.

If Satan had a Bible in his lap, what scriptures would he quote? Condemnation, judgment, negativity, hate? If Satan had a Bible in his lap, what Christian denomination would he form? Schemer that he is, he would search the scriptures for scriptures that he could use against God… Predestination, let us make it a constant reality! God is a horrific puppet master that enslaves all humanity with no hope of escape! Damns them to Hell before they born!

He would push judgment before creation and predestine the innocent to hell, while laughing at those that are not damned because no good they did was of their own merit, but rather forced by him. In this church of Satan, no good would matter, only evil. Faith, love, compassion, prayer, grace, forgiveness, kindness, church attendance and good deeds would not matter or show character or true faith because they are all puppets on strings, every movement and thought being forced upon them, dummies of the satanic puppet master. He would suggest the Bible proves that the Christian God is a sadistic mind control monster so it would turn people away from Christianity!

From the outside it seems this religion replaces God with Satan, but of course that is not true. Predestinationists have hijacked our God to demonize Him much like the Moslems. No heresy can come close to equaling this. It slanders God in the worst way! Portraying him with the character of Satan!

 

[Candidus]

I think Jesus said it best

Matthew 12:31
“Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.


Jesus said , it is finished (tetellisti, literally paid in full)



Does not make sense please rephrase


lol.. The penalty of sin is death

This the ONLY payment which can pay for our sins
you will either pay for it with your death (in revelations, it is called the second death) or you will entrust Jesus death to "cover" your sins.

There is no other option

One day I will die, and that will pay for my sins... nonsense.

Who was "paid"? what does the Bible say? Surely, if paying for sins is in the Bible, it would tell us who was paid!

No competent translator of the Bible has translated "It is finished!" to be "Paid in Full!" The first so-called "translation" of the Bible to do so will take its place along the New World Translation as the worse Fake Translation in history!

Can you answer the relevant questions that are asked? Or do we just get another brush-off and evasion? You conclude one thing, yet you deny the inevitable results of that conclusion?

It is hard to take anything you claim about the Bible seriously when you are so convoluted and self-contradictory in your conclusions.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

One day I will die, and that will pay for my sins... nonsense.

Nope I never said this or suggested this

Can you please for once try to listen to what I have said. It gets old

Who was "paid"? what does the Bible say? Surely, if paying for sins is in the Bible, it would tell us who was paid!

You seem to have forgotten how the justice syste works

When a defendant who is charged with a crime, sentenced and put to death, Who was paid that death?

Stop trying so hard to find holes in my thinking, and sit for a few minutes and study..

No competent translator of the Bible has translated "It is finished!" to be "Paid in Full!" The first so-called "translation" of the Bible to do so will take its place along the New World Translation as the worse Fake Translation in history!

I do not care. the term was used and carried by all people who had paid their debt to society for their crimes, it was a legal term which means they had paid they debt in full. and could not be charged for the same crime again.

Legal terms are all through scripture. You should study them,,

Can you answer the relevant questions that are asked? Or do we just get another brush-off and evasion? You conclude one thing, yet you deny the inevitable results of that conclusion?

It is hard to take anything you claim about the Bible seriously when you are so convoluted and self-contradictory in your conclusions.

you misrepresent what I say so much, I have probably answered your question but you do not see it because you are not reading a thing I say, Your just trying to poke holes in it. and not doing a very good job at it.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Predestinationism is the big lie!
You do lie! You promote a religion that suggests God has all the characteristics and initiatives of Satan. A mind control religion that believes their minds are controlled….irony or hilarity? When you put predestinationism in motion, it is horrid! As a movie it would be one of the scariest sci-fi horror flicks made. In stead of Invasion of the Body Snatchers, it would be Invasion of the Mind Snatcher. I sometimes consider that it maybe away of getting attention or a persecution complex. But that cannot be true either, because they hide it. They hide it because they know, that if people really knew what predestinationists believe, they would not want to have anything to do with it. That is why they very carefully hide their beliefs from their congregations. Churches that believe that Free-will is somewhere between sacrilegious or anti-God.

It makes people wonder what kind of heart they have? Just like the abortion doctor that gets up in the morning, cleans up, has breakfast and goes to work each day to murder a few babies. What kind of heart could do that? But predestinationism is a million times worse than that, because when you put it in motion, you describe and worship a god that does that to millions of men, women, and children. Babies damned to hell before they are born. Damning them to hell by no fault of their own, no hope, no mercy, no escape! It is like Satan has given himself a guaranteed quota. What kind of heart could bend a knee to that god? What kind of people think this is good? Is it all about feeling special? The elect, is that worth it? To believe this is right is hideous! Look in history, those that thought they were the elect were the worst of people. And it is not just the Nazis! Thinking that they are above somebody, warps your mind.

If Satan had a Bible in his lap, what scriptures would he quote? Condemnation, judgment, negativity, hate? If Satan had a Bible in his lap, what Christian denomination would he form? Schemer that he is, he would search the scriptures for scriptures that he could use against God… Predestination, let us make it a constant reality! God is a horrific puppet master that enslaves all humanity with no hope of escape! Damns them to Hell before they born!

He would push judgment before creation and predestine the innocent to hell, while laughing at those that are not damned because no good they did was of their own merit, but rather forced by him. In this church of Satan, no good would matter, only evil. Faith, love, compassion, prayer, grace, forgiveness, kindness, church attendance and good deeds would not matter or show character or true faith because they are all puppets on strings, every movement and thought being forced upon them, dummies of the satanic puppet master. He would suggest the Bible proves that the Christian God is a sadistic mind control monster so it would turn people away from Christianity!

From the outside it seems this religion replaces God with Satan, but of course that is not true. Predestinationists have hijacked our God to demonize Him much like the Moslems. No heresy can come close to equaling this. It slanders God in the worst way! Portraying him with the character of Satan!

excuse me but predestination is a bibical term, it is found in the bible. to say it is horrid, or makes God like satan is being

Now, If you hate a certain defenition of what some people think it means, that is one thing, but to say it is satanic. Well If it is satanic, I guess the bible is satanic

 

[Grailhunter]

excuse me but predestination is a bibical term, it is found in the bible. to say it is horrid, or makes God like satan is being

Now, If you hate a certain defenition of what some people think it means, that is one thing, but to say it is satanic. Well If it is satanic, I guess the bible is satanic

Hate and predestination are biblical terms.
While God has the ability to kill, afflict, and predestine, He does not make it a norm. What religion would Satan form? What kind of person would promote a religion that suggest God has all the characteristics of Satan? And again, what does Satan do in your religion? You have put Satan out of business with God taking his place. He can go on vacation because according to you, God has provided him a guaranteed quota! And the ones that are saved are mind controlled puppets, with no will of their own. Horrid horrid religion for a horrid people!

 

[Candidus]

Nope I never said this or suggested this

Can you please for once try to listen to what I have said. It gets old


You seem to have forgotten how the justice syste works

When a defendant who is charged with a crime, sentenced and put to death, Who was paid that death?

Stop trying so hard to find holes in my thinking, and sit for a few minutes and study..



I do not care. the term was used and carried by all people who had paid their debt to society for their crimes, it was a legal term which means they had paid they debt in full. and could not be charged for the same crime again.

Legal terms are all through scripture. You should study them,,


you misrepresent what I say so much, I have probably answered your question but you do not see it because you are not reading a thing I say, Your just trying to poke holes in it. and not doing a very good job at it.

You do so much to try to prove the Western Criminal justice system which has NOTHING to do with the Bible and Atonement.

Even as you do that, you apply things that do not exist and are even self-contradictory to the Western justice system.

You cannot answer why the Bible never says anything about Atonement being a payment for sins, but you feverishly presume it anyway.

You cannot answer why those things that would exist if there was a payment for sins is completely absent in Scripture, or why God avoids it.

Observing the blur of self-contradiction and total lack of Biblical support you give for your assumptions is open season. It is hard to find the substance through the size of the gaping hole of your presumptions. Your theory is not from the Bible. It is not rational or logical even in your secular court examples. I have no choice but to conclude that you will not answer the questions I posted, because you cannot answer them Biblically, or even logically.

1). Why is it that the Bible never says (your dogmatic assertion) that the Atonement is a "payment for sins"?

2). If such a payment exists, who does the Bible say was "paid"?

3). When was this presumed "payment" made in time?

4). If we presume that "sins are paid for" in Atonement, then precisely, who's sins were "paid for"?

You cannot find a Biblical answer for #1 and #2, because the Bible never says either of these things... they only exist in people's wild imagination.

Using the fiction you have created about sins being paid for, how you would answer #3 and #4 will tell us much! It will conclude that you either argue for Double Predestination, or Universalism. There are no possible alternatives! If you do not conclude Double Predestination or Universalism, you are either hopelessly deluded and illogical, or you really do not believe that the Atonement was a literal "payment for sins."

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Hate and predestination are biblical terms.
While God has the ability to kill, afflict, and predestine, He does not make it a norm. What religion would Satan form? What kind of person would promote a religion that suggest God has all the characteristics of Satan? And again, what does Satan do in your religion? You have put Satan out of business with God taking his place. He can go on vacation because according to you, God has provided him a guaranteed quota! And the ones that are saved are mind controlled puppets, with no will of their own. Horrid horrid religion for a horrid people!

View attachment 9308

God predestined us to be adopted as sons and daughters and to be conformed to his image

Thats the word of God

If you do not like it. Take it up with God

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You do so much to try to prove the Western Criminal justice system which has NOTHING to do with the Bible and Atonement.

Even as you do that, you apply things that do not exist and are even self-contradictory to the Western justice system.

You cannot answer why the Bible never says anything about Atonement being a payment for sins, but you feverishly presume it anyway.

You cannot answer why those things that would exist if there was a payment for sins is completely absent in Scripture, or why God avoids it.

Observing the blur of self-contradiction and total lack of Biblical support you give for your assumptions is open season. It is hard to find the substance through the size of the gaping hole of your presumptions. Your theory is not from the Bible. It is not rational or logical even in your secular court examples. I have no choice but to conclude that you will not answer the questions I posted, because you cannot answer them Biblically, or even logically.

1). Why is it that the Bible never says (your dogmatic assertion) that the Atonement is a "payment for sins"?

2). If such a payment exists, who does the Bible say was "paid"?

3). When was this presumed "payment" made in time?

4). If we presume that "sins are paid for" in Atonement, then precisely, who's sins were "paid for"?

You cannot find a Biblical answer for #1 and #2, because the Bible never says either of these things... they only exist in people's wild imagination.

Using the fiction you have created about sins being paid for, how you would answer #3 and #4 will tell us much! It will conclude that you either argue for Double Predestination, or Universalism. There are no possible alternatives! If you do not conclude Double Predestination or Universalism, you are either hopelessly deluded and illogical, or you really do not believe that the Atonement was a literal "payment for sins."

Good day sir

Good luck trying to earn your way to salvation

When you are ready to listen to what I am saying, and stop trying to say I am saying stuff I have never said. come talk to me. Until then, I have no desire to continue with this one way discussion

 

[Candidus]

excuse me but predestination is a bibical term, it is found in the bible. to say it is horrid, or makes God like satan is being

Now, If you hate a certain defenition of what some people think it means, that is one thing, but to say it is satanic. Well If it is satanic, I guess the bible is satanic

Predestination is a Biblical term; that is not used one time to indicate the predestination of a single individual to either Heaven or Hell! To say otherwise is Satanic!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Predestination is a Biblical term; that is not used one time to indicate the predestination of a single individual to either Heaven or Hell! To say otherwise is Satanic!

Romans 8:29 [Full Chapter]
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

So we can be conformed to Gods image, but that does not mean we will see eternity with Christ?

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

So we can be justified and glorified but still end up in hell?

Ephesians 1:5
having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

So God predetermining that we would be adopted as his children, Means we can still go to hell

Ephesians 1
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

So being predestined that we who entrust our faith in Christ and given the seal of the spirit. until ressurection day, Means we can still go to hell

That my friend is satanic!

 

[Grailhunter]

God predestined us to be adopted as sons and daughters and to be conformed to his image

Thats the word of God

If you do not like it. Take it up with God

What good is salvation if you are the son of a demonic puppet master god?
What good is salvation if you have no free-will?
Why have children to put them in a reality of mind control?
Why promote a religion that places God as Satan and Satan can sit back and reap the benefits?
Again what does Satan do in your religion?
You say that God is the one that damns people and the saved are left with no free-will.
It is a religion that slanders a Good God!

 

[Grailhunter]

Romans 8:29 [Full Chapter]
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

So we can be conformed to Gods image, but that does not mean we will see eternity with Christ?

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

So we can be justified and glorified but still end up in hell?

Ephesians 1:5
having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

So God predetermining that we would be adopted as his children, Means we can still go to hell

Ephesians 1
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

So being predestined that we who entrust our faith in Christ and given the seal of the spirit. until ressurection day, Means we can still go to hell

That my friend is satanic!

 

[Candidus]

God predestined us to be adopted as sons and daughters and to be conformed to his image

Thats the word of God

If you do not like it. Take it up with God

Not Predestined to salvation!

"Us," the Church, the Body of Christ are Predestined to be adopted as sons and daughters, and be conformed to His image!

Who and when will we be adopted? "Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies." Romans 8:23 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." Rev. 21:7. Notice that the status of final and complete son-ship and adoption is not finalized until the future.

Who is it that "overcomes"? The one who is "conformed to His image"! Who is going to have their adoption finalized? Those that have the first fruits of the Spirit that groan eagerly for our adoption as sons!

If you don't overcome, you will not be a son; if you are not conformed to the image of His Son, you are not Predestined. If you have the best, choicest fruit of the Spirit and agonize for that moment of our adoption when our bodies are redeemed... we will be God's sons and daughters.

 

[Candidus]

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What good is salvation if you are the son of a demonic puppet master god?
What good is salvation if you have no free-will?
Why have children to put them in a reality of mind control?
Why promote a religion that places God as Satan and Satan can sit back and reap the benefits?
Again what does Satan do in your religion?
You say that God is the one that damns people and the saved are left with no free-will.
It is a religion that slanders a Good God!

View attachment 9309

I believe man has free will

I also believe in predestination.

the rest of this post was in a sense out there, especially since you just assumed I as a fatalist who believes in double predestination. which i do not

way to go!

I will await your apology

 

[Eternally Grateful]

View attachment 9310

Again,

I do not believe in Fatalism or double predestination. And I am a believer in free will

Keep this up and I will take action

 

[Candidus]

Good day sir

Good luck trying to earn your way to salvation

When you are ready to listen to what I am saying, and stop trying to say I am saying stuff I have never said. come talk to me. Until then, I have no desire to continue with this one way discussion

Obviously, you have a theory, and if God does not agree, you really do not care.
Why is this fiction so important to you?

1). Why is it that the Bible never says (your dogmatic assertion) that the Atonement is a "payment for sins"?

2). If such a payment exists, who does the Bible say was "paid"?

3). When was this presumed "payment" made in time?

4). If we presume that "sins are paid for" in Atonement, then precisely, who's sins were "paid for"?

You cannot find a Biblical answer for #1 and #2, because the Bible never says either of these things... they only exist in people's wild imagination.

Using the fiction you have created about sins being paid for, how you would answer #3 and #4 will tell us much! It will conclude that you either argue for Double Predestination, or Universalism. There are no possible alternatives! If you do not conclude Double Predestination or Universalism, you are either hopelessly deluded and illogical, or you really do not believe that the Atonement was a literal "payment for sins."

 

[Grailhunter]

Again,

I do not believe in Fatalism or double predestination. And I am a believer in free will

Keep this up and I will take action

So why are you defending predestinationism?

 

[Renniks]

Matthew 22:14 (NKJV)
14 For many are called, but few are CHOSEN."

“Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’

5 “But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

Few are chosen because few respond to his invitation by coming to his table.

 

[Renniks]

Obviously, you have a theory, and if God does not agree, you really do not care.
Why is this fiction so important to you?

1). Why is it that the Bible never says (your dogmatic assertion) that the Atonement is a "payment for sins"?

2). If such a payment exists, who does the Bible say was "paid"?

3). When was this presumed "payment" made in time?

4). If we presume that "sins are paid for" in Atonement, then precisely, who's sins were "paid for"?

You cannot find a Biblical answer for #1 and #2, because the Bible never says either of these things... they only exist in people's wild imagination.

Using the fiction you have created about sins being paid for, how you would answer #3 and #4 will tell us much! It will conclude that you either argue for Double Predestination, or Universalism. There are no possible alternatives! If you do not conclude Double Predestination or Universalism, you are either hopelessly deluded and illogical, or you really do not believe that the Atonement was a literal "payment for sins."

" knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot."
1st Peter 1:18... Sure sounds like a payment to me.