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Why No Women Speaking In Church

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by Pariah, Jun 4, 2009.

  1. Pariah

    Pariah New Member

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    Ephesians 4: 14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.1 Timothy 2: 11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.There is no doubt as to why men should lead in the assembly:Ephesians 5: 22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.1 Corinthians 11: 2Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. 3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 4Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. 5But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. 6For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. 7For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. 8For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. 9Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. 10For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. 11Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. 12For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God. 13Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered? 14Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? 15But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. 16But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God. 17Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. Concerning women speaking in tongues: Why would the Lord manifest tongues in women speaking in the assembly if the Lord has given the commandment for women to be silent in the assembly? Is the Lord a hypocrit? No. but I would exhoirt you to discern the tongues and the means by which you supposedly received them... by another "baptism of the Holy Spirit"? ... by an anointing that you believe is different from the baptism of the Spirit at salvation?1 John 2:24Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. 26These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 29If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.It is unrighteous for a woman to speak in tongues and to teach in the assembly.1 Corinthians 14:32And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. Verse 36 above declares how the Word of God must first come to man.Does any man wishes to be ignorant of the order set by God? How difficult it would be to discern false teaching?As women are led by the Lord to prophesy or to preach in the mission field, I would exhort the men led by the Spirit of God to be careful and discern all teachings from any woman so as to not be led nor influenced by them. If you are not sure about something or if it is a teaching that is being explored, then why teach it as if it is so? Those led by the Spirit of Truth will not cast out seeds of doubts and uncertainity caused by the scriptures if the same scriptures reproves those teachings as false.Let us not be carried away into fables nor puff ourselves up in pride and vainglorying over "special hidden knowledge" that does not arm ourselves against any wiles of the devil nor cause us to be edified in the knowledge of Him so that our love may abound yet more and more. Let no one exalt having secret knowledge over another by belittling them as some would do for having the gift of tongue which comes without interpretation over those that do not, for then, it may not be of the Lord. Watch yourselves in all things, leaning on Jesus and trusting Him to be your Good Shepherd for He will lead as promised.
     
  2. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    So does the Word of God bear false witness against itself, or do certain folks like to take one verse out of its obvious context and run with it?
     
  3. pia

    pia Well-Known Member

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    Hello Pariah........ Paul made it clear several times that he also wrote his own opinions in these letters. Compare what you're thinking here with Gal.4:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither MALE nor FEMALE, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."We were all 'married' to the world before, but when we accepted Jesus, we died to that 'spouse' and now we are His beloved, His betrothed, and it matters not what gender you are in the flesh. Both male and female (as we call it)shall be 'married' to the Lord and He shall be the Head of His household.Remember it isn't the flesh that The Lord is saving, it's our spirit, and in the spirit there is no difference. God bless you Pia;
     
  4. Pariah

    Pariah New Member

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    Luke 2:36-38 is NOT an example of what I had stated three paragraphs up from the bottom of the OP.
    Prophetess has been raised by God in the Old Testament when no man could be chosen to speak for Him as in the case of prophetess Deborah in regards to Gideon. When we hear of prophets, they are messengers in the streets as some turn out to be false prophets as they are stoned outside the Temple.By the testimony of two or three witnesses, can a witness be confirmed. Herein, God raised up Anna to add to the testimony of Simeon's when Mary and Joseph affered a sacrifice of a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons for Jesus at the Temple. So once again, the Word of God first came through the man. Since no other man was available, God had positioned Anna at the Temple so that during her fasting and praying, when she came in, she added her testimony to Simeon's. She was not preaching nor permitted to teach. She had borne witness. Simeon by custom would be the one to do so as all Anna was doing was praying and fasting during her time in the Temple. As it was.. this was not during a "service" where an assembly had gathered to hear the scriptures. Luke 2:22And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord; 23(As it is written in the law of the LORD, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;) 24And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons. 25And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. 26And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 27And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, 28Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, 29Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: 30For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, 31Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; 32A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. 33And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him. 34And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; 35(Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed. 36And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; 37And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. 38And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem. 39And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.Now that Christ has risen, the order is still maintained as far as the worship service goes. Paul made those instructions clear. I pray that the Lord will enable you to not to take an event to mean it is contrary to what is plainly written for that is what the Pentecostals and Charismatics are doing with the Book of Acts when they are preaching another baptism of the Holy Spirit when the letters plainly written to the churches saying there is only one and at salvation as promised by Jesus.
    Yes, when Paul made it clear when he is speaking his opinions, you will know when it is his opinions and when it is not. In 1 Corinthians 14:37, he made it clear that it was not an opinion, but a commandment from the Lord.Although it is true that there ie neither male nor female in Christ, still the order has been given by God in how the assembly were to administer and how He will distribute the Word, just as there are deacons and elders. It is not contrary to what you had shared: it is about being submissive to Christ as the man should be in being led by the Spirit of God... and as the woman should be to Christ by being submissive to the husband. For a woman to be raised up and continued to be raised up without reproving the men to take the lead in being submissive to Christ, then God would cease raising the woman up for she would not be raised for any other purpose other than to restore the order in the church, thus speaking as one outside the church. I dare say, I could see that happening,( but that is my opinion I am writing here now about possibly seeing that happening) but yet God is able to raise a man up, even outside the congregation to speak to the matter at hand in keeping with His commandment.
     
  5. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Women are teach other woman the children .. God never intended women were not to teach or not equal in Gods eyes or his knowledge ..Just that their is an order to things ....all things have an order ....However in this modern day the order has broken down the Bishops /Elders (men) no longer follow the Rules.But seem to have no problem stating Woman should... The church is full of rule breakers and false prophets and God never intended anyone.. Woman or men to be silent and follow them. God says "your sons and your daughters shall prophesy I could mention Miriam, Deborah, Huldah in the Old Testament and Priscilla, Phoebe in the New Testament. Deborah, she was the only female judge amongst 13 male judges. In relation to Huldah, she was the female prophet among dozens of male prophets mentioned in the Bible. Miriam's connection to leadership due to her being the sister of Moses and Aaron. In the Book of Acts, chapter 18, Priscilla and Aquila are presented as faithful ministers for Christ. Priscilla's name is mentioned first, likely indicating that she was more "prominent" in ministry than her husband.Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3-5). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women were restricted from is having authority over menWe are however only to fully submitt to men that follow the rules and are deserving.. We dont have authority over them but we should never sumitt to them but rather stay clear of them ... Women excel in gifts of hospitality, mercy, teaching and helps. Much of the ministry of the church depends on women. Women in the church are not restricted to public praying or prophesying (1 Corinthians 11:5), only to having authority over men. The Bible nowhere restricts women from exercising the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12). Women, just as much as men, are called to minister to others, to demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), and to proclaim the Gospel to the lost (Matthew 28:18-20; Acts 1:8; 1 Peter 3:15).So women are able to be teachers, given wisdom, knowledge ect. this is without dispute, We also know male and female are equal in relationship to Christ ..However they simply are not given authortiy over men.All this is true however the Bible also gives us the perfect standard by which we are to liveIn a perfect world this would be very accetable however we do not live in a perfect worldLet us look for a moment at the Role men are supposed play as a husband they are to behave as Christ The husband is to assume headship/leadership in the home (1 Corinthians 11:3; Ephesians 5:23). This headship should not be dictatorial, condescending, or patronizing of the wife, but should be in accordance with the example of Christ leading the Church. “You husbands must love your wives with the same love Christ showed the church. He gave up his life for her to make her holy and clean, washed by baptism and God's word” (Ephesians 5:25-26). Christ loved the Church (His people) with compassion, mercy, forgiveness, respect, and selflessness; in this same way husbands are to love their wives.1 Timothy Chapter 31 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)6 Not a novice a novice: or, one newly come to the faithlest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. 8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; 9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. 11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. Now I might ask how many ministers, preachers, live up to this ??... I say not many... I therefore say that if men do not live up to their Role as ministers, preachers ... In scripture they are hardly in a postion to judge women as this would make them hypocrites.The fact is we have been given perfect rules for an imperfect World...... can we insist one rule be followed without exception, while others are not ? These are rules for us try to live by not commandments ... we live in confusing times ..We are the End Time generation where evil is all around us ..all manners of evil is called good. We need good pastors to lead the sheep period. So I see that Male and Female are equal in relationship to Christ Male and Female are both given authority to Teach under certain circumstances Male and Female are both faithful Servants to the Lord I believe it is for this reason we need to take good meat, from where we can get it, God clearly intends that he will use woman as well as men in this generation Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward , [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh ; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy , your old men shall dream dreams , your young men shall see visionsAct 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God , I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy , and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams : Surely if women are given divine revelation of prophesy by God as he states will happen... we should surley listen
     
  6. Pariah

    Pariah New Member

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    Priscilla and Aquila are perfect examples of what I had mentioned three paragraphs up from the bottom of the OP as ministers in the mission field and as from their houses, but they are to be silent in the churches during whic worship services being conducted, men are to be submissive to Christ to lead.At no time am I directing this OP to be applied to christian forums. I consider forums as missionary outreach as well as a crossroad for edifying believers and sharing the Word to non-believers alike so women can minister in this regard.But it is a commandment from the Lord for women to be silent in the churches. Men need to own up by submitting to Christ and minister and lead as He leads them.However, all teachings.. men or women must be confirmed by the Word of God. Paul said this best as far as edification in fellowship should be concerned. 1 Corinthians 2:2 Any teaching that does not profit the body withal in the knowledge of Him should be circumspect when it starts to take away His glory.
     
  7. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    Are you kidding me... Lately men of today are not stepping in to preach the Word of God, but rather their teachings of tradition of men. In fact Christ had no problem with Anna, who was a prophetess SPEAKING the Word of God to all... Also there were also other women who was a minister to Christ. I am all for the Word of God. And there is no where in the Bible where women aren't allowed to speak Truth...With all due respect, I just find it more sad, that men today are using scriptures to try to shut up all women, especially today.
     
  8. pia

    pia Well-Known Member

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    I'm having a bit of trouble understanding how this is still taught. If it were true, Jesus certainly wouldn't teach women, nor tell them of things to come, and I can personally attest to the fact that He does.Men in the days of Paul were used to thinking of women being the ones who brought evil into the world, as he describes elsewhere in his letters, therefore they were not thought to be 'right' to receive The Word of the Lord, but rather ( according to Paul ) they would be saved through having babies.It's no wonder that The Lord wanted to teach people Himself, after seeing how man had misunderstood and twisted the old scriptures."The written letter killeth, but The Spirit bringeth Life." Anything set in stone becomes unyielding, and therefore excludes mercy, which is what God wanted us to learn, more than anything else. Other than the knowledge of Himself. The minute you make a law of something, it's set. Why on earth ( or heaven for that matter), would God have nailed the old laws to the cross, only to make new (much more confusing) laws. Why would He tell us that we'd be saved by God's grace, if it all hinged on whether we could follow a bunch of laws, that every single denomination argues over all over this earth ( strangely proclaiming to have all gotten it from the same source ) ?He meant for us to be taught by His Holy Spirit, that way there'd never be any confusion, because The Holy spirit is The Spirit of Truth itself/Himself...And if we were taught by The Holy Spirit, we'd know instantly, if someone was not speaking the truth.As was explained to me, the bible is a collection of God's Words to mankind as well as mankind's words to God, and on top of that, mankind's thoughts about God, how they thought He was, how they perceived Him.Also there's examples of how different things were, once The Lord wasn't among them anymore. Imagine having been with The Lord at His last supper, having had Jesus bow down and wash their feet, whilst explaining about serving, not being served, and then some years later refusing to help distribute food to the needy, as they were now too important for that. " It is not fitting that we should leave The Word of God to serve tables." this may not be word perfect, but it was clear how they had elevated themselves already, even though Jesus had told them that it was not to be so with them. Yes, they were the first to receive The Holy Spirit, but they were never meant to be the last !Can you imagine how beautiful a fellowship/family of Christians we would have upon this earth, if The Holy Spirit had been our only teacher, with Jesus, as the true head of His church? The mind boggles !Well I'll leave it there for now........In His Love PiaP.S. Sorry I forgot to write who I was replying to. It was to the one who started the post. Sorry don't know all the names, and I still can't figure out how not to put in the entire quote, when I go to individual replies
     
  9. Ruth

    Ruth New Member

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    I agree pia, some Christians take the bible and turn into rules and laws like the Pharisees, Jesus said His yoke is easy, but man still wants to burden us with rules and laws.If the lord has given you (a women) the gift of teaching and prophecy, it is to edify the "whole" church, not just women. Men may lead the church, but they should always allow the women to speak, and be used by God.Much of the scripture was written in a very different culture, Jesus let women into his discipleship and also women were first to visit His empty tomb and witness to His resurrection, when the witness of a women was worth nothing.DO NOT PUT GOD IN A BOX, HE WILL USE WOMEN, AS HE DOES MEN, TO TEACH ALL.
     
  10. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    I have seeing both, spirit filled men and women, and also men and women claiming to be from God, but they wouldnt know Him if they tripped over Him. God has the right to choose who He wills to spread His truth, wheter it be men, women , children or old people, what right do we have to presume that God is sexist in any way, Stop trying to create laws Jesus told the pharrisees all about how they made all these rules to become burdens to men , and even stopped people from finding God for themselves. We all have the right to learn from Jesus, just as we all have the freedom to preach the truth from Jesus the word of God.In His love
     
  11. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    These verses say nothing of Women not being teachers or filled with Gods spiritand I don't think Pariah was saying that NO Where in scripture does it say women can not be teachers or are not equal with men in spiritual knowledge ... It says women are to be quiet in church .... We have to remember the time in which we are talking ... and the proper order of things ... Being quiet in Church ... can mean several things 1. Women do not have authority over men Most all elders in the church were men if they followed God rules for elders, Bishops in doing so Women were to submit to their authority in Church. and be quiet.This doesn't mean woman were to sit in church and listen to lies ... You can leave.Nor does it mean men know more or less ..all Gods children are equal in the knowledge God chooses to give them ... Nor does it mean woman should submit to men not worthy i.e. Not behaving in a Godly way .. You don't have authority over them but are not required to submit to them either. again you should just avoid them 2. Woman were not equal in civil standing in those days therefore it was dangerous for them to speak out against men.3. Like it or not Woman often chatter more than men and church should be about worshipping our father not discussing chatterof the home ect.
     
  12. Pariah

    Pariah New Member

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    And proof of that is by allowing women to teach. That is hardly of men submitting to Christ to be leaders.
    Simon spoke first. Simon was the head honcho in the Temple.Anna was fasting and praying in the Temple when she came in and did her witness.Out of the mouth of two or more witnesses that every thing may be confirmed.And Christ was a baby at the time.The old ways of raising up propehts and prophetess was still in place. If no man can be raised, then a woman would be. Prophets are known not to be teachers in the synagogue but of the streets and of the mission field. When a woman is raised up to be a prophetess, that goes to show how bad things are in regards to the men. Since this was the description of the way things were when Christ came, we can see why a female prophetess was raised up.Matthew 4: 12Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee; 13And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim: 14That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, 15The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles; 16The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up. 17From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Such was the condition of man that sat in darkness:Romans 3: 10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17And the way of peace have they not known: 18There is no fear of God before their eyes.So I can see why a prophetess was raised up. Do you?
    Women are allowed to minister in the mission field as I had posyted before earlier, but in the assembly that is supposedly after Christ and like-minded... the men are to be leaders as the women are to be silent and not teach for God is able to enable men to be able ministers.It is not about shutting women up as it is about pointing out the poor condition of the churches. As it is a commandment from the Lord as 1 Corinthians 14:37 is being overlooked by you... if God ever did raise a woman up to speak, it would be to restore the order within the church in getting men where they belong as leaders. Then once God has raised the men to take their rightful place as leaders and thus submitting to Christ, so will the woman He would raise up go back to being silent in the assembly. But guess what? That is not happening at all.Such is the poor condition of the churches and the ignorance within. 1 Corinthians 14:38The Word of God first came through the man; not through the woman. That is the order of things in how God says He will operate. 1 Corinthians 14:36So in all respect, there is an irony in Christian's signature choice for a verse Amos 8:11 That irony is multipled by the fables that are being taught here. No one is able to hear the Word of God in spite of what is plainly written.May the Lord cause the increase and recover some from the snares of the devil because ignorance is not bliss.
     
  13. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    Joel 2:28 - And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:Joel 2:29 - And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.Acts 2:16 - But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;Acts 2:17 - And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:Acts 2:18 - And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:What does prophesy means? To Teach.With all due respect, I mean seriously, you are quoting scriptures that you yourself claimed us to be ignorant... Go look at your messy self, before you even accuse us of anything. You seem to in my honest opinion want to dictate women into ALL kinds of obedience of fallacy of man, even when they don't want to stop leaning on traditions of men... We won't follow your christ. (II Corinthians 11:4, Mark 7:7,8,9) We will follow the Living Christ. (John 14:6)
     
  14. Pariah

    Pariah New Member

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    There is a difference between teaching women and having women to teach in an assembly.
    Paul makes it clear when he states his opinion and when he speaks for the Lord. The commandment for women to be silent in the church is from the Lord. 1 Corinthians 14:32-38 Women can minister in the mission field.1 Timothy 2: 7Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. 8I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. 9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.Ministering to the Gentiles, one cannot say Paul was expecting Jewish traditions to be accepted by Gentile believers, so when speaking about women of the Gentile believers in not being leaders and teachers, he refers to childbearing as an obvious optional choice while making the point clear about salvation in regards to continuing in faith, and with faith, the works of charity, and holiness with sobriety as abiding in Him since a call against drunkeness seemed to be necessary for those particular Gentiles.In other words, a woman is not saved through childbearing if she did not continue in faith.So the childbearing alternative to being a leader and a teacher is what that was all about as salvation is by continuing in the faith, and with it, the exhortation for charity and sobriety.
    Women complain about men procrastinating and taking a backseat to everything. Of all the places men should not be able to wiggle out of, and yet the women let them by taking leadership roles and teaching positions.
    Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14:37 that if any man be ignorant, let them, but considering the condition of the latter days prophesies of believers falling away from the faith, it is obvious to me that ignorance is not bliss. All I can do is point out th condition of any church by that consition. It is up to the believers and their church if they wish to continue in ignorance or not.
    It is all about men taking leadership roles as Christ is the Head of the church, so is Man is the head of every woman. It is about men submitting to Christ... not about women submitting to the men. The women submit to Christ by allowing the men to take their leadership roles.
    And yet Paul led by the Spirit of God delivered the commandment from the Lored for women to be silent as men are to teach and lead in the assembly. If Paul made an error, no way would God permit him to continue without correcting him.
    Not really.2 Timothy 3:15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.2 Peter 1: 19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
    That is not the full story. It was because numbers had increased that they could not serve in that capacity and still minister the Word and so God raised up volunteers that were free to take up the task. Does a church subsist of a pastor only? Or are there not other members of the body to minister?Acts 6: 1And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration. 2Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables. 3Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business. 4But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word. 5And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch: 6Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them. 7And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.
    We are to lean on Jesus Christ as Our Good Shepherd as the Holy Spirit will speak only what He hears. The Holy Spirit will bring back into remembrance all things Jesus has taught unto us. We can rest in that promise while our eyes are on Christ Jesus, Whom the indwelling Holy Spirit is still pointing to as the scriptures are also in coming to God the Father.
    You will always be in His love thanks to Jesus Christ.Romans 8:33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    It's Pariah, but that is okay. I trust the Lord to put the words on my fingertips to type as well as the words on my mouth to speak. It is on Him to enable me to edify as it is on Him to cause the increase.Matthew 10: 18And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. 19But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.1 Corinthians 3:5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
     
  15. pia

    pia Well-Known Member

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    Hello there Ruth.......Thank you.......It has taken The Lord some 24 years to get me to understand some of these things, even though I wasn't brought up with any religious beliefs as such.......But when I was informed of the gift of The Holy Spirit, and receiving Him,that was a different kettle of fish all together.Unfortunately I did think I'd meet lots of people who'd encountered Jesus, in various churches, but they were very few and far between, and to be very honest, had I not been allowed to meet Jesus, I would have most likely walked away, because not only don't most Christians believe in the actual reality of Jesus ( here with us ), but they have these insane rules and laws that I for one have trouble understanding.......Just one example is the fact that they think one has to go to worldly bible schools and get degrees to be able to hear and understand The Lord and His ways.So they reject any words from Him, if they come through someone who the people regard as not worthy enough or what ever.If this were true, every theologian on this planet, would be spiritual giants, and this is most certainly not so!The thing is, He has no problem explaining things to us, in ways that we can understand, and I also realize that we're all at different stages in our walk with Him, so we may not always receive the exact same things from Him. But in the end He will bring us all together in Himself, in THE TRUTH.Bless you Ruth, thanks...........Together in Him PiaHello mjrhealth.Hear, hear! It astounds me how many people think they can tell God, what He can and can't do. HE IS GOD !But it is a shame that it ends up hurting so many people, who have come to Him, only to be torn in pieces byothers, who claim to love Him, and who claim to know things, that they quite obviously do not.They should also realize that if a person HAS received Word from the Lord, and passes it on, and they reject it outright,they are not rejecting the messenger, but The One who sent the Word.Thanks for your input..........In His love Pia
    Hey mjrhealth........Sorry I somehow got my reply to you, under the same as my reply to Ruth. Not sure how.Pia
     
  16. pia

    pia Well-Known Member

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    Hello pariah......Sorry I still can't seem to shorten the quotes when I want to reply, so the lot's there.You say that it was a commandment from The Lord?.......Did Jesus not say that He would leave only one commandment with us ( in two parts )?..........His commandment was to love God with all of our heart, all our minds, all our souls and all of our strength and to love all mankind as we love ourselves.There are too many passages about this subject to list here, but a look through the four surviving gospels ( I believe there were 22 or 24 gospels to begin with,which a catholic scribe decided to get rid of, over 300 years after Jesus' death ) shows us, that this one commandment encompasses all of His commandments.What a wonderful world we could have had, if all men ( mankind ) would do just that......Love everyone equally and forgive all transgressions, as you would have your own forgiven........Show mercy to all ( which has been God's wish all along ).The bible tells us that God is love and I fully believe that, not because it's written in a book, but because when I've been with Him, that love is un-missable. And what does love do, but love?....What could love do, but love?The truth is, that His love is so much higher, so much purer than anything we could possibly understand, and because men have dragged God's personality down to a slightly better level than human love, it's become even harder for us.Jesus wants us to come to Him, rest in Him, trust Him, learn from Him and to be yoked with Him....Not to replace one set of hard burdens and laws with yet another.The bible can point us to Christ, but once there, let the written word be replaced with His pure word of Truth, that way we could all come together in His Truth, which is also His love.In Him Pia
    Hi Jordan.........Thank you too........Yes we do need to be vigilant don't we.....bless youlove pia
     
  17. Pariah

    Pariah New Member

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    Paul was referring to the commandment from the Lord in regards to the operation of the church, but it is also written that if anyone be ignorant, then let them be ignorant.1 Corinthians 14: 32And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. 39Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. 40Let all things be done decently and in order.1 Timothy 2:11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.If believers want to ignore plainly what is written as far as the operation in the church as God would prefer it, just as Paul, led by the Holy Spirit, gave the description of the qualifications for the office of bishops and deacons... then it is no wonder why the Word of God is not being heard... nor heeded.Women do serve the Lord in the mission field as prophets. I have stated that as I agree with Jordan's reference of:
    But I do not agree with Jordan's application, because Pauls' writings clearly does not agree with it. Women are not to preach nor teach in the assembly as the Word of God will come to man first. In the mission field and from their homes where they can hold a fellowship, women serve the Lord as prophest and teachers, but men are called to be submissive to Christ to lead in the assembly and not take a backseat role in the church or the assembly.But as we are living in the latter days, it is obvious that the current traditions will never go back to the decency nor order held in the early church days. So I shall drop the subject since Paul said to let those that have forgotten to continue to be ignorant. If no one cannot discern the word as a commandment from the Lord, then nothing I say nor Paul will convince them. God has to do it.Thank you all for your time and attention, but God does not appear to be causing the increase at this time. Maybe later.. but apparently... not right now.
     
  18. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    Actually Pariah, the disciples got it wrong. did not Jesus say,(Mat 23:8) But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.(Mat 23:9) And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.(Mat 23:10) Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.(Mat 23:11) But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.(Mat 23:12) And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.Yet the disciples in " there " own wisdom set up a sytem that He was trying to undo.(Act 6:1) And in those days, when the number of the disciples were multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.And in Luke,(Luk 22:25) And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.(Luk 22:26) But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.(Luk 22:27) For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.Yet they decided serving was not for them(Act 6:2) Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.Again Jesus said, Mat 10:24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. We must stop putting the disciples as equals to Jesus they where far short of Him, just look at the number of times He had to rebuke them or take them aside to show them things, they where still living with all the religion thay had being taught which is where all that stuff comes from it is not from God.If you want the truth, go to Jesus, if you want to grow, go to Jesus, if you are comfortable with where you are at , then stay in the bible but it will stunt your growth.In His love
     
  19. Pariah

    Pariah New Member

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    They were not to be called masters or Rabbi or fathers in the sense that they would be seen as benefactors as living off of others. That is why the tithing system was no longr mentioned in the New Testament and why they insist that any thing the ministering saints receive from the church will be from cheerful givers as in what the Lord provides through them. The whole of the bounty was not for the saints, but only a portion of it was, while they had used the majority for meeting the needs of the poor among them or what needs there be in the community.
    This is a perfect example as to why there should be leaders in the church. No two people can lead in a dance and thus to meet the needs of the widows from the bounty collected, someone has to be in charge. Volunteers were asked to meet the needs while those that minister to the Word and to the spreading of the Gospel were free to do so. One has to be careful about the hypocrisey of proving one point when by doing so, they are only proving the other point. There are different gifts of the Spirit and different administration as well as different offices. There is no way one can say that there are to be no leaders in the church for then how can anyoine keep out error except to whom the elders or bishops are responsible for? Who can minister to the needs of the assembly unless someone is designated the responsibility as deacons? As in your case, why look to those ministering the word to do EVERYTHING in the church to do unless they were looking to a leader?So no. God set up a system to run the church, but He did not set up a system where disciples were to live off of the church as benefactors, but as it is, the christian churches today has been so Americanized, that the idea of doing away with tithes and pledges to minister by faith in God's Providence is irresponsible in many eyes of the believers. Yet TODAY we see how many have taken those offices to become benefactors to be called fathers and masters and so forth, the we can see the description of the Pharisees and the scribes Jesus blasted away back then.Matthew 23: 2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,That is not what the disciples were doing back in those days.1 Corinthians 3: 1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? 5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.Even though several verses Paul spoke of being a father unto those he had preached the Gospel to, it was never to have a groupie but to declare his responsibility to lead by example.Philippians 3: 14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 16Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. 17Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. 18(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
    Again, they were not like the Pharisees in being benefactors. They brought this to their attention because why? They were leaders. They cannot do everything in the church and God did not set it up for any member of Christ to be valueless. Ever member plays a part in the body... to serve... to administer... to minister...
    You forget the gifts of the Spirit as God was working through them. If Stephen and Ananias dropped dead for lying to God and to everyone to maintain a false image of charity, then do you really think the Lord would not chasten those that serve Him so early when the church was just starting out?
    I do not go to church. My pointing out that women are not to be speaking in church is to show a red flag for those to discern and to keep on discerning by the Word of God that the way the church runs today is not the way the church ran back then in the NT. Jesus has become my refuge. May others see the need to depart from the erring churches if they ignore or refuse correction by the word of God so that their faith may be seen as apart from that erring church. Course, one can hope that the church will listen, take heed, and make the necessary correction till they all come to the unity of the faith in Christ.
     
  20. pia

    pia Well-Known Member

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    Hi 'mjrhealth'........Absolutely right on!....I'm constantly amazed that people WILL NOT do the simple thing, and SUBMIT their little wretched selves, to Him !.....Only when we do that, only once we know, there is NO WAY we,re EVER going to make ourselves right with God, through adherence to written books, instead of his Living word, The Man ( now resurrected ) Jesus.I used to believe that He was real, but only in Heaven.....Once you open to His reality HERE,right with you, right in front of your face, if you 'say' His name.....I'm NOT lying! He IS THERE, but for the two of you to come together, you must believe Him, with all of your heart.Why do we all insist, like little kiddies, no, no let me do it myself?..Every day I catch myself doing it, even after all these years, but thanks be to Him, He patiently takes me through.....Right to the end, if I don't stop believing in Him!In His Love Pia
     
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