The Absurdity of Preterism

[ScottA]

Back to the Original Post...

The "absurdity of Pretarism" is not unique to Pretarism, but consistent among all who "observe days and months and seasons and years", i.e., times, or calendars in chronological terms...i.e., "the weak and beggarly elements" of this world.

Who among us is not guilty of keeping a worldly calendar?

Conversely, if we are to "seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness", which is "the same yesterday, today, and forever" and "without shadow of turning", then we will come to know the truth of God rather than the would-be truth and confusion of the world.

 

[Naomi25]

Over 500,000 people died as a result of the Iraq war, a war brought about largely by lying and fear-mongering from Dispies. And, the cost of that drive to war resulted in a significant and permanent jump in hostility to Christianity in America, because of the loss of Christian influence. Everything from Dispies follows this pattern of disloyalty to the cause of Christ. Jesus told the Jews that they're of their father the devil, and Dispies say they have the same god as the Jews. They're not within the body of Christ; they're just within the walls of our churches.

Before the Dispies took over the Southern Baptist church, the SBC had never passed a resolution favorable to any war, not even WWII. After the Dispies took over, they pushed for the Iraq war and even passed a resolution patting themselves on the back for starting war. Before Dispies took over, the SBC never passed a resolution supporting Israel, not in 1948 or 1988. After Dispies took over, the SBC passed a resolution that amounted to worshiping Israel. The cost of that that is now liberals are taking over the SBC, because the Dispies destroyed the credibility of the conservatives.

I know Dispensationalism by its lies and its rotten fruit.

Now...I get the idea of saying Dispensationalism is mistaken, because I believe it is. But brother, the vitriol in this post tells me that perhaps there is something underneath all this that is leading to your hatred of them.
Because let's get something straight...I know many...many "dispies", and while their doctrine on the end times might be mistaken, they still hold to orthodoxy on salvational matters. That makes them YOUR brothers and sisters in Christ as well as mine. They are wonderful, Godly people, many of whom would give you the shirt off their back should you need it. So fruit? Yes, I suppose we could talk about fruit and who is showing what...
I don't know you, I acknowledge that, but your post bothers me in its anger towards people you don't know either. I understand you disliking a system. But should you not then consider those Christians within it those you need to call out? Rather than condemn?

 

[Naomi25]

Christ's Revelation might be better? i mean being as how you cannot Quote Christ's return anywhere

I'm not going to get into a big back and forth with you, as that never leads us anywhere good. But I'll reply and attempt to, in one answer, explain how I think you are just plain mistaken on this issue.
If I'm not mistaken, you believe that Jesus will not "return" because he has not left, the "I'll be with you until the end of the age" thing.

I heartily disagree with that, and here is my biblical proof for it. 1: Jesus clearly left.


“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. -John 14:12

But now I am going to him who sent me, and none of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ -John 16:5

Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. -John 16:7

And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” -Acts 1:9–11

I'm not sure how much clearly Jesus could have made it. "I am going, I am going, I go away"..."He was taken".
So, what about the "I am with you until the end of the Age" verse? Well, he IS with us, just as the Father is with us...because the Spirit is with us.

Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. -John 7:39

Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves. -John 14:10–11

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, -John 14:16

Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. -John 16:7

When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. -John 16:13–15

The Father, Son and Spirit are so entwined that the presence of the Spirit within us is Christ's promise to be with us forever. Consider the above verses. Jesus told us that it was necessary for him to leave...it was to our benefit for him to leave. For if he didn't, then he could not send the Spirit. John 7:39 says that for us to receive the Spirit, Christ had to be glorified...he had to be seated beside the Father above every rule and power and authority. The Spirit, who can reside within every single believer, points to Christ, glorifies Christ, reveals to us the truth of Christ, and makes known to us the promises of Christ. In him we receive the power of new life. This is the promise that we will never be alone. But clearly, Christ is not on this earth, he left, and is seated above with his Father.

And verses that talk about his visible return?? There are many.


For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. -Matthew 24:27–31

Jesus said to him, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me!” -John 21:22

Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God. -1 Corinthians 4:5

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. -1 Corinthians 15:23

If anyone has no love for the Lord, let him be accursed. Our Lord, come! -1 Corinthians 16:22

and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. -1 Thessalonians 1:10

and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” -Acts 1:11

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. -1 Thessalonians 4:16

Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen. -Revelation 1:7


So, sorry for the verse dump, but I thought it appropriate in this instance. The bible calls us to encourage each other with the promise of his coming (1 Thess 4:13-18) and you seem to me to be doing your best to discourage people with it...
I'm not going to get into a back and forth, but for all the times we've touched at the edges of it, I just thought I would "lay my cards on the table", so to speak. This is why (although the verses above are by no means a comprehensive list of verses that prove this view) I believe what I do, and think you are in error.

 

[Vexatious]

Now...I get the idea of saying Dispensationalism is mistaken, because I believe it is. But brother, the vitriol in this post tells me that perhaps there is something underneath all this that is leading to your hatred of them.

Dispy influence on American Christians has been instrumental in causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people in the middle-east in the last 20 years. And, that Dispy energy directed toward lies and murder has left America open to advancement of tyranny of the Left. Vitriol? Nothing I can say can do justice to the demonic and destructive nature of Dispy doctrine. If Dispies had their way, there would be many millions of innocent people in the middle-east would be killed, instead of just hundreds of thousands.

Because let's get something straight...I know many...many "dispies", and while their doctrine on the end times might be mistaken, they still hold to orthodoxy on salvational matters.

Even if that were true, the most effective lies are mixed with some truth. But, I don't agree that Dispies are orthodox on salvation matters. Dispy doctrine teaches that salvation comes from rejecting Jesus! They teach Jews are God's chosen people. A Jew is someone who has made the choice to reject Jesus. Dispy purists believe Jews don't need Jesus, and all Dispy organizations (outside messianic "Jews" ) reject the idea of evangelizing to Isreali Jews.

That makes them YOUR brothers and sisters in Christ as well as mine. They are wonderful, Godly people, many of whom would give you the shirt off their back should you need it. So fruit? Yes, I suppose we could talk about fruit and who is showing what...

Then lets work to free from those wonderful, godly people from the lies of Satan's teachers like Hagee, Van Impe, and other Zionists by exposing the demonic nature of Dispy doctrine.

 

[bbyrd009]

But I'll reply and attempt to, in one answer, explain how I think you are just plain mistaken on this issue.

really just Quoting "when Jesus returns" or "when Christ returns" one single time would do that wadr

should be in There 100 times, but you can't Quote it once?
you're being played, ok?
bc that is what we want; death, more abundantly

And verses that talk about his visible return?? There are many.

there are zero, and you are just following the herd, reading what you want into the text wadr

so since i don't know what is going to happen tomorrow, and so many will be deceived, i might suggest just approaching it as a possibility, iow stop reading with the premise, the assumption, that so many who sing "when we all get to heaven" and "soon and very soon" share. And if the premise is true then it will still be there when you are done, right, the only thing that will have changed is your mind, if anything. Iow go find all the vv now that assure you that you are the Body of Christ, Christ has never left you nor forsook you, and He is coming down in the exact same way you saw Him go up.

see, it's all "Stay here for the present," and you are the one who hears what you will hear. i would be tickled pink if Jesus appeared in the literal clouds, ok, but imo one cannot study Scripture for even 3 years and keep this opinion for long, the weight of other Scripture just becomes overwhelming imo.

But yes, staying in the camp is certainly easier; many are comforted by singing "When we all get to heaven" i guess right, nevermind that they are not ever going there, No one has ever gone up to heaven except He Who came down from it

we're talking about Knowledge that brings sorrow now ok, and this is a hard choice, i don't even blame you if you prefer to keep singing "soon and very soon," but see how that is also a declaration that one does not have Christ right now ok

 

[bbyrd009]

3Return to Me, and I will return to you
7Return to Me, and I will return to you

Jesus is God right
so there it is, the only two (2, let the reader understand) instances of God returning that i can find at least

 

[Helen]

3Return to Me, and I will return to you
7Return to Me, and I will return to you

Jesus is God right
so there it is, the only two (2, let the reader understand) instances of God returning that i can find at least

It does seem the all returning is on our side not His.
It is spiritual not physical.

I agree Jesus is ever present...in His Spirit.
He, the man who lived and walked here was ONLY for 33 yrs... if we believe more than that we have then the 'snake on the pole'...

Rev gives us a picture of the risen Lamb.
1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks One like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and His hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and His eyes were as a flame of fire,
15 And His feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and His voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And He had in His right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and His countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength..."

Just God trying to show our tiny brains a wee glimpse or the reality of His glory !! A shadow of things to come.

Not quite the picture that people expect to see floating back to earth via a cloud. They will always hold to the blue eyed, soft spoken "gentle Jesus" ..with His sandals and long hair...
That 33 year old Jesus has gone....but nothing makes people more angry as when we take that away from them.

I am blathering....

 

[Nancy]

It does seem the all returning is on our side not His.
It is spiritual not physical.

I agree Jesus is ever present...in His Spirit.
He, the man who lived and walked here was ONLY for 33 yrs... if we believe more than that we have then the 'snake on the pole'...

Rev gives us a picture of the risen Lamb.
1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks One like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and His hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and His eyes were as a flame of fire,
15 And His feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and His voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And He had in His right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and His countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength..."

Just God trying to show our tiny brains a wee glimpse or the reality of His glory !! A shadow of things to come.

Not quite the picture that people expect to see floating back to earth via a cloud. They will always hold to the blue eyed, soft spoken "gentle Jesus" ..with His sandals and long hair...
That 33 year old Jesus has gone....but nothing makes people more angry as when we take that away from them.

I am blathering....

Good post Helen!
"That 33 year old Jesus has gone....but nothing makes people more angry as when we take that away from them. "
IKR? Not to mention those who pray to "baby Jesus"...

 

[Naomi25]

Dispy influence on American Christians has been instrumental in causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people in the middle-east in the last 20 years. And, that Dispy energy directed toward lies and murder has left America open to advancement of tyranny of the Left. Vitriol? Nothing I can say can do justice to the demonic and destructive nature of Dispy doctrine. If Dispies had their way, there would be many millions of innocent people in the middle-east would be killed, instead of just hundreds of thousands.

So you say. But unless you can provide direct, corresponding evidence that these groups of people have pushed directly for these events, it's just hearsay. Which is perilously close to slander to all the "dispies" I know who would have welcomed with love into their homes the very people you say they'd planned to have murdered. You lump them all under this label without knowing them and, apparently, from your comments below, without even knowing what they actually believe. That is wrong.

Even if that were true, the most effective lies are mixed with some truth. But, I don't agree that Dispies are orthodox on salvation matters. Dispy doctrine teaches that salvation comes from rejecting Jesus! They teach Jews are God's chosen people. A Jew is someone who has made the choice to reject Jesus. Dispy purists believe Jews don't need Jesus, and all Dispy organizations (outside messianic "Jews" ) reject the idea of evangelizing to Isreali Jews.

Where on earth did you pull that? Now, I grant you, all "end times" views have their "fringe" supporters that come out with some just bizarre and even heretical ideas. But if you've done any research, or any listening to what the majority of Dispensationalists believe, you would know that what you've written above is bogus. They absolutely believe salvation comes through Christ, and Christ alone. They acknowledge that the Jews (and yes, they claim the Jews are Gods chosen people still, but that's not my point here) will not be saved except through Christ alone. And so preaching to them? Absolutely they think we should. I believe that the "different programs" they see for Jews and Gentiles has to do with time frames, rather than salvational means. Jesus is Messiah for us, as he is for them. No one comes to the Father except through him. I can name you and link you to any number of Dispensationalist teacher that will solidly back that. So I don't know where you are getting your ideas from.

Then lets work to free from those wonderful, godly people from the lies of Satan's teachers like Hagee, Van Impe, and other Zionists by exposing the demonic nature of Dispy doctrine.

Hmmm. Yeah...Hagee and Van Impe. I would not really put them down as solid scholars, so I actually agree with you there. I think it's somewhat distressing when someone starts reading the news to try and determine God's word more than God's word to determine God's word. Is that like the biblical version of ambulance chasers??
But seriously...if those two are where you are drawing your Dispensational doctrine from...don't. And again, I don't disagree with the notion of trying to sway them away from Dispensationalism...as I said from the outset, I think it's a mistaken doctrine. But there is a massive leap between thinking that about an open-handed issue, and accusing them of some of the things you are.

 

[Naomi25]

I would say that apart from where the bible quite clearly talks about Christ's physical return, Christ's own parables echo that fact. How often did he say he would 'come' on a day or hour no one would expect? Why is there a "coming" except that there was first a "going"? The references of such are too many to ignore, even if a specific word is not used. Jesus' parables give clear images of what was going to happen...his return when we were not expecting it. If he were already here, how can his coming be like a thief and we must watch for it? That doesn't make sense at all.
Or what about this parable:

The Parable of the Ten Minas

As they heard these things, he proceeded to tell a parable, because he was near to Jerusalem, and because they supposed that the kingdom of God was to appear immediately. He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return. Calling ten of his servants, he gave them ten minas, and said to them, ‘Engage in business until I come.’ -Luke 19:11–13

The parable is clearly about Christ going to the Father to receive his Kingdom, leaving his 'servants' to be faithful while he is gone. The parable goes on to tell us what he finds when he returns. It's all laid out rather clearly. He goes...he returns. It's no fairy tale or wishful thinking...it's a promise. And I'm happy for it!

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Dispy influence on American Christians has been instrumental in causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people in the middle-east in the last 20 years. And, that Dispy energy directed toward lies and murder has left America open to advancement of tyranny of the Left. Vitriol? Nothing I can say can do justice to the demonic and destructive nature of Dispy doctrine. If Dispies had their way, there would be many millions of innocent people in the middle-east would be killed, instead of just hundreds of thousands.



Even if that were true, the most effective lies are mixed with some truth. But, I don't agree that Dispies are orthodox on salvation matters. Dispy doctrine teaches that salvation comes from rejecting Jesus! They teach Jews are God's chosen people. A Jew is someone who has made the choice to reject Jesus. Dispy purists believe Jews don't need Jesus, and all Dispy organizations (outside messianic "Jews" ) reject the idea of evangelizing to Isreali Jews.



Then lets work to free from those wonderful, godly people from the lies of Satan's teachers like Hagee, Van Impe, and other Zionists by exposing the demonic nature of Dispy doctrine.

I agree with all you said and that's the way that my Dispy mate see it and he wants to kill all the Islamic people, he is into that tosser Hagee as if he were god and says that Jews don't need Jesus.
Not to mention that my dispy mate has no idea who the Jews are, he claims them to be a race like most people have been led to believe by the works of Satan, everyone who has study the OT knows that it has nothing to do with race at all, Cain and who ? were brothers one mob turn away from God, same race ! for crying out loud, it has to do with you are with God or you are against God or you have your own gods, Idols !

So one only who is with Jesus and if they are not abiding in Jesus then they are going to Hell as they are in fact abiding the works of Satan.

I must warn people that there is only Jesus Christ and anything other is of Satan the one who leads the whole world astray.
Supporting Jews is insane not to mention Satanic and it will only lead billions of peoples Souls lost not to mention the murder of beyond anything ever in History, all who take part in this nonsense will have blood on there hands.
The Anti-Christ is within the Churches now peddling this filth and ramping it up in the last 20 years, that it's hardly recognisable, you would be hard pressed to come across a Christian 30 years ago that supported Jews not to mention the claim of calling us Judaic Christians now, as if we were as one with the Jews, no we are Christians period with our roots from the OT, but completely Christian only, we do not mix with anti-Christ Jews at all, but we respect the OT for what it is a blueprint that led us to Jesus Christ the King of Israel in fact.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

I would say that apart from where the bible quite clearly talks about Christ's physical return, Christ's own parables echo that fact. How often did he say he would 'come' on a day or hour no one would expect? Why is there a "coming" except that there was first a "going"? The references of such are too many to ignore, even if a specific word is not used. Jesus' parables give clear images of what was going to happen...his return when we were not expecting it. If he were already here, how can his coming be like a thief and we must watch for it? That doesn't make sense at all.
Or what about this parable:

The Parable of the Ten Minas

As they heard these things, he proceeded to tell a parable, because he was near to Jerusalem, and because they supposed that the kingdom of God was to appear immediately. He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return. Calling ten of his servants, he gave them ten minas, and said to them, ‘Engage in business until I come.’ -Luke 19:11–13

The parable is clearly about Christ going to the Father to receive his Kingdom, leaving his 'servants' to be faithful while he is gone. The parable goes on to tell us what he finds when he returns. It's all laid out rather clearly. He goes...he returns. It's no fairy tale or wishful thinking...it's a promise. And I'm happy for it!

The Bible warns about his physical return in the flesh in fact. you will not see him walking about or say there he goes.

Jesus Christ is the Holy Spirit in fact, you need to be Born Again to understand that because when one is truly Born Again you are Saved in Him, he has come to you to dwell in you and one can never beat that regardless. be it the day of that the whole world knows Jesus coming or not.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Good post Helen!
"That 33 year old Jesus has gone....but nothing makes people more angry as when we take that away from them. "
IKR? Not to mention those who pray to "baby Jesus"...

Nothing wrong with prays to Baby Jesus, when I think of all the abortions I cant help thinking of Baby Jesus, as the same powers of Satan wanted to kill him as well you know.

Do you know that when Jesus was in his mum that someone jumped when touching him ? do you know who that was. not to mention why.

 

[Nancy]

So you say. But unless you can provide direct, corresponding evidence that these groups of people have pushed directly for these events, it's just hearsay. Which is perilously close to slander to all the "dispies" I know who would have welcomed with love into their homes the very people you say they'd planned to have murdered. You lump them all under this label without knowing them and, apparently, from your comments below, without even knowing what they actually believe. That is wrong.



Where on earth did you pull that? Now, I grant you, all "end times" views have their "fringe" supporters that come out with some just bizarre and even heretical ideas. But if you've done any research, or any listening to what the majority of Dispensationalists believe, you would know that what you've written above is bogus. They absolutely believe salvation comes through Christ, and Christ alone. They acknowledge that the Jews (and yes, they claim the Jews are Gods chosen people still, but that's not my point here) will not be saved except through Christ alone. And so preaching to them? Absolutely they think we should. I believe that the "different programs" they see for Jews and Gentiles has to do with time frames, rather than salvational means. Jesus is Messiah for us, as he is for them. No one comes to the Father except through him. I can name you and link you to any number of Dispensationalist teacher that will solidly back that. So I don't know where you are getting your ideas from.




Hmmm. Yeah...Hagee and Van Impe. I would not really put them down as solid scholars, so I actually agree with you there. I think it's somewhat distressing when someone starts reading the news to try and determine God's word more than God's word to determine God's word. Is that like the biblical version of ambulance chasers??
But seriously...if those two are where you are drawing your Dispensational doctrine from...don't. And again, I don't disagree with the notion of trying to sway them away from Dispensationalism...as I said from the outset, I think it's a mistaken doctrine. But there is a massive leap between thinking that about an open-handed issue, and accusing them of some of the things you are.

" I believe that the "different programs" they see for Jews and Gentiles has to do with time frames" Yes, I do believe this too, although I couldn't do the time line study as, I am def. no scholar!
"I think it's somewhat distressing when someone starts reading the news to try and determine God's word more than God's word to determine God's word. Is that like the biblical version of ambulance chasers??" Lol, true-for the most part IMO. I do understand that eschatology scholars/teachers have to keep up with current events if that is their "specialty" so to speak. But then the interpretation...

 

[Naomi25]

The Bible warns about his physical return in the flesh in fact. you will not see him walking about or say there he goes.

If you are talking here about Matt 24:26 (So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.) then you need to put it into context. The verses above it make it abundantly clear that he is talking about false Christ's that will appear and try and fool people...even the elect, if possible. Jesus is saying, IF someone has to tell you "he is over there" or "come and see him", then that clearly is not the coming of Christ, because when Christ comes, it will be like "the lightning"...when it flashes in the west, you still see it in the east. When Jesus returns, you won't need to be told...every single person will know it.

Jesus Christ is the Holy Spirit in fact, you need to be Born Again to understand that because when one is truly Born Again you are Saved in Him, he has come to you to dwell in you and one can never beat that regardless. be it the day of that the whole world knows Jesus coming or not.

Jesus in NOT the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit. The Father is the Father and Jesus is Jesus. But they are all one God. That is how Jesus can say "I and the Father are one.” -John 10:30

Or this:

"I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves." -John 17:9–13


When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. -John 16:13–15


Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. -John 16:7

The essence is clear. Christ remains with us through the Spirit. You cannot say that Christ is not with us, because he and the Spirit are one, just as Christ and the Father are one. But clearly the plan was for Christ to return to the Father, and for the Spirit to be sent, who will guide us in all wisdom and point us to glorifying Christ. It is the Holy Spirit that makes us reborn, regenerated...not of water, but of spirit, as Jesus said. It is the Spirit that walks with us daily in sanctification: “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father." -John 14:12

 

[Naomi25]

" I believe that the "different programs" they see for Jews and Gentiles has to do with time frames" Yes, I do believe this too, although I couldn't do the time line study as, I am def. no scholar!
"I think it's somewhat distressing when someone starts reading the news to try and determine God's word more than God's word to determine God's word. Is that like the biblical version of ambulance chasers??" Lol, true-for the most part IMO. I do understand that eschatology scholars/teachers have to keep up with current events if that is their "specialty" so to speak. But then the interpretation...

I think the timeline is (briefly) like this: because the Jews rejected Jesus, God set the Jews aside for a time. In that time he turned his attention to us, the Gentiles, saving the majority of his elect from us. Like in the OT, where a few Gentiles were welcomed into the elect (Rahab, Ruth etc), in this "Gentile period" some Jews are also bought to Christ and become the elect. But they believe a time will come (most believe it to be soon) when God will remove the Gentile Church from the earth (the Rapture) so that he can then turn his attention back to Israel fully, to bring them to their senses in regards to Jesus.

As far as the "News chasers" go...I don't really have a huge problem with them watching the news in light of scripture. In a way, it's something we should all do, especially as we see politics change around the globe in it's attitude towards God. That is something we need to be aware of. China has taken some worrying steps that should have every believer praying. And the ongoing persecution of our brothers and sisters in the middle eastern countries should always be on our minds.
But even the less 'sensational' new watchers, seem so intent on picking out everything, that sometimes I think they are missing the point entirely. They point to 'wars and rumors of wars' and 'earthquakes and famines and disease' and say "ah ha! Another sign it's almost upon us!" The problem here is that Jesus said that these signs are actually NOT signs of appending apocalypse. They would be commonplace and we should not become alarmed. So, I find the habit of pointing to every tiny bit of calamity and whipping up expectation to be troubling. Does it serve a greater purpose? Or will it only end in tiring the faithful out, who will then stop looking, stop longing?
I don't know.

 

[Nancy]

I think the timeline is (briefly) like this: because the Jews rejected Jesus, God set the Jews aside for a time. In that time he turned his attention to us, the Gentiles, saving the majority of his elect from us. Like in the OT, where a few Gentiles were welcomed into the elect (Rahab, Ruth etc), in this "Gentile period" some Jews are also bought to Christ and become the elect. But they believe a time will come (most believe it to be soon) when God will remove the Gentile Church from the earth (the Rapture) so that he can then turn his attention back to Israel fully, to bring them to their senses in regards to Jesus.

As far as the "News chasers" go...I don't really have a huge problem with them watching the news in light of scripture. In a way, it's something we should all do, especially as we see politics change around the globe in it's attitude towards God. That is something we need to be aware of. China has taken some worrying steps that should have every believer praying. And the ongoing persecution of our brothers and sisters in the middle eastern countries should always be on our minds.
But even the less 'sensational' new watchers, seem so intent on picking out everything, that sometimes I think they are missing the point entirely. They point to 'wars and rumors of wars' and 'earthquakes and famines and disease' and say "ah ha! Another sign it's almost upon us!" The problem here is that Jesus said that these signs are actually NOT signs of appending apocalypse. They would be commonplace and we should not become alarmed. So, I find the habit of pointing to every tiny bit of calamity and whipping up expectation to be troubling. Does it serve a greater purpose? Or will it only end in tiring the faithful out, who will then stop looking, stop longing?
I don't know.

Well put, and in so few words. These are the things that I have come to believe. I try to keep my eye on Israel and the rest of the middle East. And, prayer for our Christian families should always be ongoing, for sure.

 

[Enoch111]

The Bible warns about his physical return in the flesh in fact. you will not see him walking about or say there he goes.

More absurdity. The second coming of Christ is one of the key doctrines of the Bible.

2 THESSALONIANS 1
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14,15)

 

[Jay Ross]

I think the timeline is (briefly) like this: because the Jews rejected Jesus, God set the Jews aside for a time. In that time he turned his attention to us, the Gentiles, saving the majority of his elect from us. Like in the OT, where a few Gentiles were welcomed into the elect (Rahab, Ruth etc), in this "Gentile period" some Jews are also bought to Christ and become the elect. But they believe a time will come (most believe it to be soon) when God will remove the Gentile Church from the earth (the Rapture) so that he can then turn his attention back to Israel fully, to bring them to their senses in regards to Jesus.

As far as the "News chasers" go...I don't really have a huge problem with them watching the news in light of scripture. In a way, it's something we should all do, especially as we see politics change around the globe in it's attitude towards God. That is something we need to be aware of. China has taken some worrying steps that should have every believer praying. And the ongoing persecution of our brothers and sisters in the middle eastern countries should always be on our minds.

But even the less 'sensational' new watchers, seem so intent on picking out everything, that sometimes I think they are missing the point entirely. They point to 'wars and rumors of wars' and 'earthquakes and famines and disease' and say "ah ha! Another sign it's almost upon us!" The problem here is that Jesus said that these signs are actually NOT signs of appending apocalypse. They would be commonplace and we should not become alarmed. So, I find the habit of pointing to every tiny bit of calamity and whipping up expectation to be troubling. Does it serve a greater purpose? Or will it only end in tiring the faithful out, who will then stop looking, stop longing?

I don't know.

Well put, and in so few words. These are the things that I have come to believe. I try to keep my eye on Israel and the rest of the middle East. And, prayer for our Christian families should always be ongoing, for sure.

For Naomi25 she has expressed her views, but God has not rejected the nation of Israel because they caused Christ to be crucified, God rejected Israel because of their idolatrous worship practices, which are still prevalent even today.

Naomi25's claim that God has turned His attention towards the Gentile Church by saving the majority of his elect from among the gentiles and that some time in our near future that he will rapture His Gentile Church from the earth so that he can then turn His attention back to Israel to bring them back to their senses w.r.t. Jesus.

The above claim, re the Gentile Church, is based on the current bad translation of Romans 11:25-26.

When we know the context and message contained within the scriptures our understanding allows us to be content within our circumstances and to be not concerned with what is happening around us in the Gentile world who are responding out of their ignorance.

What saddens my heart is the number of so called “Christians” who purport to Know God’s words and prophecies and who listen to those who tickle their ears into false beliefs. The number of false teachers and prophets are growing and many run after them to be hung on their every word.

Please do not also fall into this trap.

 

[Vexatious]

So you say. But unless you can provide direct, corresponding evidence that these groups of people have pushed directly for these events, it's just hearsay.

Do you think Trump was right for ending the Iran deal? Maybe not every dispy wanted the war with Iraq (based on WMD lies), but they keep company with people who do, and they hold Antihristian doctrines that motivate dispies to spread lies and murder.

I know who would have welcomed with love into their homes the very people you say they'd planned to have murdered.

Dispies drive a thousand Muslims away from Christ for every Muslim refugee they might invite into their homes.

You lump them all under this label without knowing them and, apparently, from your comments below, without even knowing what they actually believe. That is wrong.

I know very well what dispies believe. First and foremost, they believe those "of their father the Devil" are God's chosen people.

They absolutely believe salvation comes through Christ, and Christ alone. They acknowledge that the Jews (and yes, they claim the Jews are Gods chosen people still, but that's not my point here) will not be saved except through Christ alone.

Dispeis teach that grace began with the resurrection. Therefore, it's implied that Jews saved before Christ (and outside of Christ) are saved in a means other than grace, such as by virtue of being a "Jew". Showing their true beliefs, even if they don't admit to them, they like to chant "All Israel will be saved", not seeming to mean just one lone future generation. And, they don't evangelize Jews in Israel, because they believe it's frivolous.