Why don’t you believe Satan has been defeated?
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Hmm…okay…so, then it would read: and it was given to him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them, and power was given him over all kindreds (families) and languages and tribes.
We could add a fifth view “what the heck is all this” unless you know a better title Stunned. Lol gonna try to sleep. Gotta get up about 4:30 and cook breakfast for these people here at the house. I’ll be glad to go back to my own home and turn the ac on, hope they will fix this by tomorrow… Lord God willingly these guys shouldn’t have to burn up like this. (I work at a place for those who intellectual disabilities). Everyone else is a sleep. Get you some rest too.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
I am offering you a far more scripturally sound alternative to the preterist position. But because it offends your sensibilities that alternative is now an insult? You are proving me right though...I said you are clinging tenaciously to your ideas regardless of further information, and you say...
There are at least 10 or 11 specific criteria that pertain specifically to the Antichrist/little horn power. One of them is that this power could not rise to prominence until after the fall of Rome and the rise of the 10 kings as represented by the ten horns of the 4th beast of Daniel 7. Nero could not possibly fulfill that role, any more than the claims of others that Antiochus did.
yet you claim,
I hope that is true and you have not closed yourself off to further revelation. In Daniel and Revelation there is actually more information given regarding specific characteristics of the historical Antichrist than there is to the real Christ regarding His time on earth.
There are at least 10 or 11 specific criteria that pertain specifically to the Antichrist/little horn power. One of them is that this power could not rise to prominence until after the fall of Rome and the rise of the 10 kings as represented by the ten horns of the 4th beast of Daniel 7. Nero could not possibly fulfill that role, any more than the claims of others that Antiochus did.
Thank you brakelite. I’ll consider but the thing is, you insulted me by sharing a scripture that you asked about and called it weak… Nero was a bad bad bad man, he did so much damage and he died by the sword, by killings himself.
I do appreciate the encouragement but I’ll probably always rely on Nero being the one who was used and I believe Vespian who ruled on 6 months and it all kind of congregated together with the revelation scripture.
I would also offer again to anyone ,
Cassio Dio, Tacticus, Suetonius, and Josephus to consider as well.
You know…when you earlier said that the teaching Jesus was coming again just put fear in people, I remembered years ago when I saw the discrepancy between looking for and hoping for His coming again and this verse: 18 What sorrow awaits you who say,
“If only the day of the Lord were here!”
You have no idea what you are wishing for.
That day will bring darkness, not light.
So I had great confusion over it. He showed me that our gathering together in the air and the terrible day of the Lord were two different things and gave me all the verses to put it together as to how I longed for His coming again to gather us in the air, not for the terrible day of the Lord. So it didn’t bring fear to me because He says: 10 “Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect (keep) you from the great time of testing (the terrible day of the Lord) that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world. 11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take away your crown.
So His coming soon has not been fearful to me, like a threat, but a good and amazing promise.
“If only the day of the Lord were here!”
You have no idea what you are wishing for.
That day will bring darkness, not light.
So I had great confusion over it. He showed me that our gathering together in the air and the terrible day of the Lord were two different things and gave me all the verses to put it together as to how I longed for His coming again to gather us in the air, not for the terrible day of the Lord. So it didn’t bring fear to me because He says: 10 “Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect (keep) you from the great time of testing (the terrible day of the Lord) that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world. 11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take away your crown.
So His coming soon has not been fearful to me, like a threat, but a good and amazing promise.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
So you are really just guessing and you don't really know. As I said, 10 or more criteria. Nero doesn't fit. No individual can fit all the criteria, which is why your answer was weak. Yes, Nero was a bad man. But that isn't actually one of the criteria. Did you know the word Antichrist means instead of Christ... In place of Christ? Sitting in the temple, the church, claiming to be God? The criteria for the Antichrist are historical and can be literally attributed to only one entity. Only one. And that one cannot even be an imaginary person in the future... That also is impossible. I don't mean to be insulting, but there are nuances and truths you haven't considered. And one scripture that just happens to mention man is weak. The only way for scripture to be accurately met in relation to the Antichrist is a succession of men all contributing to the same agenda and using the same methods to accomplish it. And covering over 1500 years to do so.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Amen. Going through it all though and being a living witness to those events won't be easy, but God has promised that our water and bread will be sure. And His protection certain.
LearningToLetGo
Well-Known Member
I prefer "fever dream" or perhaps plain "trippin' on something he smoked." ;-P
Nevertheless, there is just too much evil in the world to think Satan is not still mucking up the works. His power may be diminished from the days of Zeus and Apollo, but he still has a lot of sway over what happens.
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Ah, but I see it differently. Which brings me to what my next confusion was. It was this - if He comes to gather us in the air, keeping us from that time of testing (terrible day of the Lord) coming upon all who belong to this world, how the heck are there martyred saints who come out of that great tribulation in Revelation??
And He answered that for me too. :)
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He only has sway over us to the extent that he can manipulate our flesh. But we aren’t left stuck there in our carnalness forever because we pick up our cross and follow and then this: In his kindness God called you to share in his eternal glory by means of Christ Jesus. So after you have suffered a little while, he will restore, support, and strengthen you, and he will place you on a firm foundation.
We have three enemies - the world, the flesh and the devil. (Four, if you count death, the last enemy to be done away with.) The above verse about restoring, supporting and strengthening you after you have suffered and struggled a little while with sin, has to do with putting the enemy of the flesh under your feet. He will do that here if you believe and trust that He will.
3 Dear brothers and sisters, when I was with you I couldn’t talk to you as I would to spiritual people. I had to talk as though you belonged to this world or as though you were infants in Christ. 2 I had to feed you with milk, not with solid food, because you weren’t ready for anything stronger. And you still aren’t ready, 3 for you are still controlled by your sinful nature.
He wasn’t saying they didn’t belong to Jesus or hadn’t received the down payment of the Spirit of God. He was saying that until their flesh was put under them and they were strengthened and established they weren’t able to eat solid food. So think of that whenever your flesh bristles at someone being rude or mean to you and sigh and eat your baby food while waiting for the promised child, lol!
He wasn’t saying they didn’t belong to Jesus or hadn’t received the down payment of the Spirit of God. He was saying that until their flesh was put under them and they were strengthened and established they weren’t able to eat solid food. So think of that whenever your flesh bristles at someone being rude or mean to you and sigh and eat your baby food while waiting for the promised child, lol!
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Satan was defeated in the same capacity that we have been saved. GOD'S chosen have been saved, it is a done deal. But the full consummation of our salvation (our redemption with our new eternal spiritual bodies) has not happened yet.
So in that sense, Satan has been defeated seeing that his goal was to thwart God's plan and destroy us.
But nevertheless, Satan has been been given souls and continues to take them. He continues to tempt, deceive and lure souls away from Christ. Sin and evil is rampant in the world.
Actually, I believe we are in the Great Tribulation with Antichrist in charge, though he has not been revealed. Satan controls THE Antichrist and all antichrists who attack us and will attack Israel as well.
Christ's Millennial Kingdom will be realized, with true peace on earth after the GT is over. Believers ONLY will be on earth and Satan and his horde will be locked up, with sin and evil drastically reduced to near non-existance until towards the end of the Millennium. Christ will physically rule in Jerusalem!!!
Since babies will be born at this time, they will have to learn and grow spiritually. At times they will be rebellious, but Satan will not be around to tempt them. They will be brought up in almost Paradise. The animal kingdom will have been reprogrammed instantly as if they knew no other way but to be at harmony and at peace - with no predarors and no prey. This also means illnesses causes by deadly viruses and bacteria will be reset, almost null and void. Sin is what corrupted nature and distorted everything down to the celluar level. All that will be reprogrammed, healed if you will.
And so once again, people will live to be 1000 years old. However, there will still be death and sin, but they will be drastically reduced. After the Millennial Kingdom is when death, Hades, sin, evil and Satan will be finally eliminated.
Remember, God is not finished with Israel yet. Covenants were made and will be fulfilled.
I can back up all of what I said with scripture.
Satan is defeated, Christ took care of that on the Cross, and Satan knows it.
Col. 2:15
"And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it."
When Satan deceived Adam and Eve in the Garden, man not only fell from God's Grace, he became the slave of Satan. Satan then and now legally owns mans soul until he is born again.
Man had no hope being enslaved by his sin and thereby Satan. Christ on the Cross became, as Paul puts it, the "Second Adam."
Christ living a perfect life as a man became the perfect sacrifice to redeem man from the ownership of Satan, and reconciled man back to God. Christ had to undo what Adam had done in order to reconcile man. But as the scripture says, "we must be born-again!
All who have not accepted Christ as their Saviour are still enslaved by Satan, and it's legal by the Laws of God even though Satan lied to man to gain his soul.
This is why Peter said that Satan "is as a roaring lion walking to and fro the earth, seeking whom he many devour." He has lost the war with God and on a rampage to drag as many as possible into hell. And he's doing a fantastic job at it!
This is the reason we must get the Gospel out there, make it easy to understand, and show what Satan is doing. But most of all we must present the deliverance God has provided through His Son to escape the god of this world, Satan himself.
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The Beast out of the Sea
1 The Authorized Version presents this line here but the Critical Text versions add this line at the end of Chapter 12.
2. This beast is a very different being than the seven headed dragon described in chapter 12. That creature represents Satan or the Devil; this beast represents a creation that works by the power of the Devil.
3. We remember that in scripture the sea often represents the Gentile nations or a Gentile nation. In this case we will discover that this beast is rising out of the Roman Empire. This beast is sometimes spoken of as an individual [specific sense]. It's not surprising then that the beast is interchangeably and individual and a kingdom, if ancient Roman is in view.
4. In order to understand what the seven heads of the beast represent, we are required to go to chapter 17:9-10 where John writes: "And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitters. 10 and there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space". The seven kings correspond to the first seven Emperors, of Rome, namely Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero, and Galba. [See Daniel 7:2;7; Revelation 17:3,9,12]
Revelation 13:2
5. Interestingly, the beast is described in such a way that it incorporates the traits of all four beasts that Daniel saw in a vision in Daniel 7:1-8. Generally speaking, most Bible Scholars seem to be in partial, if not full agreement, that the beasts in Daniel's vision represented the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Gree, and Roman empires. Here, Romans appears to have been brought into the picture as a chief agent of the judgement that came upon Jerusalem in 70AD. It [Rome] was the "persecuting power that was the hand of the Old Serpent cast to earth to persecute the Saints of God. [See Daniel 7:4-6; Revelation 12:4,9; 16:10]
6. When one of the seven Kings was mortally wounded unto death, [Nero], it was believed that the Roman Empire had come to an end.
7. The Roman Empire.
8. Meaning - "when the Roman Empire revived' [even through the renewed spirit of Nero himself]. [see commentary on Revelation 13:3 - The Death and Revival of Nero in the Roman Empire]
9. The KJV errantly reads, "the whole world"
10 - They were amazed at the Revival of the Roman Empire [ see Revelation 13:12, 14; 17:8]
11 - Satan
12 - They worshiped Rome. We have an instance of this in scripture when at the trails of Yeshua, the Jews cried, "we have no king but Caesar". [ John 19:15]
13 - Here we see not only the Jews adoration of Rome's incomparable power and stamina [ when the worshipers said things like, "Who is like the beast?] but we also get an idea of their feeling powerless to oppose Rome in anyway when they cry, "and who can fight against it?"
1 The Authorized Version presents this line here but the Critical Text versions add this line at the end of Chapter 12.
2. This beast is a very different being than the seven headed dragon described in chapter 12. That creature represents Satan or the Devil; this beast represents a creation that works by the power of the Devil.
3. We remember that in scripture the sea often represents the Gentile nations or a Gentile nation. In this case we will discover that this beast is rising out of the Roman Empire. This beast is sometimes spoken of as an individual [specific sense]. It's not surprising then that the beast is interchangeably and individual and a kingdom, if ancient Roman is in view.
4. In order to understand what the seven heads of the beast represent, we are required to go to chapter 17:9-10 where John writes: "And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitters. 10 and there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space". The seven kings correspond to the first seven Emperors, of Rome, namely Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero, and Galba. [See Daniel 7:2;7; Revelation 17:3,9,12]
Revelation 13:2
5. Interestingly, the beast is described in such a way that it incorporates the traits of all four beasts that Daniel saw in a vision in Daniel 7:1-8. Generally speaking, most Bible Scholars seem to be in partial, if not full agreement, that the beasts in Daniel's vision represented the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Gree, and Roman empires. Here, Romans appears to have been brought into the picture as a chief agent of the judgement that came upon Jerusalem in 70AD. It [Rome] was the "persecuting power that was the hand of the Old Serpent cast to earth to persecute the Saints of God. [See Daniel 7:4-6; Revelation 12:4,9; 16:10]
6. When one of the seven Kings was mortally wounded unto death, [Nero], it was believed that the Roman Empire had come to an end.
7. The Roman Empire.
8. Meaning - "when the Roman Empire revived' [even through the renewed spirit of Nero himself]. [see commentary on Revelation 13:3 - The Death and Revival of Nero in the Roman Empire]
9. The KJV errantly reads, "the whole world"
10 - They were amazed at the Revival of the Roman Empire [ see Revelation 13:12, 14; 17:8]
11 - Satan
12 - They worshiped Rome. We have an instance of this in scripture when at the trails of Yeshua, the Jews cried, "we have no king but Caesar". [ John 19:15]
13 - Here we see not only the Jews adoration of Rome's incomparable power and stamina [ when the worshipers said things like, "Who is like the beast?] but we also get an idea of their feeling powerless to oppose Rome in anyway when they cry, "and who can fight against it?"
Which verse?
I often look verses up in quite a few different translations to help me.
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@stunnedbygrace - 13:3 -
the notes beside each indication is the follow up by the next written part.
Revelation 13:
Previous:
#98
14 - Remarkable detail about Nero's campaign of persecution is that it lasted just over 42 months, which verses 5 - 8 record as the length of time that would be given to the beast to "war against and conquer the saints." The persecution ended when Nero died on June 9th, 68AD. In this context, Revelation 13:10 must have been a comfort to the saints as they were first told that the beast would only be allowed to persecute them for 3.5 years but the Revelation also [at verse 10] told them how their persecutor would be removed, saying "... he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and faith of the saints." [Verse 10] Nero ended his life by thrusting his sword through his own throat, with the help of his personal secretary, Epaphroditus, when he realized his popularity wanted and that a coup was in the making. Again fulfilling the words of this prophecy. [See Nero] [See Daniel 7:8,11,25;11:36; Revelation 11:2;12:6]
15 - His tabernacle could speak to the temple or the Lord Yeshua [see Yeshua: tabernacle of YHWH] [see John 1:14]
16 - Numerous church leaders during the first several centuries identified Nero as the beast of the book of Revelation or at least speculated that it was him. When they labeled him the beast this was synonymous with the anti-Christ as the two are often blended in interpretation. These included Clement of Alexandria [150-215 AD], Tertullian [160-220 AD], Augustine [354-430 AD] and Jerome [347-420 AD], who stated the following in his commentary on Daniel 11:27-30: "As for the Antichrist, there is no question but what he is going to fight against the holy covenant, and that when he first makes war against the king of Egypt, he shall straightway be frightened off by the assistance of the Romans. But these events were typically prefigured under Antiochus Epiphanes, so that this abominable king who persecuted God's people foreshadows the ANtichrist, who is to persecute the people of Christ. And so there are many of our viewpoint who think that Domitous Nero was the Anti Christ because of his outstanding savagery and depravity." The difficulty about this is the beast is certainly the Roman Empire [generally] and Nero [specifically].
17 - [see suffering, Christian] - [ see Acts 14:22; 26:18; Galatians 4:7; Philippians 1:29; 2 Timothy 2:11-12]
18 - [see Daniel 7:21; Revelation 11:7,18, 12:17; 17:15]
19 - From a fulfillment vantage point this verse refers "to all national Israel and here tribes" [see Exodus 32:32; Daniel 12:1]
20 - [See Matthew 11:15; 13:43; Luke 8:8; 14:35; Revelation 2:7]
21 - This appears to be a clear prophecy regarding how the Beast [in the singular sense] would be slain. If this is its meaning it would be taken as a comforting fact, helping the believers in Nero's day to endure through intense persecution [in light of this prophecy] while waiting for the end to come within thread and a half years. Nero martyred thousands [including Paul] by the sword, and Tertuliians [in his book, "Before Jerusalem's Fall] credits 'Nero's cruel sword' as providing the martyr's blood as "seed for the church". It's a historical fact that Nero also met his own suicidal Demis at the hand of a sword when he certainly could have taken poison. Therefore, he did indeed live and die by the sword. It was this even in June 68AD which brought an end to this most intense period of persecution against the Church/Bride. Again we know also that Nero fit the description of this beast [in the specific sense] with his forth-two month reign of persecution from November 64 - June 68 D [See verses 5-7], then with his death by the sword [ even as he had used the sword to cause death ] [see verse 10], and with his demand for worship fit the description of this Beast [in a general sense], with its identification as the fourth beast in Daniels similar vision [Daniel 7:1-8], and with the healing of the mortal wound suffered by one of its heads [Revelation 17:7-10] - See [Nero] - [ See Genesis 9:6; Isaiah 33:1, Matthew 26:52; Revelation 14:12.
the notes beside each indication is the follow up by the next written part.
Revelation 13:
Previous:
#98
14 - Remarkable detail about Nero's campaign of persecution is that it lasted just over 42 months, which verses 5 - 8 record as the length of time that would be given to the beast to "war against and conquer the saints." The persecution ended when Nero died on June 9th, 68AD. In this context, Revelation 13:10 must have been a comfort to the saints as they were first told that the beast would only be allowed to persecute them for 3.5 years but the Revelation also [at verse 10] told them how their persecutor would be removed, saying "... he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and faith of the saints." [Verse 10] Nero ended his life by thrusting his sword through his own throat, with the help of his personal secretary, Epaphroditus, when he realized his popularity wanted and that a coup was in the making. Again fulfilling the words of this prophecy. [See Nero] [See Daniel 7:8,11,25;11:36; Revelation 11:2;12:6]
15 - His tabernacle could speak to the temple or the Lord Yeshua [see Yeshua: tabernacle of YHWH] [see John 1:14]
16 - Numerous church leaders during the first several centuries identified Nero as the beast of the book of Revelation or at least speculated that it was him. When they labeled him the beast this was synonymous with the anti-Christ as the two are often blended in interpretation. These included Clement of Alexandria [150-215 AD], Tertullian [160-220 AD], Augustine [354-430 AD] and Jerome [347-420 AD], who stated the following in his commentary on Daniel 11:27-30: "As for the Antichrist, there is no question but what he is going to fight against the holy covenant, and that when he first makes war against the king of Egypt, he shall straightway be frightened off by the assistance of the Romans. But these events were typically prefigured under Antiochus Epiphanes, so that this abominable king who persecuted God's people foreshadows the ANtichrist, who is to persecute the people of Christ. And so there are many of our viewpoint who think that Domitous Nero was the Anti Christ because of his outstanding savagery and depravity." The difficulty about this is the beast is certainly the Roman Empire [generally] and Nero [specifically].
17 - [see suffering, Christian] - [ see Acts 14:22; 26:18; Galatians 4:7; Philippians 1:29; 2 Timothy 2:11-12]
18 - [see Daniel 7:21; Revelation 11:7,18, 12:17; 17:15]
19 - From a fulfillment vantage point this verse refers "to all national Israel and here tribes" [see Exodus 32:32; Daniel 12:1]
20 - [See Matthew 11:15; 13:43; Luke 8:8; 14:35; Revelation 2:7]
21 - This appears to be a clear prophecy regarding how the Beast [in the singular sense] would be slain. If this is its meaning it would be taken as a comforting fact, helping the believers in Nero's day to endure through intense persecution [in light of this prophecy] while waiting for the end to come within thread and a half years. Nero martyred thousands [including Paul] by the sword, and Tertuliians [in his book, "Before Jerusalem's Fall] credits 'Nero's cruel sword' as providing the martyr's blood as "seed for the church". It's a historical fact that Nero also met his own suicidal Demis at the hand of a sword when he certainly could have taken poison. Therefore, he did indeed live and die by the sword. It was this even in June 68AD which brought an end to this most intense period of persecution against the Church/Bride. Again we know also that Nero fit the description of this beast [in the specific sense] with his forth-two month reign of persecution from November 64 - June 68 D [See verses 5-7], then with his death by the sword [ even as he had used the sword to cause death ] [see verse 10], and with his demand for worship fit the description of this Beast [in a general sense], with its identification as the fourth beast in Daniels similar vision [Daniel 7:1-8], and with the healing of the mortal wound suffered by one of its heads [Revelation 17:7-10] - See [Nero] - [ See Genesis 9:6; Isaiah 33:1, Matthew 26:52; Revelation 14:12.
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