You shall Not Murder your children!!

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Philip James

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. And breath/life only comes after God breathes into a being the breath of life:

Just as you know not how the breath of life fashions the human frame in the mother's womb, So you know not the work of God which he is accomplishing in the universe.
 
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Renniks

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God's only plan for those unborn kids, is that they will never be born!
God wasn't happy with his people when they sacrificed their children to false gods. And I'm sure he's equally angry when we do the same. God doesn't take glory from this slaughter, Satan does.

"But they mingled with the nations And learned their practices, And served their idols, Which became a snare to them. They even sacrificed their sons and their daughters to the demons..." Psalms 106
 
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Helen

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So, Helen, Should I accept the idealogy of this non-Biblical cult, or should I focus solely upon what the Scriptures say?

Well Stan I don't like arguing.
But for myself... and you have to settle things for your self...
...no one can tell you or I what to and what not to believe, we must be led by the Lord and walk in the light given us.

Okay..so listen to this ...
Back in 1987 a friend of our , not living close to us anymore...but way up north... was miscarrying a baby at 26 weeks , the doctors took it C section ..the baby was rushed to our city by helicopter into ICU in the neo-natal ward. Because we were close friends, they asked if I would be a surrogate
mother for him until she recovered from her surgery and well enough to travel by car for 10 hours. So I visited this little scrap of flesh. He was called Luke, he weight just over two pounds. I played a pencil by the side of him and took a photo for them.

Okay, tell me what the difference is between him growing to full term, which you would call "alive" , or growing in an incubator ..so was he dead in the incubator?
He ate, he drank, he cried he peed. He should have been born for another 16 weeks .

I'd sit there for hours , holding his tiny hand through the wall of the incubator , I'd sing..but mostly I told him about his parents , Jesus, and the farm that he would grow up on.

The scrap of dead nothing...is now 6 ft tall, he is engaged to be married.
( the parents were allowed to take him home when he finally weighed 5 pounds. )

So, Stan, somewhere, because you have probably met some obnoxious aggressive people, you have shut out truth.

You must just talk to the lord about it. There is no way at just over two pounds of skin and bone...that that little scrap , was just dead flesh. He was well and truly alive at 26 weeks.
 
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Stan B

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Well Stan I don't like arguing.
But for myself... and you have to settle things for your self...
...no one can tell you or I what to and what not to believe, we must be led by the Lord and walk in the light given us.

Helen, It was never my intent to argue with you, but to learn from you.

While your response contains a touching personal experience, I am really looking for Biblical authority on the matter, because I am yet to encounter a single person who can provide such.

From a Scriptural perspective, I am yet to encounter a single passage of Scripture to support the ideology of the anti-abortion cult.

"Children are a gift from the Lord;
they are a reward from him." Psalm 127:3

Gifts do not come with strings attached, so we are free to do with that gift as we choose.

Sometimes that gift arrives prematurely, and if delivery is delayed in favour of a later date, does that mean that the very same gift God has intended won't still be available until an appropriate body to carry that spirit for it's three-score-and-ten becomes available?
 

Renniks

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Gifts do not come with strings attached, so we are free to do with that gift as we choose.
Then why do we arrest people who murder thier children?
According to your logic, God was the reason his people sacrificed their kids to demons, but God says it never entered his mind.
 

Stan B

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Exactly. And abortion is murder. In fact, a homicide that kills the unborn child is ruled a double homicide.

First of all, abortion addresses a fetus, an incomplete non-living being. One cannot take the life of something that has never been alive.

A fetus is just a bunch of parts being manufactured and assembled. God is very specific as to when a fetus becomes a living being: “The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being” (Genesis 2:7). Adam did not become a living being until then. God breathed into the nostrils of man his spirit, which who a person really is. The body dies and returns to dust, while the spirit lives on forever.
 

Enow

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First of all, abortion addresses a fetus, an incomplete non-living being. One cannot take the life of something that has never been alive.

A fetus is just a bunch of parts being manufactured and assembled. God is very specific as to when a fetus becomes a living being: “The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being” (Genesis 2:7). Adam did not become a living being until then. God breathed into the nostrils of man his spirit, which who a person really is. The body dies and returns to dust, while the spirit lives on forever.

I am not sure why you would apply the scripture about clay and man being formed from clay when the clay has no limbs, no pumping blood and no umbilical cord attachment to someone living so they can live and grow. The clay once formed and given the breath of life starts the circulation as well as the breathing.

Also the scripture knowing someone before they were even formed in the womb testifies to the soul in that womb, regardless of that soul not being born yet.

Fetus is a term used by that false science the evolution theory, which the political arena took to give rights to "fornicators" to murder the unwanted unborn. So the unborn child is more than a fetus and more than a lump of clay. If you read this again with His help... you'd think differently.

Psalm 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. 14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. 15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. 17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

I cannot see how the members of the unborn written in His book when there has not been none of them, cannot infer that the aborted unborn is written in His book. Since children are a reward from the Lord, the fruit of the womb is the reward, then killing that reward before that child is born ought to be an offense to God.

So let us research; is there any scripture that testify to a soul in the womb before birth that one wishes to give his soul while in the womb and even after birth? Yes.

Job 3:11Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?

Did any prophet testify that he existed in the womb that wished He had slew him before he was born? Yes.

Jeremiah 20:17 Because he slew me not from the womb; or that my mother might have been my grave, and her womb to be always great with me. 18 Wherefore came I forth out of the womb to see labour and sorrow, that my days should be consumed with shame?

So there are indication that the soul of the unborn exists and you can't say because the breath of life was not in that unborn child because that unborn child is breathing in another way.

How Do Babies Breathe in the Womb?

"Since a baby developing in the womb lacks the ability to breathe, the mother's body must accomplish the exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide. In essence, the mother breathes for the baby before birth. Just as an expectant mom is eating for two, she is also breathing for two.

The exchange of gases occurs in the placenta, the organ that develops within the uterus during pregnancy to sustain the developing baby. Although the baby and mother have separate bloodstreams, the placenta serves as an interface where gases as well as nutrients can pass between them.

When an expectant mom inhales and takes in oxygen, her circulatory system delivers some of it to the baby's bloodstream through the placenta and umbilical cord. The baby's circulation rids itself of excess carbon dioxide when it passes into the mother's bloodstream via the placenta. The mother's lungs expel carbon dioxide from both the baby's body and her own when she exhales."

So an unborn child is hardly clay, let alone a clinical scientific term called fetus to disregard it as a soul living child not yet born..
 
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Stan B

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So an unborn child is hardly clay, let alone a clinical scientific term called fetus to disregard it as a soul living child not yet born..

Then you are declaring that your god is stupid, but you are smarter.

“Behold, I belong to God like you;
I too have been formed out of the clay."
“The Spirit of God has made me,

Yup! God states in His inspired Word which you reject, that people are made from clay. Job says:

"the breath of the Almighty gives me life." Job 33

"Till I die I will not put away my integrity from me.
For as long as life is in me,
And the breath of God is in my nostrils" Job 27

And of course, in Solomon's time God was still making people from dirt.

God forms man from a pile of dust. It has no life on it's own, it is created merely as a body to contain and convey the spirit of man. Then when the fetus is fully formed, God gives man his spirit, when He breathes into man's the nostrils the breath of life, and he becomes a living being. And then when death comes:

The body is really unimportant. Flesh and blood do not inherit the Kingdom of God, it is just a housing unit to temporarily carry our spirit while we are here on earth. "For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven" 2 Corinthians 5:1-2

"Man's body returns to the dust from whence it came; And the spirit returns to God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7

If he should set his heart to it and gather to himself his spirit and his breath, all flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust. Job 34: 14-15
 

Enow

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Then you are declaring that your god is stupid, but you are smarter.

Really? I'll forgive you for that.

“Behold, I belong to God like you;
I too have been formed out of the clay."
“The Spirit of God has made me,

Sure it is not a simile or a metaphorical reference to being a descendent of Adam? Cause, as it is, I doubt any doctor will say when aborting an unborn child we are going to see clay. How easy would it be to put an end to anti abortion by showing a lump of clay that was aborted?

So I think you better discern again how you are applying that verse to mean.

Yup! God states in His inspired Word which you reject, that people are made from clay. Job says:

"the breath of the Almighty gives me life." Job 33

"Till I die I will not put away my integrity from me.
For as long as life is in me,
And the breath of God is in my nostrils" Job 27

Let's not take that as literal since obviously they are coming out of the mother's womb.

And of course, in Solomon's time God was still making people from dirt.

God forms man from a pile of dust. It has no life on it's own, it is created merely as a body to contain and convey the spirit of man. Then when the fetus is fully formed, God gives man his spirit, when He breathes into man's the nostrils the breath of life, and he becomes a living being. And then when death comes:

Sorry, brother, but I disagree. We are descendent of Adam whom was made from dirt. From the dirt we came and to the dirt we return because of death.. which was not always so since sin had to come into the world by Adam and then death by sin.

Then you have the spirit of the man that God gives to the unborn child. I have shown scripture testifying to the person wishing he had died in the womb or when he had come out of his mother's belly.

Job 3:11Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?

A non living thing cannot claim his mother's womb as his grave, can he?

Jeremiah 20:17 Because he slew me not from the womb; or that my mother might have been my grave, and her womb to be always great with me. 18 Wherefore came I forth out of the womb to see labour and sorrow, that my days should be consumed with shame?

So how can he die in the womb if you say he must be born to breath to be considered alive?

The body is really unimportant. Flesh and blood do not inherit the Kingdom of God, it is just a housing unit to temporarily carry our spirit while we are here on earth. "For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven" 2 Corinthians 5:1-2

"Man's body returns to the dust from whence it came; And the spirit returns to God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7

If he should set his heart to it and gather to himself his spirit and his breath, all flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust. Job 34: 14-15

Ah, but we are talking about the spirit for why I believe the unborn child has a soul even from conception.

Genesis 3:16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Ruth 4:13So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the Lord gave her conception, and she bare a son.

Hosea 9:11As for Ephraim, their glory shall fly away like a bird, from the birth, and from the womb, and from the conception.

Since the Lord brought about conception and has been responsible for why a woman has been barren, who are we to say no to the unborn? It can't be for the reason you say as the only children are brought forth from conception, not a soul less lump of clay. That child is alive because of the mother. God can only know someone before they were formed in the womb if that spirit existed before conception. Radical thought, huh?
 
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Triumph1300

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BreadOfLife

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Whatever the Chinese believe, God has declared in Scripture that one does not become a living being until God breathes into them the breath of life. Do you disagree with God on that issue?
Would you mind showing me where Scripture makes this claim?
That one does NOT become a living being until God breathes into them the breath of life??

This should be interesting . . .
 

Stan B

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Would you mind showing me where Scripture makes this claim?
That one does NOT become a living being until God breathes into them the breath of life??

This should be interesting . . .
God is very specific as to when a fetus becomes a living being: “The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being” (Genesis 2:7). Adam did not become a living being until then. God breathed into the nostrils of man his spirit, which who a person really is. The body dies and returns to dust, while the spirit lives on forever.

Job confirms the Genesis account:

“Behold, I belong to God like you;
I too have been formed out of the clay."
“The Spirit of God has made me,

"the breath of the Almighty gives me life." Job 33

"Till I die I will not put away my integrity from me.
For as long as life is in me, and the breath of God is in my nostrils" Job 27

Thus says the Lord God, “Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life.” So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army." Ezekiel 37:1-14

Should He gather to Himself His spirit and His breath, All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust." Job 34:14-15

"Man's body returns to the dust from whence it came; And the spirit returns to God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7

God forms man from a pile of dust. It has no life on it's own, it is created merely as a body to contain and convey the spirit of man. Then when the fetus is fully formed, God gives man his spirit, when He breathes into man's the nostrils the breath of life, and he becomes a living being. And then when death comes:

The body is really unimportant. Flesh and blood do not inherit the Kingdom of God, it is just a housing unit to temporarily carry our spirit while we are here on earth. "For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven" 2 Corinthians 5:1-2

"For as the body apart from the spirit is dead" James 2:26 )

So until God has breathed into the fetus the breath/spirit of life, God says it is dead!
 

BreadOfLife

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God is very specific as to when a fetus becomes a living being: “The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being” (Genesis 2:7). Adam did not become a living being until then. God breathed into the nostrils of man his spirit, which who a person really is. The body dies and returns to dust, while the spirit lives on forever.
So until God has breathed into the fetus the breath/spirit of life, God says it is dead!
Job confirms the Genesis account:

“Behold, I belong to God like you;
I too have been formed out of the clay."
“The Spirit of God has made me,

"the breath of the Almighty gives me life." Job 33

"Till I die I will not put away my integrity from me.
For as long as life is in me, and the breath of God is in my nostrils" Job 27

Thus says the Lord God, “Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life.” So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army." Ezekiel 37:1-14

Should He gather to Himself His spirit and His breath, All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust." Job 34:14-15

"Man's body returns to the dust from whence it came; And the spirit returns to God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7

God forms man from a pile of dust. It has no life on it's own, it is created merely as a body to contain and convey the spirit of man. Then when the fetus is fully formed, God gives man his spirit, when He breathes into man's the nostrils the breath of life, and he becomes a living being. And then when death comes:

The body is really unimportant. Flesh and blood do not inherit the Kingdom of God, it is just a housing unit to temporarily carry our spirit while we are here on earth. "For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven" 2 Corinthians 5:1-2

"For as the body apart from the spirit is dead" James 2:26 )
The unborn child is "dead" until it comes out of the womb??

Not only are you Biblically-bankrupt and completely devoid of faith - you are totally ignorant of biology. A "dead" fetus in the womb is called a "miscarriage", Einstein.

As for "dead" fetuses in Scripture - how many times must you be proven wrong and publicly-humiliated before you finally accept the truth?
Here we go again . . .

Gen. 25:21-22

And Isaac prayed to the LORD for his wife, because she was barren. And the LORD granted his prayer, and Rebekah his wife conceived.
The children struggled together within her, and she said, “If it is thus, why is this happening to me?” So she went to inquire of the LORD.

Gee, and I thought only LIVE people struggled . . .

Jer. 1:5
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
Gosh - WHO would have thought God would appoint a "DEAD" guy as prophet.
Are you seeing the idiocy of your claims yet?? Let's move on . . .

Psalm 139:13
For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
Gee, I never knew that God creates "DEAD" things. Can you show me another verse that makes this claim??

Job 31:15
Did not he who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same one form us both within our mothers?
Ummmm, do YOU wanna answer Job's question by telling him he was "DEAD"??

Are you REALLY this dense - or do you just like playing the role of the angry old curmudgeon??
 
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