Preterism's Claim Of 70AD Fulfillment Is Silenced In One Verse, Luke 21:35

Randy Kluth · Sep 27, 2021

Truther said:
God's Law is holy.
That is the judge.

Show me where a single verse here is saying the law is past tense...

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

....notice that this is written decades after the cross.

You don't seem to understand that what NT authors were saying about the Law were arguments from precedent, and were rhetorical arguments--not claims that the Law still exists as a covenant! It's like saying that when God judged Israel for disobeying the Law that we should obey God today to avoid judgment. It doesn't mean we're under the same Law. It only means that in principle, if we fail to obey God in anything, we will be judged!

God's Law, which you say is "holy" and "is the judge" is no longer in effect. That is said throughout the NT Scriptures! You mentioned 2 Cor 3 yourself! That's one place where not only the 10 Commandments are relegated to the past, but the entire Law is relegated to the past as well.

2 Cor 3. 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

Don't you understand this? Don't you understand that Paul was calling the Law "transitory?" It brought condemnation despite all of the means it used to keep Israel in relationship with God because it could not provide lasting atonement. It could only bring about a temporary reprieve!

So Paul is here arguing that what we have now is not the Law and its covenant, but rather, something the glory of which lasts forever, bringing us eternal life through Christ.

Christ lasts forever. Sinners could not achieve the perfection necessary to obtain this. We obtain eternal life by casting our lot with Christ, choosing to live only by his Spirit, and not by our own efforts.

Randy Kluth · Sep 27, 2021

Truther said:
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

This should be your new book title..."The death of sin".

Scriptures must be understood in context, or they are misrepresented and misunderstood. When Paul argued that the Law convicted people of Sin, he was stating that Israel, who were under the Law, were convicted by it of Sin.

That is, despite all of the remedies the Law provided in dealing with sin none of it excised the reality that sin was still in the lives of God's People. They remained ultimately under condemnation, and could not be restored to God forever by the Law itself.

The Law, therefore, condemned even God's People of sin, making them ineligible for eternal life. Just as Adam and Eve had to die for a single sin, so all men, saints or not, have to die and are ineligible for eternal life unless something beyond the Law saves them, namely Christ.

Marty fox · Sep 27, 2021

Truth7t7 said:
Marty why do you repeat the falsehood, you have been clearly shown that the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom at the death of Jesus Christ, God vacated the Jerusalem temple in 33AD, as you openly disregard this fact "Why"?

Your claim that God had further business with the temple of man's stones decades later is a Preterist fairy tale

It's amazing how far one will go to preserve man made doctrine, same as dispensationalism in a pre-trib rapture

If it dosent fit your belief, remove it through symbolic allegory

Mark 15:37-38KJV
37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

Did you even read my answer?

Truth7t7 · Sep 27, 2021

Randy Kluth said:
Yes, but not even the Ten Commandments "lives." It is a subset of the Law as a whole. As such, it goes out the door along with the whole covenant. And its moral precepts are repackaged in the covenant of Christ.

If we keep the 10 Commandments as part of the Law, then we are obligated to keep the whole Law. But if we keep the 10 Commandments apart from the covenant of Law, then our obligation isn't to the Law, but to God and our conscience.

The 10 Commandments have value with respect to eternal life if we keep them in connection with our commitment to Christ. Unless we turn our whole lives over to Christ, keeping the 10 Commandments will never yield eternal life.

Morality was never conditioned upon it being included in the Law. Morality existed before the Law, and it exists after the Law. It was God's Law from the moment God created Man in His own image and likeness. He expected us to live like Him, and to love like Him.

We didn't need the 10 Commandments to tell us that through the Law of Moses. It is written on all our hearts, and can be discerned in our conscience. But the Law clarifies what God is like for those hard of hearing, which of course all of us are!

I just would remind you that the 10 Commandments includes the law to observe the Sabbath Day. That requirement is definitely not a part of the New Covenant of Christ.

And as you can tell, the 10 Commandments were focused upon ancient Israel. Why else would "images," or "idols," be prohibited? Why else would the Sabbath be required? Why else would coveting property in the context of farm animals, etc. be in focus?

Those moral requirements are still valid today in our modern environment. But those laws were obviously focused upon an ancient culture that followed the OT system. Most of us aren't Israel. And none of us are obligated to any part of the Law as a covenant.

I disagree, Jesus Christ taught the 10 commandments and enforced them

Will you be great or least in the Kingdom?

Matthew 5:19KJV
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Truth7t7 · Sep 27, 2021

Truther said:
Since you teach that the Law ended, including 'thou shalt not kill", then they will be saved, right?

According to Paul, sin is governed by the Law, and you removed it's governor-ship of the law.

You better rethink your foundation. I had to.

At no time have I claimed or stated the 10 commandments have been removed as you claim

Matthew 5:19KJV
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Truth7t7 · Sep 27, 2021

Marty fox said:
Did you even read my answer?

Of course I read your response, and it was as valid as the teaching of a pre-trib rapture

You build your whole Preterist eschatology around the 70AD destruction of the Jerusalem temple, and react as if God still had attachment to a building of stones "Wrong"

God vacated the earthly Jerusalem temple in 33AD at the death of Jesus Christ

Your response that Jews still looked at the temple in 70AD has absolutely nothing to do with Gods view, it was nothing more than a dead rock building, as God removed his glory in 33AD

Marty you continue to beat the preterist drum, teachings that are riddled with error

The Preterist Motto, if it dont fit 70AD fulfillment, remove it through symbolic allegory

Truth7t7 · Sep 27, 2021

Truther said:
Paul taught that the 10 commandments were ended for the saints per 2 Cor 3.

You should not parrot others' teachings without researching what they say.

At no time have the 10 commandments been revoked, removed, or ended

Matthew 5:19KJV
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Marty fox · Sep 27, 2021

Truth7t7 said:
Of course I read your response, and it was as valid as the teaching of a pre-trib rapture

You build your whole Preterist eschatology around the 70AD destruction of the Jerusalem temple, and react as if God still had attachment to a building of stones "Wrong"

God vacated the earthly Jerusalem temple in 33AD at the death of Jesus Christ

Your response that Jews still looked at the temple in 70AD has absolutely nothing to do with Gods view, it was nothing more than a dead rock building, as God removed his glory in 33AD

Marty you continue to beat the preterist drum, teachings that are riddled with error

The Preterist Motto, if it dont fit 70AD fulfillment, remove it through symbolic allegory

If thats what you think i'm saying then you didn't read my answer

Truth7t7 · Sep 27, 2021

Marty fox said:
If thats what you think i'm saying then you didn't read my answer

By all means please post your answer again, let's cut out the guess work

Marty you run the same playbook, in comments on something posted pages back

Marty fox · Sep 27, 2021

Truth7t7 said:
By all means please post your answer again, let's cut out the guess work

Marty you run the same playbook, in comments on something posted pages back

I said that I agreed with you but the Jews didn't realize it so they kept the sin offering sacrifices and that's why the temple was destroyed

Randy Kluth · Sep 27, 2021

Truth7t7 said:
I disagree, Jesus Christ taught the 10 commandments and enforced them

Will you be great or least in the Kingdom?

Matthew 5:19KJV
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Well, that response informs me as to why you are confused. Jesus taught the Law *while it was still in effect!* Jesus knew that soon, the Law would be shattered, and Israel would be exiled, which is what happens when the Law is broken.

So what he said *before the Law failed* applied up until it did fail. Once the veil was rent, that covenant wasn't worth the paper it was written on (or whatever).

Truth7t7 · Sep 27, 2021

Randy Kluth said:
Well, that response informs me as to why you are confused. Jesus taught the Law *while it was still in effect!* Jesus knew that soon, the Law would be shattered, and Israel would be exiled, which is what happens when the Law is broken.

So what he said *before the Law failed* applied up until it did fail. Once the veil was rent, that covenant wasn't worth the paper it was written on (or whatever).

Once again, the 10 commandments are in effect today, and haven't been removed or replaced

Truther · Sep 27, 2021

Randy Kluth said:
You don't seem to understand that what NT authors were saying about the Law were arguments from precedent, and were rhetorical arguments--not claims that the Law still exists as a covenant! It's like saying that when God judged Israel for disobeying the Law that we should obey God today to avoid judgment. It doesn't mean we're under the same Law. It only means that in principle, if we fail to obey God in anything, we will be judged!

God's Law, which you say is "holy" and "is the judge" is no longer in effect. That is said throughout the NT Scriptures! You mentioned 2 Cor 3 yourself! That's one place where not only the 10 Commandments are relegated to the past, but the entire Law is relegated to the past as well.

2 Cor 3. 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

Don't you understand this? Don't you understand that Paul was calling the Law "transitory?" It brought condemnation despite all of the means it used to keep Israel in relationship with God because it could not provide lasting atonement. It could only bring about a temporary reprieve!

So Paul is here arguing that what we have now is not the Law and its covenant, but rather, something the glory of which lasts forever, bringing us eternal life through Christ.

Christ lasts forever. Sinners could not achieve the perfection necessary to obtain this. We obtain eternal life by casting our lot with Christ, choosing to live only by his Spirit, and not by our own efforts.

The New Testament authors unanimously taught that the law was still in effect and that only the Spirit led Saints were not governed by the law. Not a single verse declares sinners free from the law. This is only what modern people teach today. Somebody taught this hand me down idea which brings mass confusion to everyone involved. It’s origins are likely Darby or one of his contemporaries. This has not been thought through.

Truth7t7 · Sep 27, 2021

Marty fox said:
I said that I agreed with you but the Jews didn't realize it so they kept the sin offering sacrifices and that's why the temple was destroyed

Ok, we will disagree, God vacated the temple in 33AD, and it was nothing more than a pile of man made stones

Claiming God had interest because unsaved Jews were sacrificing animal, has no more of Gods interest in Jews still keeping dietary laws in not eating pork for one

Truther · Sep 27, 2021

Truth7t7 said:
At no time have I claimed or stated the 10 commandments have been removed as you claim

Matthew 5:19KJV
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Well, it’s about time you learn. The 10 Commandments have been done away. But only for the Saints. The 10 Commandments are still governing those that have not been born again of the watering of the Spirit.

Truther · Sep 27, 2021

Randy Kluth said:
Scriptures must be understood in context, or they are misrepresented and misunderstood. When Paul argued that the Law convicted people of Sin, he was stating that Israel, who were under the Law, were convicted by it of Sin.

That is, despite all of the remedies the Law provided in dealing with sin none of it excised the reality that sin was still in the lives of God's People. They remained ultimately under condemnation, and could not be restored to God forever by the Law itself.

The Law, therefore, condemned even God's People of sin, making them ineligible for eternal life. Just as Adam and Eve had to die for a single sin, so all men, saints or not, have to die and are ineligible for eternal life unless something beyond the Law saves them, namely Christ.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Question… Is the law still in effect per the verse?

Are sinners without the law?

Is Joe Biden under the law or grace?

Are sinners in a lawless limbo since they are under neither Law nor Grace? What is the name of this limbo?

Marty fox · Sep 27, 2021

Truth7t7 said:
Ok, we will disagree, God vacated the temple in 33AD, and it was nothing more than a pile of man made stones

Claiming God had interest because unsaved Jews were sacrificing animal, has no more of Gods interest in Jews still keeping dietary laws in not eating pork for one

I think that I realize why you disagree with so many people you don't read what they say. I said that I agreed with you God didn't have an interest.

The Jews still did think that God had an interest and still kept doing the sin sacrifices which was an abomination to God so He had the temple destroyed

Truth7t7 · Sep 27, 2021

Truther said:
Well, it’s about time you learn. The 10 Commandments have been done away. But only for the Saints. The 10 Commandments are still governing those that have not been born again of the watering of the Spirit.

I disagree, Jesus Christ taught the 10 commandments and enforced them

Will you be great or least in the Kingdom?

Matthew 19:17-19KJV
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 5:19KJV
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Randy Kluth · Sep 27, 2021

Truth7t7 said:
Once again, the 10 commandments are in effect today, and haven't been removed or replaced

That's really weak, brother, and not worthy of discussing. Asserting things as "fact" simply because *you say so* isn't a discussion, nor a debate. It isn't really worthy any more than letting me know what you're going to believe "no matter what."

Truth7t7 · Sep 27, 2021

Marty fox said:
The Jews still did think that God had an interest and still kept doing the sin sacrifices which was an abomination to God so He had the temple destroyed

God had no interest in ethnic Jews or their temple practices in 70AD as you suggest

Animal sacrifice is no more evil than Jews adhering and practicing the evil Talmud or Kabbalah, while maintaining the spirit of Antichrist

You place it as an issue, to lay a false foundation in 70AD fulfillment in a temple destruction, and the claim of a judgement upon Jerusalem not seen in scripture

The entire chapter of Matthew 24 is dedicated to the future literal second coming, and this didnt take place in 70AD as a symbolic Judgement upon Jerusalem as Preterist teach

Preterism's Claim Of 70AD Fulfillment Is Silenced In One Verse, Luke 21:35

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