Naomi25
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- Aug 10, 2016
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Again, I am unsure if you are saying that you think I am saying that this WOULD be God's wrath, and you disagree with that. Or, you are agreeing with me that "No", this would not be considered "God's wrath".
Well, I too must disagree with you. In the following verses, we see three things repeatedly. We see the specific difference between salvation versus wrath (in other words, it's a heaven/hell sort of thing). We see that it is a specific sort of wrath, in terms of Christ's return; 'day', or 'waiting for his son from heaven' in terms of this wrath, rather than a period of time and punishment poured out upon the residents of earth, and then we see that this wrath is poured out, or caused to be drunk in a 'day' or a specific time of judgement that is not easily read as outside of death and judgement.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. -Romans 1:18
But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. -Romans 2:5
He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. -Romans 2:6–8
Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. -Romans 5:9
and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. -1 Thessalonians 1:10
For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, -1 Thessalonians 5:9
calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” -Revelation 6:16–17
The nations raged,
but your wrath came,
and the time for the dead to be judged,
and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints,
and those who fear your name,
both small and great,
and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.” -Revelation 11:18
So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. -Revelation 14:19
"Signs" are different, however, than "wrath", are they not? And these "signs" that you have listed, signs that we also see in Matt 24 and in the first 6 seal judgements too, have been happening all throughout the interadvental period.
It rather baffles me when people attempt to point to these signs in scripture and go "see! we are in the last days!" I'm sure Pompeii, or the famine written about in Acts, or the earthquake in Shensi, China in 1556, or the Black Death, or the Christian martyrs fed to the lions....I'm sure all the people living through these things would have shook their heads at these people in disbelief! We've had these things since Christ! He said we would!
You are still misunderstanding what I am saying, and perhaps that is my fault for not expressing it clearly. No. I do NOT believe that Christians are subject to God's wrath. At all.
The point I was trying to make was that a lot of the 'signs', as you seem to call them, that we see, I do not see the bible calling "the wrath of God". I see the bible calling those things "birth pangs of a sinful world". I see the bible telling us that God, in his Sovereignty allows such things to happen. I see the bible telling us that as Christians we are subject to these things as much as the unsaved, but in no way is this being under 'God's wrath'.
God, in his Sovereignty, still allows human responsibility and action to hold sway on the earth, and for some (us) it leads to growth and a closer relationship with him, and for others (the unsaved) it can lead to what we might call punishment. Consider: the situation in Syria is horrific, no question. For most I would say. It came about by human, sinful actions and decision, but ultimately allowed by God. For the non-believer I would say most probably look on the past years with nothing but trauma and heartache. But the stories coming out of the Churches? Those Christians are left with nothing, materially. But to hear their testimony and have them talk of their faith and relationship with God? There can be no doubt that even in the hardship and horror they praise him, being forced by those circumstances to draw closer to him as they had nothing else.
This has been the picture again and again in these "birth-pang" years. This is why we can say that the Church triumphs even as she suffers. This is why hardship is NEVER wrath, and indeed true wrath is life cut off from God.
I hope I've explained that a little better.
Ah, no. I take the meaning of wrath from the verses I provided earlier. I as I just explained, I don't believe Christians are ever subject to God's wrath. Christ did that in our place.
Tribulation...hardship...is not the same as God's specific wrath for a specific reason. The 'tribulation', when it is spoken of, is spoken of in terms of those 'signs' we've talked of...natural disasters, of human persecution and the suffering we cause one another. Of disease, famine, war. Tribulation is the opposite of God's shalom, I would say, the effects of sin fully realised. And that's not really God's wrath upon a disobedient people...done at judgement and Christ's return, when they stand before the throne and sent into eternal punishment and wrath....that's just the horrors of this life turned up to 10...what we, and Satan, have wrought upon the world.
