Why People Don't Believe: Sex & Time

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Bob Estey

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It is necessary to have marriage?
I don’t think I can improve on the apostle Paul’s answer to that question:

[36] If any one thinks that he is not behaving properly toward his betrothed, if his passions are strong, and it has to be, let him do as he wishes: let them marry -- it is no sin.
[37] But whoever is firmly established in his heart, being under no necessity but having his desire under control, and has determined this in his heart, to keep her as his betrothed, he will do well.
[38] So that he who marries his betrothed does well; and he who refrains from marriage will do better. I Corinthians 7:36-38 RSV
 

Wrangler

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Haven’t you paid attention to anything I’ve written? These obtuse ‘conversations’ go in circles. Who’s on 1st? Prohibition against homosexuality. What’s on 2nd? Men compromising the Bride and Wife in a marriage. I don’t know’s on 3rd? Having homosexual sex in a gay marriage.

It’s symbolic - AS IF it changes anything.

i seemed to rub you the wrong way

I meant 'you' in the plural sense. Many obtuse replies, avoiding the apparent contradictions that keep people from believing.
 
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Wrangler

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I don’t think I can improve on the apostle Paul’s answer to that question

The apostle Paul was not addressing the question of this thread, which is Biblically supported gay marriage, where men comprise the Bride and Wife in the marriage to Christ.
 

Bob Estey

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The apostle Paul was not addressing the question of this thread, which is Biblically supported gay marriage, where men comprise the Bride and Wife in the marriage to Christ.
God himself addressed the issue quite clearly in Leviticus 18:22. Was God wrong? Of course, God is never wrong, so the question is answered, as far as I am concerned.
 

ScottA

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Just finished reading Revelations. I'll add the verses later but it occurred to me why people don't believe and it involves sex and time.

Regarding sex; condemnations against homosexuality has to be seen as in the context of the Bride and Wife of the Lamb, who is made up of many men.

Regarding time; Jesus says he is coming soon and very soon. See Rev 22:7, 12, 22. At another place, he says his return is before this generation will pass. It is under obvious that the Apostles thought the End Times, the 2nd Coming of Christ would be in their lifetimes.

To resist the concerns of these points, is IMO, like the wind against a kite - the cause of the disbelief to rise, to be reinforced and solidified. While Christ followers seem to find it easier to address the concerns over sex, the tendency is to defend the concerns over time, which either goes against 2 Corinthians 1:13 or is condescending of their "understanding", such as a day is like a thousand years to the LORD. (This side steps the point of the timing for us humans.)

Rather than defend HOW Scripture is right and our understanding it wrong, I think it would be more effective at persuasion to concede that these are concerning matters (you understand their concerns) and that like them, you too don't fully understand all of Scripture (without going into specifics), then turn attention to why you do believe and why they should believe also.

IMO, this is an opportunity to build a relationship with other image bearer's of God rather than deepen the divide over theological minutia - compared to helping to bring another soul to Christ. Thoughts?
Love it! I would love to chime in, we'll see, but may have to wait until I get back from my travels.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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The apostle Paul was not addressing the question of this thread, which is Biblically supported gay marriage, where men comprise the Bride and Wife in the marriage to Christ.
I knew you were trying to advocate homosexuality in some screwy confused way. There is no apparent contradiction in the comparison, a "simile". One is the marriage between man and women becoming ONE in our physical realm of humanity (which by the way homosexual marriage can never have according to God) and the other is a spiritual relationship between belivers and Christ as ONE. There is no sex involved in the spiritual realm, but there is marriage and it is NOT likened to a gay marriage.
I suppose this kind of thinking would be common in a "Gay" church, trying to justify their lifestyles. They march for gay rights on earth so you would expect some to petition God for them as well. They don't accept what the Bible says about their sin so I they must distort scripture to accomodate and justify their lifestyles, in abject denial of God's purpose. Gay marriage may be legal on earth - but not according to God.
Any gays out there? Stop what you are doing ( your lifestyle) , if you are married, get a divorce and that would be an act repentence, turning away from sin and turning towards God for forgiveness. Otherwise you are deceiving yourself thinking you'll get to heaven.
 

Wrangler

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I knew you were trying to advocate homosexuality in some screwy confused way.
Wrong. What you knew is wrong. It is about how to respond to those who don't believe because of the Bible's support for homosexuality in a marriage among men while condemning it in other places.

Rather than try to make me the subject, why not stick to the subject of the OP?
 

Ronald David Bruno

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It is about how to respond to those who don't believe because of the Bible's support for homosexuality in a marriage among men while condemning it in other places.

I did not imply you were gay, just that you are twisting scripture to somehow approve of homeosexuality. You obviously are an advocate -Left winger.

Great! How is it different? In one instance, men marry. In the other instance, men marry.
That is the point, the spiritual realm is different than the physical realm.
Simile is a figure of speech which is used to compare the relationship of a man and a woman in marriage and the relationship of the Church with Christ. What is the same is the oneness, when two become one and in God's eyes and His purpose, He created woman for man. He blessed and established their relationship and told them ti be fruitful and multiply. Gay marriage is not a marriage in heaven. Scripture literally says homosexuals will not see the kingdom of heaven.

Genesis 9:20–27
Genesis 19:1–11
Leviticus 18:22, 20:13
1 Corinthians 6:9–10
1 Timothy 1:10
Romans 1:26–27
 

Wrangler

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You obviously are an advocate -Left winger.

Doubling down on missing the mark. FYI, I was a Top 1% donor to Trump's campaign. It's hard to get more right wing than me. LOL

Scripture literally says homosexuals will not see the kingdom of heaven.

Agreed. And Scripture also says men (and women) will be the Bride and Wife of the man Jesus. This is an apparent contradiction and it is a reason people don't believe.

It is interesting that I gave examples; time being the other one. Yet, everyone is focused on the sex example that turns people off.

If you want to deny or ignore it, it begs the question of why you are posting in this thread? (To say it shouldn't turn people off, their understanding is flawed, is an example of this denial).
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Doubling down on missing the mark. FYI, I was a Top 1% donor to Trump's campaign. It's hard to get more right wing than me. LOL
Good, it seemed like you were advocating homosexuality.

And Scripture also says men (and women) will be the Bride and Wife of the man Jesus.
as or like a Bride in a spiritual reality. A man loves his wife as Christ loves the Church. A man becomes one with his wife AS we become ONE with Christ. It's about a loving bond in relationships.
 
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ScottA

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Regarding sex; condemnations against homosexuality has to be seen as in the context of the Bride and Wife of the Lamb, who is made up of many men.
Great point!

The sexual/gender references in the Bible refer to a mystery revealed by God to those who would hear it. It is not a people issue at all. It tells of God's desire for a companion, that come together as One...just as He prescribes it in marriage-- which was His plan, and has nothing to do with would-be sexual preference. It's about God's love for us.
Regarding time; Jesus says he is coming soon and very soon. See Rev 22:7, 12, 22. At another place, he says his return is before this generation will pass. It is under obvious that the Apostles thought the End Times, the 2nd Coming of Christ would be in their lifetimes.

To resist the concerns of these points, is IMO, like the wind against a kite - the cause of the disbelief to rise, to be reinforced and solidified. While Christ followers seem to find it easier to address the concerns over sex, the tendency is to defend the concerns over time, which either goes against 2 Corinthians 1:13 or is condescending of their "understanding", such as a day is like a thousand years to the LORD. (This side steps the point of the timing for us humans.)

Rather than defend HOW Scripture is right and our understanding it wrong, I think it would be more effective at persuasion to concede that these are concerning matters (you understand their concerns) and that like them, you too don't fully understand all of Scripture (without going into specifics), then turn attention to why you do believe and why they should believe also.

IMO, this is an opportunity to build a relationship with other image bearer's of God rather than deepen the divide over theological minutia - compared to helping to bring another soul to Christ. Thoughts?
Another great point!

No, "soon" and "very soon" (or "quickly")-- do not mean there is a mysterious "gap" in Jesus' plans for returning, or that obviously He had no idea, and it was therefore wrong of Him to state it as such.

But ask a thousand preachers, and you will get the same lame answer explaining away what Jesus apparently had wrong (according to them). It's just crazy-- they don't even "believe" Him, or take Him at his word!

So, no, it's just most people's way of explaining what they do not understand-- and Jesus' way of doing exactly what He said:

"But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two(*) and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 24:48-51​

The question then becomes... What then could Jesus have possibly meant, if "soon" was actually true? And from there, again comes a thousand more ways of explaining away "soon" not actually meaning "soon", and a thousand ways of wrongfully believing anyone and everyone but Jesus. Don't believe it!

And the correct answer?

"For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels." Matthew 16:27
...And what is "the glory of the Father?" "--God is spirit." Meaning [duh!], He comes in the spirit. Which, of course is just too off for those born of the flesh to bear--so they don't, and therefore resort to their own understanding. And here we are.

For those who can receive it, Paul goes on then to explain that the timing then, is not one massive future event, but that it occurs "each in his own order." Which is "that day and hour no one knows", of which there are only two(*) that come "each in his own order" --birth and death. That is, physical death for "the dead in Christ", and spiritual birth for "the living in Christ."

Of course, the gospels and the rest of scripture and the details therein, will then read considerably different than the teachings of men.
 
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marks

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The sexual/gender references in the Bible refer to a mystery revealed by God to those who would hear it. It is not a people issue at all. It tells of God's desire for a companion, that come together as One...just as He prescribes it in marriage-- which was His plan, and has nothing to do with would-be sexual preference. It's about God's love for us.
Amen!

Much love!
 
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Oh, one other thing. its not for us to judge people who are not about pro-creation, (man, woman,, children, traditional family) I'm sure people of other orientations will be judged "according to their works". That is for God (Jesus) to decide at the 1st and 2nd judgement. Peace and Gods Blessing to you.