So, no reason that can be known equals arbitrary, especially since you can't say it's from any merit in the person and be consistent with individual election.
Saved Or Predestined ???
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Everyone is a tare unless they accept Christ. You have to believe that to become a Christian.
We are all sown by the devil because he's the prince of this world and has his hooks in every person old enough to sin knowingly. Unless we have been reborn, we are all tares.
Perhaps you see it be "So close". But even "so close" does not make it fatalism EG.
As for me, it's far from fatalism, at least as far as my knowledge of what fatalism is.
God raising Pharaoh to be the person he should be, without forcing him or "pulling his strings like a robot", or with Pharaoh doing everything of his own free choosing ~ is that fatalism?
When God transforms the Christian into the image of Jesus Christ, with the Christian doing everything of his own free choosing ~ is that fatalism?
Tong
R0159
It is if the only real choice available is the one God already made for you. You keep saying goats can't become sheep, but God converts goats into sheep ever time they accept his sacrifice for them. If one is born a sheep, there's no Free Will involved in the process. There's only the illusion of choice.
There still a problem with that belief. I goes contrary to the teaching of Jesus Christ on the parable of the wheat and the tares. Either you are right and Jesus is wrong or Jesus is right and you are wrong.
The problem is that, Jesus said He sowed good seeds, wheat, who are the sons of the kingdom. So, that directly goes against your teaching there that we are all sown by the devil, as tares.
Needless to say, I'll chose the doctrine of Jesus Christ every time over any one else's doctrine.
Tong
R0160
Sure, they are sown by Jesus at the time of thier conversion. We are sown with sin as soon as we are old enough to consciously sin.
Renniks: It is if the only real choice available is the one God already made for you.
That is no choice you are presenting there, is it not? And God making the choice for you? That is totally different from what I said. Here's what I said:
God raising Pharaoh to be the person he should be, without forcing him or "pulling his strings like a robot", or with Pharaoh doing everything of his own free choosing
When God transforms the Christian into the image of Jesus Christ, with the Christian doing everything of his own free choosing
There is real free choice there in what I said Renniks.
Renniks: You keep saying goats can't become sheep, but God converts goats into sheep ever time they accept his sacrifice for them.
I keep saying that because you keep saying that they do when scriptures does not say they do. Besides, had you ever seen or heard of a one born, being goat, that later became a sheep? I've seen and heard of none and I'm sure it's the same with you.
Here you say yet again that God converts goats into sheep. Please show in scriptures where we can read that. Unless you can, that is only your own making and make believe.
Tong
R0161
Read the parable Renniks before you make yet another weak defense of your out of scriptures position.
Matthew 13:"The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.
Tong
R0162
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
It appears here that you believe that grace is the get-out-of-jail-free card of Monopoly. That is part of the false teaching that the Church came up with while resisting the Truth of freedom from sin - not just punishment. You quote it quite well.
Grace is not unmerited favor, it is the power of God that He favors us with. That is why when we are weak, the Holy Spirit in us - His grace - strengthens us, and all we need. God's Power. This power is not of ourselves, lest we boast, but from God.
His Grace, His Power is what was missing in the Law, the Old Covenant. That is why the New Covenant has better promises. Jesus died and was resurrected so that we could die to our old carnal nature, and walk in newness of life - walk in the Spirit.
One of the Jewish writing styles is called a parallelism. A truth repeated twice using another word or phrase. Part of it will be the same identifying it as a parallelism, but the other part will be different in the two, clarifying what is meant. Here are two. In the first one, the apostle confirms that grace is power. Not a get out of jail free card, unmerited favor that the Church has brainwashed us with. This is the number one deception in the Church - Satan redefining GRACE. It is the power of God that enables us to minister effectively toward salvation with Truth - the narrow road; and not ineffectively with seducing definitions - the wide path.
Acts 4:33
And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.
1 Corinthians 1:7-8
eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
You're comparing Hitler to God?
Exodus 10:1 (NKJV)
1 Now the LORD said to Moses, "Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his servants, that I may show these signs of Mine before him,
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Comparing predestinationists and Calvinists to Hitler....you know the elect! The special ones! A religion that is somewhere between satanism and an attack on all that is good. The Moslems hijacked our God but at least they had the decency to change His name before they started doing evil.
You do understand that this isn't saying some are born tares and some are born wheat, correct?
It is " like" a field but it's not literally a field. God sows his true followers in the church and the devil sows false religious people. It has nothing whatsoever to do with whether some are destined to be saved or not.
Romans 9:16-18
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
Pharaoh hardened his own heart first.
Exodus 9:12 is the first time that the Torah tells us that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, but we see evidence of Pharaoh impacting his own heart five times earlier in this portion. Twice (Exodus 7:13 and Exodus 22) in response to Moses’ challenges and requests, the Torah tells us, his heart “hardened.” And three times after that (Exodus 8:11, Exodus 15 and Exodus 28), we’re told that Pharaoh “made his heart heavy.”
Sure God knew what kind of man pharaoh would be, and played his cards accordingly.
Just think what God could have done with a soft hearted pharaoh.
You're totally ignoring the FACT that God made everyone as it pleased Him, knowing who would burn in Hell forever and ever.
Proverbs 16:4 (NKJV)
4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
Lol, are you made for hell fire then? How would you even know?
The assertion that “He has made the wicked for the day of evil,” does not mean that He created any one for punishment—i.e., predestined him for destruction. It only teaches that even the wicked are subservient to God’s eternal purposes; that Pharaoh, for instance, by his rebellion could not change God’s plans for the deliverance of His people, but only gave Him a chance to show His power, justice, and goodness.
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