Rapture is not in the Bible

[Stranger]

I have answered and explained, and you dis' me and tell me I have not answered. I will not answer you...again.

No, concerning your point #5, you didn't answer my question. Was Jesus Christ really taken up in a cloud as (Acts 1:9) says. And will he really return in like manner as (Acts 1:11) says?

Stranger

 

[ScottA]

Your use of sky in your point #3, is wrong because Christ descended from Heaven. Trying to make descend not mean descend because the kingdom of God is within you is also wrong. Just like 'rose again' means Jesus 'rose again', so when it says He shall descend from Heaven, He shall descend from Heaven. In other words your allegorical interpretation takes away from what is being said.

You did say 'caught up' doesn't mean 'caught up' in your post #14. Pay attention. You said we dont go any where. But (1Thess. 4:17) is clear we do go somewhere..in the clouds, in the air. That means going up. You cannot put your own definition to words in the Bible.

Stranger

You are attempting to hold to a literal translation...as if the "Lamb" of God were also a literal young sheep. And I have attempted to show you the greater parables. But if you do not want to go, then stay.

 

[ScottA]

Actually I do understand what you're saying. Which is why I said what I did. In your point #2 you didn't even mention the resurrection. You just put some symbolic interpretation to it.

And just as 'rose again' really means 'rose again' so 'descend from Heaven' really means 'descend from Heaven.

Stranger

You are attempting to hold to a literal translation...as if the "Lamb" of God were also a literal young sheep. And I have attempted to show you the greater parables. But if you do not want to go, then stay.

 

[ScottA]

There is no parable to explain concerning your point #4.

In your mind you think you have done better than quote the Scriptures. But you havent. As I said, you are taking away from Scripture, not contributing to any understanding.

Stranger

Mark 4:11
And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables,

Why do you insist on staying "outside" against the Word?

 

[ScottA]

No, concerning your point #5, you didn't answer my question. Was Jesus Christ really taken up in a cloud as (Acts 1:9) says. And will he really return in like manner as (Acts 1:11) says?

Stranger

Not only did I answer you, I answered you twice:

"He was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight" would not mean "up" in geography or altitude, but in status. Remember, He said, "I go to the Father" whom is "greater" (higher) "than I." But I submit, that what is manifest in the world is a mere shadow (a parable) of what is on high. In essence, God has drawn us a picture of we could not see - but it is what is unseen that is true in full, and what we see in the world, is "only in part."

No, I am not saying that anything that is written is not true, just not understood in the proper perspective. In the proper perspective, Christ "went" in the way that we should know is true...if we receive that "God is spirit." He went to the Father...of course He went "in spirit", that is the kingdom in which He is King (not of this world). So, from a worldly perspective He went as the world sees, but from a heavenly/godly perspective the world has not perceived what it cannot see, which is spirit. But in the words of the angel of God, "like manner", is to mean, "like" God.

Will you now deny it a third time?

 

[Stranger]

You are attempting to hold to a literal translation...as if the "Lamb" of God were also a literal young sheep. And I have attempted to show you the greater parables. But if you do not want to go, then stay.

Indeed I do hold to a literal translation. No, literal translation allows for the use of metahphors, similies, symbols etc. , when used. Not everything in Scripture is a parable, as you want to treat it. And (1Thess. 4:13-17) is not a parable. As I said, you, in denying that Christ descends from heaven, and that we are caught up to meet him in the air, are taking away from the truth, not adding to it.

If 'rose again' in (1Thess. 4:14) means resurrection which it does, then it is a literal translation. Which means that 'descend from heaven' should also be taken literally. Which means 'caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air' should be taken literally. There is no reason to make these say anything but what they say. Except you just don't want to believe it.

First of, all concerning your point #4, it is as I said, there is no parable in your point #4. (Mark 10:31) is not a parable. And trying to go back to (Mark 4:11) which is speaking of the 'mystery form of the kingdom' which was given in parables, does not make (10:31) a parable. Neither does it give you a license to interpret the rest of Scripture just any old way you want to.

No, you never answered my question. Was Jesus really taken up in a cloud as (Acts 1:9) says. And will He really return in like manner as (Acts 1:11) says? I understand that you are giving some sort of pseudo spiritual interpretation to these verses. But what I am asking you, is did Jesus really go up as these verses say? And will He really return as these verses say?

In other words, does your interpretation mean these did not happen and will not happen literally?

Stranger

 

[ScottA]

Not everything in Scripture is a parable, as you want to treat it.

Again:

Mark 4:11
And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables,

...You are wrong.

Shall we stop now, or would you like to admit that you are wrong and look again at the parables we have been discussing?

 

[Stranger]

Again:

Mark 4:11
And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables,

...You are wrong.

Shall we stop now, or would you like to admit that you are wrong and look again at the parables we have been discussing?

(Mark 4:11) "And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables" See? All these things speak to the parables of the mystery form of the kingdom. Not to everything Christ said. And not to the rest of the Bible. And not to (1Thess. 4:13-17).

Again, answer my questions that you never answered concerning (Acts 1:9, 1:11).

Stranger

 

[ScottA]

Was Jesus really taken up in a cloud as (Acts 1:9) says. And will He really return in like manner as (Acts 1:11) says? I understand that you are giving some sort of pseudo spiritual interpretation to these verses. But what I am asking you, is did Jesus really go up as these verses say? And will He really return as these verses say?

In other words, does your interpretation mean these did not happen and will not happen literally?

For the third time:

You say "literal" and "pseudo spiritual", "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him."

"Literally" is wrong. What those who witnessed Christ's ascension saw was "real" only as a manifestation (an image) of the greater truth on high (not meaning "up", but greater).

So, then, it is not what those who witnessed saw and recorded that is of greatest value ("higher" value), but what the angels of the Lord said, that being "like manner." But if we look at that statement for what was "seen" and not what was "unseen", then we have not heard in spirit. From God's heavenly and spiritual side of the equation, Christ was not "taken up" in the flesh, but in the spirit: "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." This is the "like manner" of which they [being of God] spoke.

Therefore, He went and comes again, in the spirit.

 

[Stranger]

For the third time:

You say "literal" and "pseudo spiritual", "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him."

"Literally" is wrong. What those who witnessed Christ's ascension saw was "real" only as a manifestation (an image) of the greater truth on high (not meaning "up", but greater).

So, then, it is not what those who witnessed saw and recorded that is of greatest value ("higher" value), but what the angels of the Lord said, that being "like manner." But if we look at that statement for what was "seen" and not what was "unseen", then we have not heard in spirit. From God's heavenly and spiritual side of the equation, Christ was not "taken up" in the flesh, but in the spirit: "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." This is the "like manner" of which they [being of God] spoke.

Therefore, He went and comes again, in the spirit.

And you're a liar.

(Heb. 10:5) "...Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me".

(John 20:17) "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father"

(John 20:27) "Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believeing."

Jesus Christ was given a human body. That body was resurrected. Jesus would not allow Mary to touch Him until He asenceded. Then once He had returned from that ascension, He allowed Thomas to touch his hands and side. A body that was pierced. A body that was resurrected. A body that went to be with the Father and then returned.

And it was this same Jesus, in Body and Spirit, that went up in (Acts 1:9) and who shall return in (Acts 1:11).

Your allegorical and spiritual interpretation has made you a fool.

Stranger

 

[ScottA]

And you're a liar.

(Heb. 10:5) "...Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me".

(John 20:17) "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father"

(John 20:27) "Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believeing."

Jesus Christ was given a human body. That body was resurrected. Jesus would not allow Mary to touch Him until He asenceded. Then once He had returned from that ascension, He allowed Thomas to touch his hands and side. A body that was pierced. A body that was resurrected. A body that went to be with the Father and then returned.

And it was this same Jesus, in Body and Spirit, that went up in (Acts 1:9) and who shall return in (Acts 1:11).

Your allegorical and spiritual interpretation has made you a fool.

Stranger

You call names.
You do not discern the scriptures spiritually according to the word.
You hold to the written word like a Pharisee.
You don't know what you are talking about.
You won't listen.

We're done.

 

[keras]

When two good Christians disagree on something, there shouldn't be any abuse or any thinking that people who have a different belief of what God will do for His people, will be consigned to hell.
What I see here is two people who both have a flawed interpretation of prophecy. My suggestion to you both is to let it go and when things get bad, just do what Joel 2:32 and Acts 2:21 advise: Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved.

 

[Stranger]

When two good Christians disagree on something, there shouldn't be any abuse or any thinking that people who have a different belief of what God will do for His people, will be consigned to hell.
What I see here is two people who both have a flawed interpretation of prophecy. My suggestion to you both is to let it go and when things get bad, just do what Joel 2:32 and Acts 2:21 advise: Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved.

I claim to be Christian. I make no claim to being good.

And, no one said anything about 'hell' till you entered.

And, neither do I care for someone entering in a high and mighty fashion, portraying themselves as some 'peacemaker' as you do. Save your words for another. That is my suggestion to you.

The Word of God is important. And correct interpretation of it is equally important. And it is worthy of being called out.

Stranger

 

[keras]

I claim to be Christian. I make no claim to being good.

Something you should work on perhaps?

And, no one said anything about 'hell' till you entered.

Sorry, It was someone else that said I would go to hell because I refuted the rapture theory.

With the Prophetic Word, there are basic things that must be understood before jumping to conclusions.
First is that we Christians are the Israel of God.
We have tasks to do here on earth.
God will judge us on our performance, at the GWT Judgement. Rev 20:11-15
If we keep our faith, we will achieve immortality.

 

[n2thelight]

n2thelight

Why do you believe (1Thess. 4:13-18) speaks to the Second Coming?

Stranger

It's in his 2nd letter

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

Paul is now getting to the purpose for this second letter. Paul reminded them of his first letter to them, of Christ returning and our gathering back to Him. Because of the misunderstanding that could be drawn from the first letter, he writes the following.

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Jesus Christ is not gathering anyone to Him, nor is He coming here to earth, except there be a falling away first. The word for "falling away", in the Greek is "apostasy". Jesus told us in His revelation to John, in Revelation 9:11, that "Apollyon" is one of Satan's names, and this name is derived from the word apostasy.

The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God. Satan's judgment day has come already back in the first earth age, and he will have no part in the Great White Throne judgment, or any other judgment yet to come. He has already been judged, and sentence by God to death "perdition" [Ezekiel 28 covers this judgment].

What did Paul say again?

Jesus Christ is coming back to this earth, but the saints of Christ will not be gathered to Him until the "son of perdition" [Satan] be revealed first.

 

[Stranger]

Something you should work on perhaps?

Sorry, It was someone else that said I would go to hell because I refuted the rapture theory.

With the Prophetic Word, there are basic things that must be understood before jumping to conclusions.
First is that we Christians are the Israel of God.
We have tasks to do here on earth.
God will judge us on our performance, at the GWT Judgement. Rev 20:11-15
If we keep our faith, we will achieve immortality.

Well, you disagreed with the rapture. I wouldn't say you refuted it. There are plenty of believers who believe It.

No, those are things one must believe in order to be in agreement with you...to allow your theology to work. To disagree with you doesn't mean one jumps to conclusions.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

It's in his 2nd letter

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

Paul is now getting to the purpose for this second letter. Paul reminded them of his first letter to them, of Christ returning and our gathering back to Him. Because of the misunderstanding that could be drawn from the first letter, he writes the following.

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Jesus Christ is not gathering anyone to Him, nor is He coming here to earth, except there be a falling away first. The word for "falling away", in the Greek is "apostasy". Jesus told us in His revelation to John, in Revelation 9:11, that "Apollyon" is one of Satan's names, and this name is derived from the word apostasy.

The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God. Satan's judgment day has come already back in the first earth age, and he will have no part in the Great White Throne judgment, or any other judgment yet to come. He has already been judged, and sentence by God to death "perdition" [Ezekiel 28 covers this judgment].

What did Paul say again?

Jesus Christ is coming back to this earth, but the saints of Christ will not be gathered to Him until the "son of perdition" [Satan] be revealed first.

Well, you skipped (2 Thess.2:2). Once you read that in you will see that the phrase "for that day shall not come" in (2:3) refers not to the 'gathering' in (2:1), but to the 'day of Christ' which is the day of the Lord.

(2 Thess. 2:2-3) "...be not soon shaken in mind...that the day of Christ is at hand...for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first...."

So, the falling away, or the man of sin being revealed, is not necessary for Christ to come and gather out His people at the rapture.

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

The Word of God is important.

i pray you find It. It requires no interpretation.

 

[n2thelight]

Well, you skipped (2 Thess.2:2). Once you read that in you will see that the phrase "for that day shall not come" in (2:3) refers not to the 'gathering' in (2:1), but to the 'day of Christ' which is the day of the Lord.

(2 Thess. 2:2-3) "...be not soon shaken in mind...that the day of Christ is at hand...for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first...."

So, the falling away, or the man of sin being revealed, is not necessary for Christ to come and gather out His people at the rapture.

Stranger

Can't understand how you can say that,when that's exactly what Paul wrote

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

What day shall not come?The day we gather to Christ,and he just told you two of the things that not only will,but must happen first,so Im not understanding your conclusion.

 

[Stranger]

Can't understand how you can say that,when that's exactly what Paul wrote

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

What day shall not come?The day we gather to Christ,and he just told you two of the things that not only will,but must happen first,so Im not understanding your conclusion.

I can say that because I didn't jump from (2 Thess. 2:1) to (2 Thess. 2:3). I included (2 Thess. 2:2).

(2 Thess. 2:1-3) " Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Stranger