Why I believe in the rapture.

[David H.]

If you are claiming to be of the 12 tribes, then the covenant and the promises made with your forefathers still applies today for YOU. This is why I don't call it the "old testament". Its not "old", because lot of the prophecy still hasn't been fulfilled, and the promises made within it was put upon Jacob and his seed FOREVER, including the new covenant. It is non-negotiable. This is why Malachi calls it the "book of remembrance", not the "old testament".

I Stand in agreement with the Apostle Paul who said:

Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, (Philippians 3:5-8)

All that Matters now is that we abide in the vine which Is Christ Jesus the LORD (John 15).

 

[David H.]

'll be blunt, there is no "rapture" as its been explained by these lying churches. The prophecy Jesus gave is about Israel coming OUT of its "great tribulation" (Rev 7) in a second exodus, a tribulation that started a long time ago, many would say officially began in 70 AD. And he was quoting from the book of remembrance. Virtually nothing he or his apostles stated was "new" besides the resurrection. Now you are claiming this imagined "rapture" is for all, well, so much for those "saints" still getting hulk smashed by the beast in Rev 13.

Continue reading Philippians 3...

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. (Philippians 3:9-11)

 

[Dcopymope]

Not all in the Body are called to be saints, They are selected by God to face this and rewarded accordingly at the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:18) Along with the others raptured. The last of the saints to be killed are the two witnesses, and then the rapture occurs and the wrath of God is Poured out.

Ok...the last trumpet has nothing to do with the "saints" or "faithful" being "raptured". According to Paul and Jesus, the last trumpet is about the day of the lord and a "deliverance". But in Revelation, the order of events are different, VERY different. The Day of the Lord happens LONG before any trumpets are blown at the sixth seal, and the last trumpet is about ushering in the "third woe" which is the 1260 day beating the world receives at the hands of the "beast", including the "saints". So again, if you think you're going somewhere, because you have "Jesus", sorry, you aren't.

(Revelation 11:14-15) "The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. {15} And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

The last woe:

(Revelation 12:5-6) "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. {6} And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days."

(Revelation 12:11-13) "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. {12} Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. {13} And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child."

(Revelation 13:5) "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."

 

[GRACE ambassador]

there is no "rapture" as its been explained by these lying churches.

Precious friend(s), agree Many are lying, But, Definite Distinctions are not being made, resulting in mass Confusion!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

LORD JESUS, we beseech Thee Now For Thy Divine Understanding In This Thy Most
Important Doctrine For our Comfort And Consolation. Amen. (1_Thessalonians_4:18 KJB!)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Time Of JACOB’s {Israel's} Trouble (TOJT), Ending With The Second Coming, is found in:

God's Prophetic Program, Under LAW, gospel of the kingdom (“ages” past/future)
(Genesis-John; Hebrews-Revelation)

God’s “Earthly Kingdom” Purpose From “the foundation of the world” (Matthew_25:34)

God's Purpose Prophesied “since the world began” (Luke_1:68-70; Acts_3:21!)

Rightly Divided ( 2 Timothy 2:15 KJB!) From Things That DIFFER:

Great GRACE Departure!

Pre-TOJT Resurrection/Departure of The Body Of CHRIST,
Ending God’s Age Of GRACE, Is Found In:

God's Revelation Of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God
{ Current = “But NOW!” } (Romans through Philemon!)

God’s “Heavenly Hidden” Purpose Before “the foundation of the world”
(Ephesians_1:4; 2_Timothy_1:9!)

God's Heavenly Purpose Kept Secret “since the world began”
(Romans_16:25; Ephesians_1:4-11, 3:5-9!)

-------------------
The Second Coming, According to Prophecy:

(1) Immediately After tribulation/4 signs, CHRIST, In His
Prophesied Second Advent, As KING Of kings, And LORD Of lords,
Is Coming From Heaven! (Matthew_24:29; Revelation_19:16, 11 KJB!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming On a white horse, With Crowns On
His Head, And A Sword In His Mouth! (Revelation_19:12-15)

(3) CHRIST Is Coming With, (which Were In Heaven!),
His armies on white horses! (Revelation_19:12-15)

(4) CHRIST Is Coming To earth “With All Of His holy angels,”
In Order To Judge/Make war/Smite And Rule the nations…
(Matthew_25:31; Revelation_19:11, 15)

(5a) Angels “gather the tares First, And they are taken Out of the kingdom”
to be cast into the furnace of fire! (Matthew_24:30, 13:30, 40-43!)

(5b) Angels “gather the elect”... (Matthew_24:31; Mark_13:27!)

(6)...for the “judgment of the Earthly Nations” By The Son of man, The King!
(Matthew_25:31-46!)

(7) Those Judged as righteous then enter the kingdom! And the UNrighteous
then Depart into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels!
(Matthew_25:34-46!)

Rightly Divided ( 2 Timothy 2:15 KJB!) From Things That DIFFER:

The Great GRACE Departure, According to The Heavenly Mystery!:

(1) Immediately After GRACE Has ENDED/ZERO signs!:
CHRIST, As Head Of His Body, The Church, Will Descend From
Heaven! (Ephesians_1:19-23; Colossians_1:18; 1_Thessalonians_4:16-17!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming With A Shout, With the voice of an archangel,
And With The Trump of God! (1_Thessalonians_4:16!)

3) God (JESUS CHRIST) Will Bring With Him {those who Were With
Him In Heaven}, part Of His Own, those who are “asleep In JESUS!”
(2_Corinthians_5:8; Philippians_1:21-23; 1_Thessalonians_4:13 KJB!)

(4) CHRIST Descends With One archangel, Will resurrect those
asleep {in 3)} First, and Then, we “which are alive and remain,” {which
Is A Mystery!}, will be changed/all “incorruptible, And Caught Up”
together to meet The LORD in the air, in the “twinkling of an eye!”
(1_Thessalonians_4:16-17; 1_Corinthians_15:52-53!)

(5) CHRIST “Gathers His Body” To Himself, to Take them To Heaven...
(2_Thessalonians_2:1-3; 1_Corinthians_15:49; 2_Corinthians_12:2, 5:1, 2;
Ephesians_1:3, 20, 2:6; Philippians_3:20; 2_Timothy_4:18!)

6)...For The Judgment Seat Of CHRIST, For HIS Heavenly Body,
By The Head Himself!... (Romans_2:6, 16, 14:10-12;
1_Corinthians_3:8-15, 4:5, 6:20; 2_Corinthians_5:10;
Ephesians_6:8; Colossians_3:24-25!)

(7a) ...After Judgment, the GRACE assembly Is Then Presented as
A Glorious Church, To CHRIST Himself!... (Ephesians_5:27!)

(7b) ...And, Then CHRIST Will Present His Body, holy and
unblameable and unreproveable, In His Sight, To His Father,
In Heaven, Where we Live Forever And Ever! Amen!
(1_Thessalonians_3:13; Colossians_1:5, 22;
1_Corinthians_6:3; 2_Corinthians_5:1-2 KJB!)
---------------------------------------------------------------
LORD JESUS, thank You so much for Your Precious BLOOD,
Gift Of ETERNAL Salvation, And for Your Blessed Hope of
Glorification When You Come To Finally Gather us Home! Amen.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God's Simple Will!

 

[Dcopymope]

Continue reading Philippians 3...

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. (Philippians 3:9-11)

Yeah, well the "resurrection" doesn't happen until LONG after the seven seals, seven trumpets, and seven vials are done for in Revelation pal.....ALL the way in Revelation 20, AFTER his actual second coming with his army. Like I told the other dude, the events play out differently in Revelation. Revelation is in a league of its own. It cannot be pigeonholed into ANY book before it, including the so called "old testament". The best you can do is compare and contrast the other books with it, and it it fits, it fits. Reason being is because the end times were not fully revealed to us before Revelation. This is why the book is called Revelation, because it takes what was prophesied to occur in all previous books and gives us a complete picture of how it all actually goes down. It REVEALS the end times in full in a way the other books didn't.

 

[Dcopymope]

The Second Coming, According to Prophecy:

(1) Immediately After tribulation/4 signs,

CHRIST, In His
Prophesied Second Advent, As KING Of kings, And LORD Of lords,
Is Coming From Heaven! (Matthew_24:29; Revelation_19:16, 11 KJB!)

Yes, immediately after the "great tribulation", Yahweh makes his presence known and Israel is delivered. I'll make a thread clearing the air on what actually happens, WHEN it happens, and WHO it pertains to. But for now, here is the so called "rapture" and "great tribulation" in Revelation Jesus spoke about in his Olivet speech. Like I said, the "last trumpet" in Revelation has nothing to do with his second coming at all, literally.

(Revelation 6:12-17) "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; {13} And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. {14} And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. {15} And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; {16} And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: {17} For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

THIS is the Day of the Lord in Revelation. And to those trying to make distinctions between Gods "wrath" and "tribulation", well, the sixth seal ushers in his wrath long before any trumpets are blown. So if you aren't with Israel in the events immediately after this great day of the Lord in the scripture below, you're gonna be screwed big time.

(Revelation 7:9-17) "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; {10} And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. {11} And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, {12} Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. {13} And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? {14} And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. {15} Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. {16} They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. {17} For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

This is that "great tribulation" Jesus was speaking about in his Olivet speech, that Israel is delivered from. Its got nothing to do with the Gentiles going into tribulation. The whole speech was was going to happen to Israel, the Seed of Jacob, BEFORE their world wide deliverance. And, in case you don't know, here is this world wide deliverance of the House of Jacob, the so called "rapture" you all believe is all about you and "the church".

(Isaiah 11:10-16) "¶ And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. {11} And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. {12} And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

(Ezekiel 20:33-38) "¶ As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you: {34} And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out. {35} And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. {36} Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD. {37} And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant: {38} And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD."

 

[David H.]

Ok...the last trumpet has nothing to do with the "saints" or "faithful" being "raptured". According to Paul and Jesus, the last trumpet is about the day of the lord and a "deliverance". But in Revelation, the order of events are different, VERY different. The Day of the Lord happens LONG before any trumpets are blown at the sixth seal, and the last trumpet is about ushering in the "third woe" which is the 1260 day beating the world receives at the hands of the "beast", including the "saints". So again, if you think you're going somewhere, because you have "Jesus", sorry, you aren't.

I Do not read Revelation the way most prophecy scholars do, i see it as a series of over lapping visions, Seven to be exact, and the sequence of events is not indicated by the sequence of the visions but rather by triangulation with the rest of Scripture, and specifically the Olivet discourse. For me, the seventh trumpet and the seventh seal are at the same time preceded by the sixth seal which occurs shortly before both. I also see the Great tribulation as consisting of the trumpets and the persecution of the beast of revelation 13 being occurring before the rapture. The rapture occurs before the wrath of God on the Wicked of this world which has a specific beginning as stated in the Last trumpet (Revelation 11:18)
"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

Yeah, well the "resurrection" doesn't happen until LONG after the seven seals, seven trumpets, and seven vials are done for in Revelation pal.....ALL the way in Revelation 20, AFTER his actual second coming with his army. Like I told the other dude, the events play out differently in Revelation. Revelation is in a league of its own. It cannot be pigeonholed into ANY book before it, including the so called "old testament". The best you can do is compare and contrast the other books with it, and it it fits, it fits. Reason being is because the end times were not fully revealed to us before Revelation. This is why the book is called Revelation, because it takes what was prophesied to occur in all previous books and gives us a complete picture of how it all actually goes down. It REVEALS the end times in full in a way the other books didn't.

That resurrection in Revelation is the second resurrection which comes after the Millennial reign of Christ Jesus the LORD.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

You see, the first resurrection occurs before the thousand years, the second resurrection occurs after the thousand years.

 

[David H.]

Yes, immediately after the "great tribulation", Yahweh makes his presence known and Israel is delivered. I'll make a thread clearing the air on what actually happens, WHEN it happens, and WHO it pertains to. But for now, here is that "great tribulation" in Revelation Jesus spoke about in his Olivet speech. Like I said, the "last trumpet" in Revelation has nothing to do with his second coming at all, literally.

The Last trumpet has to do with the church being raptured.... That was the Mystery reveled to Paul.

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)

 

[amigo de christo]

Perhaps. However, I would caution the notion that just because God seems to have Paul teach that Jewish people will be bought back to him, or ‘grafted back onto the tree’ after the times of the Gentiles are complete, that that automatically means there is a “different program”, for lack of a better word, for the Jews.
The bible seems to clearly teach that there is ONE way to God…through Christ. Through being grafted onto this tree, to use Paul’s analogy. We see the national Jews were removed from that tree because of their unbelief in Christ, and Gentiles were grafted on when they accept him, along with remaining believing Jews. The promise that unbelieving Jews will be added back on IF they come to Christ, tells us that in truth, there is no separate program for them…they must become one with us all, as we are one in Christ.

I just found this response . Yes indeed naomi . Yes indeed . THERE is only ONE PLAN of Salvation .
JESUS CHRIST . If a jew or gentile rejects JESUS , Guess who they just rejected . GOD . As i hear i do .
The words you hear are not mine but HE who sent me . Yep . JESUS ALONE is the only name that saves and one must
believe in HIM to be saved . Now , LET ALL Raise those hands and just praise the glorious Lord .

 

[amigo de christo]

@Naomi25 The question is, When exactly will that grafting occur? not necessarily before the Rapture...

Ponder on this my friend . Was paul not himself born a jew . He says then we are still alive shall be caught up those who have already
sleep in Christ . So my advice is this , Whether you are a jew or a gentile , If the sky rips and you dont go up ,
WAILNG WILL SOON BE HEARD . Cause no man wants to go under the wrath of GOD .

 

[Dcopymope]

So after looking at all the "old testament" scriptures concerning the second exodus, how it occurs according to them, and WHO it mainly pertains to, it's time to put this issue to rest for good. I was going to make a separate thread, but might as well post it here. As I've said before, the problem with comparing revelation to the rest of the book, especially the old testament, is that Revelation is in a league of its own in how it describes end time events. You can’t just Pidgeon hole it into old testament prophecy, because it simply doesn’t fit. That more or less goes for the new testament itself for that matter. The best you can do is try to fit the previous books into revelation, and let the cards fall where they may, not the other way around.

The key scripture that often gets overlooked is the scripture that comes right after the 144,000 getting sealed that speaks of a “great multitude” coming out of great tribulation, standing in the midst of God and the Lamb.


The 144,000:

(Revelation 7:1-4) “And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. {2} And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, {3} Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. {4} And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

The Great Multitude:

(Revelation 7:9-15) “After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;........

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? {14} And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. {15} Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Now this is after the Day of the Lord event at the sixth seal and just before he even blows the first trumpet. There are many scriptures in the "old testament" telling us how this second exodus is supposed to occur. exodus occurs by sea vessel, airplane, horse, basically by every modern means of transportation by land, sea and air (words in parenthesis are mine).

What actually happens on the Day of the Lord:

(Isaiah 60:1-9) "Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. {2} For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. {3} And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. {4} Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. {5} Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee. {6} .......

{8} Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows? (aircraft) {9} Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee."

(Isaiah 66:20) "And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD."

Now a "swift beast" can easily be referring to any method of transportation that gets you from point A to B relatively quickly. It could be referring to trains, cars, or aircraft. This only bolsters my argument that the real exodus has to occur before the seven trumpets and not after as many assume it to be in Rev 12. Because this is one of the things that happens during the seven trumpets.

(Revelation 8:8-9) “And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; {9} And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.”

You can’t have a mass exodus by ship of what no doubt will be hundreds of millions of people if most of the ships end up getting demolished in his judgement. So it has to happen before the seven trumpets, or its not happening at all. Another reason why it has to happen before the seven trumpets goes right back to the 144,000. Some believe this to be allegory for the entire house of Jacob, but the scripture itself gives no justification for it when considering the “great multitude” that comes right after it.

Regardless of whether our departure occurs by natural means or by a supernatural occurrence in the sky, it has become quite clear to me that the 144,000 also gets sealed precisely because they are the ones that actually end up staying behind in the midst of the seven trumpets, while the rest of Israel are tucked safely out of the way entirely, "in the midst of God". This is made more evident in this scripture.

(Revelation 9:1-4) “And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. {2} And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. {3} And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. {4} And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.”

What needs to be understood is that when God blows those trumpets, he ain’t taking no prisoners. You’re gonna catch this beating if you don’t have the seal of God, and out of all 12 tribes, only 144,000 gets it. And, it appears that part of the reason of why God is doing this is to get the gentiles to repent.

(Revelation 9:20-21) “And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: {21} Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.”

(Ezekiel 11:17-21) “Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel. {18} And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence. {19} And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: {20} That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. {21} But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD.”

This is basically a repeat of the new covenant promised in Jer 31: 31-34. If you believe that at some point during or after Israel's exodus that the law will be written on their hearts, that he will replace their stony heart with the heart of flesh so that they will know the Lord and walk after his commandments, then it doesn’t make sense for the seven trumpets to apply to Israel to any degree if God is still trying to compel us to repent of our sins with a rather severe beating with the average gentile....Continued...

 

[Dcopymope]

Now on to the Olivet Discourse. When you compare and contrast both Luke’s and Matthews account of the Olivet Discourse speech, you will see that it is sort of a blow by blow description of Jerusalem’s fall which is the start of Jacobs trouble all the way up until the last days. This isn’t really made evidently clear just by reading Matthews account, so lets take a look.

(Matthew 24:3-4) “¶ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? {4} And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.”

First, lets address this scripture because this is where all the confusion starts. Without going into the Lexicon, this will leave you with the impression that the events described by Yahsua all takes place at the very end, because the word “world” is used. But according to the Lexicon, it should be saying “and of the end of the age”, not “end of the world”. Anybody who has read Revelation should know the end of the world does not come until WAY later What Christ is actually referring to is a specific period in time coming to an end. It is the time of the gentiles that is coming to an end, not the world.

The Beginning of Sorrows:

(Matthew 24:7-8) “{7} For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. {8} All these are the beginning of sorrows.”

(Luke 21:7-11) “¶ {7} And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass? {8} And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. {9} But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. {10} Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: {11} And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.”

So Yahshua basically defines the beginning of the last days as the “beginning of sorrows”….not for Jacob, but for the world. So lets see what Christ says happens before those days.

But BEFORE the last days:

(Luke 21:12-24) “But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name’s sake. {13} And it shall turn to you for a testimony. {14} Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: ......

{24} And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

(Matthew 24:9-28) “Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake....

{14} And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. {15} When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand {16}

....Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: {17} Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: {18} Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

....{19} And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! {20} But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: {21} For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. {22} And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened

...This is what is muddying the waters right here. You see, unlike a lot of people, I don’t have a problem stating the obvious concerning the Bible in certain instances as it has been translated to us being a giant ball of confusion.

Luke says the “beginning of sorrows” comes AFTER Jacobs trouble, while Matthew says it happens before Jacob’s trouble with the word “Then”, putting Jacobs trouble in a future context. Even a cursory understanding of old testament prophecy and some common sense should tell you which one is correct. For one, he says the gospel must be preached to all nations, and THEN the end shall come. But as stated before, by “end”, he isn’t talking about the end of the world here. The context is Israel’s destruction and Jacobs scattering in bondage. After the Great Commission was given to his Apostles, and Paul preached to the Gentiles, only THEN did the end of Israel as a nation come, and their “great tribulation” began. This is what is clearly shown in Revelation 7 with Israel, the "great multitude" whom God scattered into many nations, coming OUT of Great Tribulation. Putting this issue to rest. As shown below, the “beginning of sorrows” is basically the four horsemen almost down to a T. The black horse is the only one missing.

The White Horse:

(Matthew 24:4-6) “And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. {5} For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. {6} And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.”

(Revelation 6:2) “And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.”

The Red Horse:

(Matthew 24:7) “For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:………

(Revelation 6:3-4) “And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. {4} And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.”

The Pale Horse:

(Matthew 24:7) “and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.”

(Revelation 6:7-8) “And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. {8} And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.”

So, understanding this, when Christ speaks of “great tribulation” in his Olivet speech, he is not really talking about the tribulation that comes down on the earth, but on Israel. Israel's “great tribulation” started eons ago, and hasn’t quite ended just yet, because the time of the gentiles hasn’t yet come to its fulfillment. But God is just now seeing to that with the four horsemen. This is why Luke places the “time of the Gentiles” coming to an end right before the Day of the Lord,

And again, this occurs at the sixth seal, not the last trumpet. And in Revelation, the Day of the Lord event is separated from Christs actual second coming. His actual second coming doesn't occur until after the seventh vial is poured on the earth, which is WAY later, and the scriptures below proves it once and for all.

The Battle of Armageddon:

(Revelation 16:12-14) "And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. {13} And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. {14} For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."

(Revelation 19:19) "And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

So, when reading Revelation with the proper lens, from left to right like any other book, this is EXACTLY what you see happen. When Christ said that Israel's tribulation will be cut short, this is exactly how Revelation describes it and John says the exact same thing in Revelation chapter 7.

So basically, its John way of saying “your captivity is ending”. As Israel’s tribulation ends, the world will be transitioning into their tribulation, their captivity, as Revelation 13 plainly states for both the unbeliever and the gentile "saints". Now, if you "saints" believe you are of the 12 tribes because your ancestors were scattered across the four corners of the earth in bondage, all power to you. We are of course supposed to believe its just a massive coincidence that this is exactly what happened during the trans-Atlantic slave trade, but I've already said what needed to be said on that in another thread.

 

[Dcopymope]

The Last trumpet has to do with the church being raptured.... That was the Mystery reveled to Paul.

The "church" in context in Revelation is all about Israel, the seed of Jacob. Yet again, it has nothing to do with gentiles. This is made crystal clear when Jesus was speaking to the seven churches in the scriptures below.

(Revelation 2:8-9) "And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write;....

{9} I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan."

(Revelation 3:7-) "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write;....

(Revelation 3:9) "Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee."

Now, later on, John says the "holy city" is still in the hands of these same Gentiles in Rev 11, these imposters who "say they are Jews and are not". One of if not THE greatest deceptions ever foisted on the world are these frauds in Israel now claiming someone else's identity. And you, in point of fact, are doing the exact same thing by making the book about you and your lying churches.

 

[David H.]

So basically, its John way of saying “your captivity is ending”. As Israel’s tribulation ends, the world will be transitioning into their tribulation, their captivity, as Revelation 13 plainly states for both the unbeliever and the gentile "saints". Now, if you "saints" believe you are of the 12 tribes because your ancestors were scattered across the four corners of the earth in bondage, all power to you. We are of course supposed to believe its just a massive coincidence that this is exactly what happened during the trans-Atlantic slave trade, but I've already said what needed to be said on that in another thread.

The "church" in context in Revelation is all about Israel, the seed of Jacob. Yet again, it has nothing to do with gentiles. This is made crystal clear when Jesus was speaking to the seven churches in the scriptures below.

The Church is not Israel, and Israelis not the Church. If you actually would read Romans 9-11 you would understand this distinction and why when the fulness of the gentiles comes in , only then will Israel be redeemed as Per Zechariah 12:10-12. You also fail to understand the fact that Israel rejected Jesus their messiah, and for this they will drink of the cup of the Wrath of God till they are drunk, Before they have their Blinders removed from their Eyes, and See The LORD whom they have Pierced.

Isaiah 51:17ff speaks of this cup, which is the same cup The wicked will drink of as Spoken of in Jeremiah 25,Which doe not begin until the Seventh Trumpet. (Revelation 11:18) When the Wrath of God is unleashed and the righteous are rewarded. The Righteous, those who are made righteous by the Blood of the Lamb will not witness the wrath of God, Just like Israel did during the Passover and those who are made righteous by the Blood are the Church, Where there is neither Jew nor Gentile, But all are One.

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Galatians 3:26-29)

You See in Christ Jesus There is no division such as your theology wants to promote, there is not Black and white, No Jew nor Gentile, No Slave nor free, No man nor woman, because all are one in Christ Jesus the LORD. That is the Point of all of Paul's Words from Philippians where he counts all his heritage as DUNG, Compared to the New Birth in Christ Jesus and the New Covenant by the Blood of the Lamb.

 

[Brakelite]

Perhaps. However, I would caution the notion that just because God seems to have Paul teach that Jewish people will be bought back to him, or ‘grafted back onto the tree’ after the times of the Gentiles are complete, that that automatically means there is a “different program”, for lack of a better word, for the Jews.
The bible seems to clearly teach that there is ONE way to God…through Christ. Through being grafted onto this tree, to use Paul’s analogy. We see the national Jews were removed from that tree because of their unbelief in Christ, and Gentiles were grafted on when they accept him, along with remaining believing Jews. The promise that unbelieving Jews will be added back on IF they come to Christ, tells us that in truth, there is no separate program for them…they must become one with us all, as we are one in Christ.

And I would suggest that this grafting back is on an individual basis, not a national basis.

 

[amigo de christo]

And I would suggest that this grafting back is on an individual basis, not a national basis.

It is . ONLY THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN JESUS can be grafted into that tree .
Did we ever hear paul , JESUS ABOVE ALL , peter , james or jude , let the jews feel like Gods kids .
NOPE . JESUS told some of them YE are of your Father the DIABLO , DEVIL .
The flesh profits nothing . It profits nothing . Jews and gentiles alike will burn in the lake of fire if they reject JESUS .
I TAKE THIS TO MY GRAVE or till the LORD does come . NO other name saves , and no other plan of salvation will i teach , say or preach .
I shun to hell fire ten thousand fold this all inclusive false love go spell being taught today . I shun it to hades .
I shall POINT TO JESUS alone .

 

[Truth7t7]

It is . ONLY THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN JESUS can be grafted into that tree .
Did we ever hear paul , JESUS ABOVE ALL , peter , james or jude , let the jews feel like Gods kids .
NOPE . JESUS told some of them YE are of your Father the DIABLO , DEVIL .
The flesh profits nothing . It profits nothing . Jews and gentiles alike will burn in the lake of fire if they reject JESUS .
I TAKE THIS TO MY GRAVE or till the LORD does come . NO other name saves , and no other plan of salvation will i teach , say or preach .
I shun to hell fire ten thousand fold this all inclusive false love go spell being taught today . I shun it to hades .
I shall POINT TO JESUS alone .

Amen!

 

[Truth7t7]

Now, later on, John says the "holy city" is still in the hands of these same Gentiles in Rev 11, these imposters who "say they are Jews and are not". One of if not THE greatest deceptions ever foisted on the world are these frauds in Israel now claiming someone else's identity. And you, in point of fact, are doing the exact same thing by making the book about you and your lying churches.

"Someone Else's Identity"?

Where On Earth Can These True Israelites Be Found?

Please Expound In Detail, Don't Hold Back?

 

[amigo de christo]

Where On Earth Can These True Israelites Be Found?

Please Expound In Detail, Don't Hold Back?

I have an even better question my friend . Remember how paul says the ISRAEL OF GOD .
Then in another place HE says , they are not all of ISRAEL who are of israel .
The ISRAEL OF GOD ..................now you might want to sit down in case this shocks you , IS THOSE WHO PROFESS AND BELIEVE IN JESUS .
THERE IS a true kingdom NOW . THE TRUE ISRAEL with the TRUE JERSUALEM . ITS ABOVE and JESUS IS SEATED at the RIGHT HAND
of the FATHER . Want access into true jerusalem . COME YE TO JESUS . WHERE GOD and the LAMB are the TEMPLE .
AS is written , i might add , IN REVELATION . Folks putting all they hopes on earthen and earthly things .
JESUS ALONE IS THE ONLY WAY UNTO THE FATHER , INTO THE KINGDOM that is above . Heavenly JERUSALEM
or even as it says in revelation , THE NEW JERUSALEM .
This jersualem on earth , IS STILL IN BONDAGE as it was in pauls days and time .
They support the same evil EVERY OTHER NATION DOES . NO JEW , NO GENTILE is the son or daughter of GOD , LEST HE or SHE believes IN CHRIST .
I TAKE IT TO MY GRAVE . I SHUN mens doctrines to hades and unto hell . I WONT listen to them . WE MUST learn our bibles and do so FAST .
Cause men are deceiving on a scale i have never seen before . ITS getting real bad now and only worse shall it get .

 

[Dcopymope]

12. You also fail to understand the fact that Israel rejected Jesus their messiah, and for this they will drink of the cup of the Wrath of God till they are drunk, Before they have their Blinders removed from their Eyes, and See The LORD whom they have Pierced.

They already have...My ancestors lynched the savior from a tree, and so were they.

What goes around.....

Comes around

(Deuteronomy 28:26) "And your dead body shall be food for all birds of the air and for the beasts of the earth, and there shall be no one to frighten them away."

(Matthew 27:22-25) "Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified. {23} And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified. {24} ¶ When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. {25} Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children."

Jacobs trouble is coming to an end, now its judgement time on the gentile.

(Revelation 3:9-10) "Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. {10} Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

And about that scripture in Deut 28...It was not an idle threat. It was prophecy, bound to happen.

(Deuteronomy 28:45-46) "Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee: {46} And they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever."

(Deuteronomy 30:1-2) "And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, {2} And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;"