Saved Or Predestined ???

[kcnalp]

Yes, God made everyone of us knowing exactly who would burn in Hell forever and ever. He didn't have to ask our permission.

 

[Renniks]

Romans 8:29 [Full Chapter]
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

So we can be conformed to Gods image, but that does not mean we will see eternity with Christ?

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

So we can be justified and glorified but still end up in hell?

Ephesians 1:5
having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

So God predetermining that we would be adopted as his children, Means we can still go to hell

Ephesians 1
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

So being predestined that we who entrust our faith in Christ and given the seal of the spirit. until ressurection day, Means we can still go to hell

That my friend is satanic!

Do you understand what corporate election is?

 

[Renniks]

Yes, God made everyone of us knowing exactly who would burn in Hell forever and ever. He didn't have to ask our permission.

God's knowledge does not cause anyone to go to hell. Thier choice causes that. We have been endowed with freewill. Within limits, we create our own reality.

 

[FollowHim]

I think Jesus said it best
Matthew 12:31
“Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
Jesus said , it is finished (tetellisti, literally paid in full)
Does not make sense please rephrase
lol.. The penalty of sin is death
This the ONLY payment which can pay for our sins
you will either pay for it with your death (in revelations, it is called the second death) or you will entrust Jesus death to "cover" your sins.
There is no other option

This term "cover" sins seems to be used exclusively in a way to not resolve, purify, cleanse, heal, restore but ignore.
It is interesting to see where in scripture covering is used and where cleansing, purification, washing is used.

In all the cases I can see, cleansing, purification and washing gets rid of sins and their harm in the believer.
It is this effect the apostles testified to, that their consciences were clean, guilt was no more and their behaviour changed.

I was brought up on the idea in Christ, you knew a true believer because they changed, a new creation, a joy of love in Christ, a shinning light of His work in a sinner who has become a saint. Scripture seems to support this, to the degree Paul wanted all disciples of Jesus to shine like stars, pure, blameless without even a hint of sin.

Ofcourse to those who believe this is impossible, it must just by hypocrisy or Paul was joking.
But it appears not, especially with the exhortation to "aim at perfection"

9 We are glad whenever we are weak but you are strong; and our prayer is for your perfection.
2 Cor 13:9

I wonder how many pray for their brothers and sisters in Christ to become perfect. God bless you

 

[Grailhunter]

I believe man has free will

I also believe in predestination.

the rest of this post was in a sense out there, especially since you just assumed I as a fatalist who believes in double predestination. which i do not

way to go!

I will await your apology

Some people cannot put their thoughts in writing very well. Choose your words carefully. We all know that God has the power of predestination, but it has nothing to do with salvation. Christ is a choice. Don't ever tell me otherwise!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So why are you defending predestinationism?

I am not defending fatalism

I am defending what God in the bible wrote (we have been predestined)

Your argument is with Calvinistic thinking, people who deny free will and double predestination.

Not against me, because i reject those ideas

So what you need to do is object to calvinism, or double predestination. and stop attacking predestination (single), which is in the word of God

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Some people cannot put their thoughts in writing very well. Choose your words carefully. We all know that God has the power of predestination, but it has nothing to do with salvation. Christ is a choice. Don't ever tell me otherwise!

Christ is a choice

And God, Before time began, Chose to predestine that whoever believed in the name of Jesus in their own free will. would be conformed to the image of God. Would be adopted into his family, Would be sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise and given every spiritual blessing under the heavens

You want to say predestination denys free will. YOUR WRONG! Biblical Predestination is BASED on Gods Will

What is Gods will

Whoever sees and believes (free will choosing) WILL BE SAVED

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Do you understand what corporate election is?

I have heard it, but never gave it much thought, what is it?

 

[Grailhunter]

I am not defending fatalism

I am defending what God in the bible wrote (we have been predestined)

Your argument is with Calvinistic thinking, people who deny free will and double predestination.

Not against me, because i reject those ideas

So what you need to do is object to calvinism, or double predestination. and stop attacking predestination (single), which is in the word of God

Single / double can be a masquerade. Calling and capture are two different things. God may bring Christ to our attention, but we chose to believe with free-will. Those that deny Christ earn their fate with free-will.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Single / double can be a masquerade. Calling and capture are two different things. God may bring Christ to our attention, but we chose to believe with free-will. Those that deny Christ earn their fate with free-will.

this is your last warning my friend

How many times do I have to tell you that in my view, WE FREELY CHOSE TO BELIEVE WITH FREE WILL

before you finally stop telling me I am denying it?

 

[Grailhunter]

Christ is a choice

And God, Before time began, Chose to predestine that whoever believed in the name of Jesus in their own free will. would be conformed to the image of God. Would be adopted into his family, Would be sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise and given every spiritual blessing under the heavens

You want to say predestination denys free will. YOUR WRONG! Biblical Predestination is BASED on Gods Will

What is Gods will

Whoever sees and believes (free will choosing) WILL BE SAVED

The art of talking out the side of your mouth.

 

[Grailhunter]

I warned you

 

[Candidus]

" knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot."
1st Peter 1:18... Sure sounds like a payment to me.

Sorry Renniks, you are not following the argument;

I do not care what anything "sounds like," I am looking for confirmation on an assertion that the Atonement is a "payment for sins." People latch onto such fictions to justify all kinds of unbiblical "theology." As witnessed, they do not care what the Bible has to say; they have a Theory!

There is no denial or debate that the Blood of Christ purchases His Church or redeems the Body, but none of this proves or puts the Atonement as a "Payment for sins" into the Bible! This a a metaphorical "cost" and "purchase." The devil was not given a Death Certificate and had to let certain people go, or any such fiction of the imagination. It is like saying on Veterans Day we pay respect for those who "paid the ultimate price" to defend our freedoms. Yes, there was a "cost," but it was not a commercial transaction where the formula was "X- number of soldiers deaths = freedom." Killing a specific number of solders does not "buy" freedom. Because of these soldiers sacrifice, the price they "paid," we are now and remain free.

What I usually see is inconsistency; using a theory, but denying the results of that theory. Most often I see with the use of that Theory, that people attempt to deny the results of the Theory they claim based upon the Bible. They want the results they like that are demanded of a payment for sins, but they do not want the whole inevitable package.

Example: They like that they can "Sin and Win," that they are Eternally Secure because... "My sins were paid for." "God cannot punish the same sin twice!" "All my past sins were future sins 2000 years ago… so all my future sins are already paid for!"

What many ignore is, if this is true, when were these "sins paid for"? "Well, on the Cross!" they say!

But when I ask "Whose sin is "paid for"... they ignore the question. Because if your sins were "paid for" you were saved before you were born! You were never "lost" in order to be "saved!" They want the imaginary assurance of sin paid in the past, but do not want the inevitable results of "sins paid for on the Cross" when it comes to Double Predestination.

If everyone's sin was "paid for" on the Cross, it is automatic... no one goes to Hell.

If only special people had their "sins paid for on the Cross" then we have Double Predestination. The Lucky Lotto people that Jesus paid for their sins will benefit and go to Heaven; the rest to be tortured in an Eternal Hell by the pure virtue of God's apathy.

If Jesus "paid for our sins," all appeals in Scripture to believe or have faith are a lie; they are not necessary (you were saved 2000 years ago!). All invocations to forsake sin, to repent, to be holy are meaningless.... that is why with those who hold the theory tend to look at being half-regenerated, half-holy, and only partially Converted or Born-Again as the "normal" Christian life, because a half-holy Christian is no different than a zero-holy Christian in God's eyes. God no longer sees our sins, or if He does, He only winks at them now. But let your Neighbor whose sins are not "paid for" commit your favorite sins, and whoa! God is livid! His wrathful thunderbolts come crashing down with threats of Eternal Damnation!

People commonly speak of a "payment for sins" in a way that our sin cost Jesus His life on the Cross so we could be forgiven of our sins. Many deny a Commercial Transaction openly, but apply Commercial Transaction in other doctrines when it is convenient. This is their illogical side-step of following the inevitable conclusion of the doctrine they are only occasionally using.

You cannot use a Theory as the bedrock of your theology and end up believing right. It is hard to come out in the end as a truly "Biblical" Christian when we start wrong. You cannot pick and choose, meaning.., you can choose your theory, but you cannot choose the results! You cannot ignore everything in Scripture and bowdlerize it when it does not agree with your presuppositions. Equally, you cannot look Bible passages and create alternate meanings apart from the context, and claim that they prove your theory. Appeals to "cost," "redemption" or any other term, says absolutely nothing about the Atonement being a "payment for sins." Either the Bible says it, or it doesn't! No one has ever found it... but they interpret every other passage in the light of what God never said!

 

[Renniks]

I have heard it, but never gave it much thought, what is it?

Election in the Old Testament is predominantly applied corporately to a people, not to individuals. The Hebrew word for "elect" (bahir) is normally used in the plural, and thus refers collectively of Israel.

Here's a definition from soteriology 101:

5) Election to salvation in Christ is offered to all (Jn 3:16-17; 1Ti 2:4-6; Tit 2:11; Heb 2:9) but becomes actual for particular persons contingent on their repentance and faith as they accept God’s gift of salvation in Christ (Eph 2:8; 3:17; cf. Ac 20:21; Ro 1:16; 4:16). At the point of faith, the believer is incorporated into Christ’s elect body (the church) by the Holy Spirit (1 Co 12:13), thereby becoming one of the elect. Thus, there is both God’s initiative and our response in election (see Ro 8:29, note; 2 Pet 1:1-11).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Election in the Old Testament is predominantly applied corporately to a people, not to individuals. The Hebrew word for "elect" (bahir) is normally used in the plural, and thus refers collectively of Israel.

Yes, As paul used the term in romans 11 to signify all of Israel.(saved Israel and blinded or unsaved Israel included)

Here's a definition from soteriology 101:

5) Election to salvation in Christ is offered to all (Jn 3:16-17; 1Ti 2:4-6; Tit 2:11; Heb 2:9) but becomes actual for particular persons contingent on their repentance and faith as they accept God’s gift of salvation in Christ (Eph 2:8; 3:17; cf. Ac 20:21; Ro 1:16; 4:16). At the point of faith, the believer is incorporated into Christ’s elect body (the church) by the Holy Spirit (1 Co 12:13), thereby becoming one of the elect. Thus, there is both God’s initiative and our response in election (see Ro 8:29, note; 2 Pet 1:1-11).

Yes I would agree with this, This is how God predetermines (predestines) who would be saved, by the fact they will have faith in him

 

[Renniks]

Sorry Renniks, you are not following the argument;

I do not care what anything "sounds like," I am looking for confirmation on an assertion that the Atonement is a "payment for sins." People latch onto such fictions to justify all kinds of unbiblical "theology." As witnessed, they do not care what the Bible has to say; they have a Theory!

There is no denial or debate that the Blood of Christ purchases His Church or redeems the Body, but none of this proves or puts the Atonement as a "Payment for sins" into the Bible! This a a metaphorical "cost" and "purchase." The devil was not given a Death Certificate and had to let certain people go, or any such fiction of the imagination. It is like saying on Veterans Day we pay respect for those who "paid the ultimate price" to defend our freedoms. Yes, there was a "cost," but it was not a commercial transaction where the formula was "X- number of soldiers deaths = freedom." Killing a specific number of solders does not "buy" freedom. Because of these soldiers sacrifice, the price they "paid," we are now and remain free.

What I usually see is inconsistency; using a theory, but denying the results of that theory. Most often I see with the use of that Theory, that people attempt to deny the results of the Theory they claim based upon the Bible. They want the results they like that are demanded of a payment for sins, but they do not want the whole inevitable package.

Example: They like that they can "Sin and Win," that they are Eternally Secure because... "My sins were paid for." "God cannot punish the same sin twice!" "All my past sins were future sins 2000 years ago… so all my future sins are already paid for!"

What many ignore is, if this is true, when were these "sins paid for"? "Well, on the Cross!" they say!

But when I ask "Whose sin is "paid for"... they ignore the question. Because if your sins were "paid for" you were saved before you were born! You were never "lost" in order to be "saved!" They want the imaginary assurance of sin paid in the past, but do not want the inevitable results of "sins paid for on the Cross" when it comes to Double Predestination.

If everyone's sin was "paid for" on the Cross, it is automatic... no one goes to Hell.

If only special people had their "sins paid for on the Cross" then we have Double Predestination. The Lucky Lotto people that Jesus paid for their sins will benefit and go to Heaven; the rest to be tortured in an Eternal Hell by the pure virtue of God's apathy.

If Jesus "paid for our sins," all appeals in Scripture to believe or have faith are a lie; they are not necessary (you were saved 2000 years ago!). All invocations to forsake sin, to repent, to be holy are meaningless.... that is why with those who hold the theory tend to look at being half-regenerated, half-holy, and only partially Converted or Born-Again as the "normal" Christian life, because a half-holy Christian is no different than a zero-holy Christian in God's eyes. God no longer sees our sins, or if He does, He only winks at them now. But let your Neighbor whose sins are not "paid for" commit your favorite sins, and whoa! God is livid! His wrathful thunderbolts come crashing down with threats of Eternal Damnation!

People commonly speak of a "payment for sins" in a way that our sin cost Jesus His life on the Cross so we could be forgiven of our sins. Many deny a Commercial Transaction openly, but apply Commercial Transaction in other doctrines when it is convenient. This is their illogical side-step of following the inevitable conclusion of the doctrine they are only occasionally using.

You cannot use a Theory as the bedrock of your theology and end up believing right. It is hard to come out in the end as a truly "Biblical" Christian when we start wrong. You cannot pick and choose, meaning.., you can choose your theory, but you cannot choose the results! You cannot ignore everything in Scripture and bowdlerize it when it does not agree with your presuppositions. Equally, you cannot look Bible passages and create alternate meanings apart from the context, and claim that they prove your theory. Appeals to "cost," "redemption" or any other term, says absolutely nothing about the Atonement being a "payment for sins." Either the Bible says it, or it doesn't! No one has ever found it... but they interpret every other passage in the light of what God never said!

So, just curious, what theory of atonement you are promoting? What did the cross accomplish? I find the penal substitution theory to be lacking in completeness, but not totally without truth. I don't know what is hard to understand about a payment that requires an action on the individuals part to be activated. Similar to having all your debts paid by a benevolent relative, but being required to activate the account yourself. This seems to remove the necessity of it only being applied to certain individuals from before birth.

As far as perfectly holy Christians, well there aren't any, but certainly more was paid for than just our sins.

 

[Renniks]

Yes, As paul used the term in romans 11 to signify all of Israel.(saved Israel and blinded or unsaved Israel included)


Yes I would agree with this, This is how God predetermines (predestines) who would be saved, by the fact they will have faith in him

So, it's not individual election at all. God isn't choosing certain individuals before creation for salvation.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So, it's not individual election at all. God isn't choosing certain individuals before creation for salvation.

i disagree

He chose me before the foundation of the world to be conformed to his image. t be sealed by his spirit to be adopted as his son

These things do not fit a corporate election theory

OT Israel fits the theory, But the election in the OT included saved and unsaved people.. It was a nation corporately chosen to be set aside for Gods purpose.

 

[Renniks]

He chose me before the foundation of the world to be conformed to his image. t be

He chose you " in him". In other words, he decided that whoever is in him will be elected to eternal life.

 

[Grailhunter]

i disagree

He chose me before the foundation of the world to be conformed to his image. t be sealed by his spirit to be adopted as his son

These things do not fit a corporate election theory

OT Israel fits the theory, But the election in the OT included saved and unsaved people.. It was a nation corporately chosen to be set aside for Gods purpose.

It the same old stuff! Are you sure it was not a death ray!
God's intent was to demean humanity?
To produce a eternal puppet show?
They love me because I forced them!
I'm elect and better than others because God chose me!
God creates humans....hurts some and rewards others. Where is the love in that? Where is the intelligence in that?
A fiery hell of screaming humans. Eternal torture, planned for them from the very beginning. Does He eat popcorn while he watches that? This what He wanted, this is what He planned. Do you think He enjoys it?