The Pre-Trib Rapture

Fig tree blosoms before summer. Jesus used summer as the time of His harvest.

Jesus commanded His faithful to learn the parable of the fig tree.

In Jeremiah 24, God showed Jeremiah two baskets of figs in a vision, one basket of good edible figs, and the other basket of 'evil'... figs. God compared the good basket of figs to Judah, and promised He would no more remove them from the land.

The last time the Jews were scattered from the holy land was by the Romans in 70 A.D., what the Jews call the Diaspora. Only in 1948 did they become a nation again, and have not been removed from the holy lands again. This represents the leaves showing up on the fig tree, pointing out how summer is near per Christ's parable.

And then per the parable, Lord Jesus said that the generation that sees "all these things", shall not pass until all "these things" are fulfilled (Matthew 24:33-34). The things Jesus was giving there are the Signs of the very end of this world leading up to His future return. So think a little for yourselves brethren, the generation that sees 'all' those Signs will be the generation that will literally 'see' Christ's return.

marks said:

That's an interesting comparison, since God also limited the destruction so "some flesh" would survive, but not by limiting the destructive power of the flood, instead by insulating 8 persons from it's power.

Perhaps a relevant question would be to ask, when Jesus said, "and then the end shall come", when is that?

Much love!

Click to expand...

In my view, "the end" takes place when Israel is securely back in the land, with Jesus Christ sitting on the throne ruling over both Israel and the nations.

ewq1938 said:

You said, "What you call the "Great Tribulation", I would call "The Day of the Lord." "

The Great Tribulation is not the day of the Lord.

Click to expand...

I know. I agree with you. Sorry about the confusion. I maintain that Christians have mislabeled the Day of the Lord, inadvertently calling it "The Great Tribulation," which is where much of the pre, mid, post tribulation confusion arises.

In my view, The Day of the Lord manifests as series of events all leading up to the Second Coming of Christ at the climax. The Rapture takes place right at the end of the DOL just before the Lord Returns to earth to do battle with the antichrist. In this case I would classified as "post-DOL."

Many Christians are taught that the seals and trumpets are directed at the world at large. By contrast, I believe the seals and trumpets are directed at the Land of Israel. The Seals and Trumpets are not the GT. Rather the Seals and Trumpets are the DOL.

ewq1938 said:

Intensity because he said it was going to be shorter than originally planned. He said no flesh would survive a long tribulation.

Click to expand...

I was thinking the opposite. I was thinking "great" = "a really long period of time."

One day I was thinking about what Jesus said about the GT, "such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will." I immediately thought about Noah's flood and the fact that the flood left only eight survivors. If I were sitting in the back of the class I would raise my hand and ask Jesus, "how can anything be worse than Noah's flood?"

So I continued to ponder Jesus' statement about the GT and how such a thing had not occurred since the beginning of the world. I turned my attention to his prediction that the Jews would once again be taken into exile. During the time of Jeremiah, the exiles were in Babylon for 70 years. And until 1948, the exiles were spread out around the world for almost 1900 years. By comparison with the Babylonian exile, the World Wide exile was much greater in duration and toward the end, much greater in intensity.

So, I guess, both the intensity and the duration are "great", but I think Jesus was comparing it with the Babylonian exile, which was less intense and shorter in duration.

comments?

marks said:

You really are asking the right question here.

How indeed is this seeming "end of tribulation" occurrance happening way up here at the beginning?

This is to encourage that "ek" "apo" study . . .



Much love!

Click to expand...

I have my own opinion on it that I haven’t posted. I was more asking others for their reasons.

marks said:

A brief outline . . .

7 Seals are opened.
The 70th week begins.
7 Trumpets are sounded.
Two witnesses prophesy.
144,000 Jews go town to town through Israel.

Satan is cast from heaven.
The man of sin sits in the temple.
The beast demands worship.
144,000 are translated into heaven.
The Jews flee to the wilderness.
The witnesses are killed, then rise and ascend.

The greatest tribulation begins.
The 7 bowls are poured out.
Babylon is remembered.
The armies of earth are gathered.

Jesus returns.
The Jews are regathered to Israel.
The beast is tossed into the lake of fire, his armies destroyed.
Jesus takes His throne.
The gentiles are gathered and judged.
The OT saints are raised, and the martyrs are raised.
The wedding feast begins.
The 12 Apostles judge the 12 tribes of Israel.
David is king over them.
Jesus is King of Kings, ruling from Jerusalem.

After 1000 years, Satan deceives the nations of the earth, which are then destroyed.
Heaven and earth flee.
The dead are judged.

"Behold, I make all things new!"

Much love!

Click to expand...

That reads to me, as a very Pre-TB-esk type view. Not every detail, but much of it. But, I understand you are portraying it how you may view it and I do appreciate your break down.

There is much in there that I no longer believe; I mean how it’s chronology is put together. Sadly, forums are a terrible place for deep discussions because the prospect of many questions/answers gets lost in threads and walls of text. I really wish there was a place one could drive to and meet others to discuss in person. Sometimes, that’s how I wish Bible study would be. Oh well

Timtofly said:

You left out the fig tree blooming after the Second Coming.

If you use Revelation as a guide then Matthew 24 is in reverse order. If you use the OD as a guide, then people jumble up Revelation, and "fix it", to fit their variety of eschatology.

According to Revelation the 42 months of the AoD is last: Revelation 13,15-19.

Before the 7th Trumpet, are 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders per Revelation 8-11. Revelation 10-12 cover the 7th Trumpet. But the 7th Trumpet is interrupted by Revelation 13. To me the Trumpet and Thunder soundings are the final harvest when Christ the Prince and His angels are here per Matthew 13, Matthew 24:29-31, Paul mentioned a Trumpet and archangel, and then Revelation 6 and the 6th Seal. So the Second Coming has to happen first, so this harvest works, even prior to Satan's "turn" in the vineyard. Because the blooming of the fig tree signified the return of Israel as a nation and the winding down of the Gospel being spread by the church.

The church is removed because they have entered into their rest. The time for the final harvest is at hand. No one can know when the Second Coming will happen. The time of the Seals is extended for the salvation opportunity for all flesh. The time of the Trumpets and Thunders keeps getting shorter.

Click to expand...

Im sorry, but I do not believe Physical Israel is a fig tree that was to bloom in 1948. There’s plenty of reasons for this but I’ll just say this one.

If the resurrection of the dead happens by 2028 (80 years) I’ll happily say I was mistaken. But if the world goes on past 2028, will everyone else admit they were wrong and give up on that idea?

No Pre-TB said:

I'm having a hard time understand some of the debates on the great tribulation. First off, Christ said in Matthew 24:21,

21For then shall be great tribulation

And he spoke this in reference to when they would see the abomination of desolation. So, the AoD, according to Christ, precedes the great tribulation.

Click to expand...

The Matthew 24:15-21 section of Scripture is meant to be together about the same timing, the actual time of "great tribulation". We know this because of the type... of event Jesus gave according to His Signs for the end. He quoted from the Book of Daniel about the AOD event, which is about what? It's about the Antichrist placing an idol abomination in a standing temple in Jerusalem and demanding all to worship it. This is why Matthew 24:21 refers that time to be a time that has never been the likes on earth before, nor ever will be again. Daniel 12:1 has a parallel phrase on that point also, and then a latter phrase about those who's names are written in the book then being delivered, thus pointing to the "great tribulation" event.

What Jesus showed then...

Matthew 24:4-14 is the time He called "the beginning of sorrows". This is not the "great tribulation" time. It is a time prior to the "great tribulation". Many preachers have it wrong trying to preach all out death and chaos for the actual "tribulation time". What Lord Jesus taught there is that as long as we hear of wars and rumors of wars, don't be troubled, because the 'end' is not yet. The actual 'end' is about the time of "great tribulation", and begins with the placing of the AOD. The coming false Messiah in Jerusalem setting up that idol abomination is what sets it off.

Do you remember at the end of Revelation 13 about the "image of the beast", that all those who refuse to bow to it are to be killed? That's what that "great tribulation" time will be about, for us Christ's Church. But for the wicked and deceived who will worship that fake-Christ, and bow to that image of the beast, for them it will be a time of peace and safety (per 1 Thessalonians 5).

Right with that Matthew 24:21 warning that 'then' there will be "great tribulation", Jesus then gives His warning about the coming of the false-Messiah that will work great signs and wonders that if possible, would deceive even His very elect. That is what the Matthew 24:23-26 section is about, and it is part of that "great tribulation" timing about the coming fake-Christ. (The KJV phrase "false Christs" is actually singular per the context of those 23-26 verses. Dr. James Strong translated "false Christs" from the Greek to 'a spurious Messiah', and I agree with him, per the context there.)

Only after those events does Lord Jesus begin giving us the Sign of His 2nd coming and gathering of His Church, per the Matthew 24:29-31 verse section. That is actually the last Sign He gave there, which parallels the Seals of Revelation 6. The parable of the fig tree is given in order to know the ballpark timing of all those Signs He gave there, i.e., the final generation that will see His return.

CadyandZoe said:

The Rapture takes place right at the end of the DOL just before the Lord Returns to earth to do battle with the antichrist. In this case I would classified as "post-DOL."

Click to expand...

The DOL corresponds to the Great Tribulation. So how could that even be possible since all the saints and angels come with Christ FROM HEAVEN when He descends to earth for the battle of Armageddon? How do people come up with such absurd ideas?

Before Christ descends to earth with His saints and angels (metaphorically called "clouds" in Rev 1:7 and other verses) we see the Marriage of the Lamb in Heaven (Rev 19). Since the Bride of Christ is the Church, the Church is in Heaven BEFORE the Marriage. And in order for that to be possible, the Church must already have been raptured to Heaven much earlier (since there is a judgment of the works of Christians prior to that at the Judgment Seat of Christ). And since there is no connection of the Rapture to any Tribulation period (in any passage referring to the Rapture) the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is what is revealed in Scripture.

CadyandZoe said:

I know. I agree with you. Sorry about the confusion. I maintain that Christians have mislabeled the Day of the Lord, inadvertently calling it "The Great Tribulation," which is where much of the pre, mid, post tribulation confusion arises.

In my view, The Day of the Lord manifests as series of events all leading up to the Second Coming of Christ at the climax. The Rapture takes place right at the end of the DOL just before the Lord Returns to earth to do battle with the antichrist. In this case I would classified as "post-DOL."

Many Christians are taught that the seals and trumpets are directed at the world at large. By contrast, I believe the seals and trumpets are directed at the Land of Israel. The Seals and Trumpets are not the GT. Rather the Seals and Trumpets are the DOL.

Click to expand...

The seals tell us of future events including some Great Tribulation events and second coming etc. I believe the 6th trump is when the Great Tribulation takes place because it ends with the two prophets rising into heaven and an earthquake then the 7th trump sounds the same day and that is the official end of the Great Tribulation since all surviving Christians are made immortal and moved to the clouds, thus no tribulation against Christians can ever happen again.

The day of the Lord is not related to any part of the Great Tribulation, the seals or trumps. There are many days of the lord in scripture. Two in the NT are references to the second coming, and one much later when it is time for the New Heaven and new Earth which happens after the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ).

CadyandZoe said:

I was thinking the opposite. I was thinking "great" = "a really long period of time."

Click to expand...

That's impossible according to Christ:


Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


To shorten something means it was a certain length of time, then it was shortened to a shorter amount of time.

Mar_13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. (the original time will be shorter to benefit the elect)

One day I was thinking about what Jesus said about the GT, "such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will." I immediately thought about Noah's flood and the fact that the flood left only eight survivors. If I were sitting in the back of the class I would raise my hand and ask Jesus, "how can anything be worse than Noah's flood?"

Click to expand...

That's the wrong example. Tribulation in the context Christ used it was persecution against the church. The flood was God's wrath on a sinful world.

So I continued to ponder Jesus' statement about the GT and how such a thing had not occurred since the beginning of the world. I turned my attention to his prediction that the Jews would once again be taken into exile. During the time of Jeremiah, the exiles were in Babylon for 70 years. And until 1948, the exiles were spread out around the world for almost 1900 years. By comparison with the Babylonian exile, the World Wide exile was much greater in duration and toward the end, much greater in intensity.

So, I guess, both the intensity and the duration are "great", but I think Jesus was comparing it with the Babylonian exile, which was less intense and shorter in duration.

comments?

Click to expand...

You have misidentified what the "Great Tribulation" will be, how long it will be and who is the target of it. The Great Tribulation is satan's wrath on the church. It is a short period of time just preceding the second coming.

CadyandZoe said:

I was thinking the opposite. I was thinking "great" = "a really long period of time."

One day I was thinking about what Jesus said about the GT, "such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will." I immediately thought about Noah's flood and the fact that the flood left only eight survivors. If I were sitting in the back of the class I would raise my hand and ask Jesus, "how can anything be worse than Noah's flood?"

So I continued to ponder Jesus' statement about the GT and how such a thing had not occurred since the beginning of the world. I turned my attention to his prediction that the Jews would once again be taken into exile. During the time of Jeremiah, the exiles were in Babylon for 70 years. And until 1948, the exiles were spread out around the world for almost 1900 years. By comparison with the Babylonian exile, the World Wide exile was much greater in duration and toward the end, much greater in intensity.

So, I guess, both the intensity and the duration are "great", but I think Jesus was comparing it with the Babylonian exile, which was less intense and shorter in duration.

comments?

Click to expand...

At the Second Coming all Adam's flesh and blood will physically die, or be changed. The only survivors are the beheaded and the sheep and wheat chosen by Christ the Prince, Himself.

No souls with sin hiding in an ark or bunker. That is why it is great. Most people are attached to their life. That will all change at the Second Coming. All the works of mankind will be burned up.

No Pre-TB said:

Im sorry, but I do not believe Physical Israel is a fig tree that was to bloom in 1948. There’s plenty of reasons for this but I’ll just say this one.

If the resurrection of the dead happens by 2028 (80 years) I’ll happily say I was mistaken. But if the world goes on past 2028, will everyone else admit they were wrong and give up on that idea?

Click to expand...

2028 is too far away. Try the Easter of 2023. That is not date setting, but I think 2028 is too far out. It is really not about a set period of time. Someone could live to 114 or even 116.

If you can figure out another fig tree that is to bloom, who?

Enoch111 said:

The DOL corresponds to the Great Tribulation. So how could that even be possible since all the saints and angels come with Christ FROM HEAVEN when He descends to earth for the battle of Armageddon? How do people come up with such absurd ideas?

Before Christ descends to earth with His saints and angels (metaphorically called "clouds" in Rev 1:7 and other verses) we see the Marriage of the Lamb in Heaven (Rev 19). Since the Bride of Christ is the Church, the Church is in Heaven BEFORE the Marriage. And in order for that to be possible, the Church must already have been raptured to Heaven much earlier (since there is a judgment of the works of Christians prior to that at the Judgment Seat of Christ). And since there is no connection of the Rapture to any Tribulation period (in any passage referring to the Rapture) the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is what is revealed in Scripture.

Click to expand...

Excuse me. I grant that our ideas differ, but I don't think you are being fair when you say they are absurd. I maintain the the DOL does not correspond to the Great Tribulation. Jesus says that the GT ends immediately after Israel sees the sign of the son of God in the clouds of heaven and I do not accept that "clouds" in this context is symbolic.

ewq1938 said:

The seals tell us of future events including some Great Tribulation events and second coming etc. I believe the 6th trump is when the Great Tribulation takes place because it ends with the two prophets rising into heaven and an earthquake then the 7th trump sounds the same day and that is the official end of the Great Tribulation since all surviving Christians are made immortal and moved to the clouds, thus no tribulation against Christians can ever happen again.

The day of the Lord is not related to any part of the Great Tribulation, the seals or trumps. There are many days of the lord in scripture. Two in the NT are references to the second coming, and one much later when it is time for the New Heaven and new Earth which happens after the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ).

Click to expand...

In my view the four horses of the Apocalypse symbolize the events surrounding the Roman/Jewish wars of AD70. The fifth seal doesn't represent an event but a condition, i.e. martyrdom of the saints. The sixth seal represents the DOL.

In my view the GT is over by the time the trumpets begin to sound. The first four trumpets represent the call of Israel to come to Jerusalem. The fifth and the sixth trumpet represent "the purge" of Israel, when the Father destroys the land of Israel with fire.

I'm not sure I agree with your seventh trumpet interpretation but frankly I am leaning your direction.

ewq1938 said:

That's impossible according to Christ:


Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


To shorten something means it was a certain length of time, then it was shortened to a shorter amount of time.

Click to expand...

I don't think Jesus meant to say that the number of days was scheduled to run a certain period of time but then the number of days was reduced. I think he is saying that had the number of days been longer no flesh would remain alive.

It isn't that your proposal won't work. It's just that God isn't like that. He always knows the outcome of his plans. He knows how many days to schedule so that the number of days won't result in an extinction event. He knows that in advance, so he doesn't need to change his plans on the fly, like we would.

That's the wrong example. Tribulation in the context Christ used it was persecution against the church.

Click to expand...

Okay, persecution is a bit different than death, isn't it? Not every persecuted Christ becomes a martyr, yes? (I'm thinking out loud here.)(

You have misidentified what the "Great Tribulation" will be, how long it will be and who is the target of it. The Great Tribulation is satan's wrath on the church. It is a short period of time just preceding the second coming.

Click to expand...

But where does the Bible say that?

Timtofly said:

At the Second Coming all Adam's flesh and blood will physically die, or be changed. The only survivors are the beheaded and the sheep and wheat chosen by Christ the Prince, Himself.

No souls with sin hiding in an ark or bunker. That is why it is great. Most people are attached to their life. That will all change at the Second Coming. All the works of mankind will be burned up.

Click to expand...

What about the kingdom and the millennial period?

CadyandZoe said:

What about the kingdom and the millennial period?

Click to expand...

Revelation 20:4 starts the 1,000 year reign with a physical resurrection. The sheep, and wheat, and the 144k are physically changed to live during the Millennium without sin. They are the firstfruits of the kingdom Coming out of the final harvest.

Do you think the great tribulation has been ongoing since the first century, as in the Seals being opened? There is not going to be any trouble at all during the Trumpets and Thunders?

It could be viewed this way. Those redeemed from the OT have not ruled on earth during the last 1992 years. They were taken to Paradise. At the Second Coming the church will be removed and join them in Paradise. While some in the first century were part of the OT system, during the earthly ministry of Jesus, they became firstfruits of the NT church.

Now we are at the end of NT church. God has planned the last 1,000 years on earth, once again to be physically ruled by Israel. None of the OT redeemed are part of this rule. None of the NT redeemed are part of this rule. The church has been given authority in Paradise, but not physically on earth. At the Second Coming, there will be a time while Jesus gathers the firstfruits for this earthly kingdom. This final harvest is during the Trumpets and Thunders. But these firstfruits are not for Paradise. They are for the 1,000 year reign, while Satan is bound in the pit. These people on earth are still in the Lamb's book of life. They are still redeemed. They are not glorified like the church in Paradise. They will have offspring as Isaiah 65 points out. They will never die. 20 to 40 generations later, people will be spread out over the whole earth. Those last generations and those the furthest away from Jerusalem, will be the ones, Satan targets with his deception and lies. The core camp of the saints, all those firstfruits cannot be deceived.

The difference between the NT church is that those first firstfruits, in the first century, still had to deal with sin, they had to physically die. They are not still camped out in Jerusalem, today. Nor did Jesus reign from Jerusalem for the last 1992 years. The fulness of the Gentiles was by faith just like the OT Israel still had to take God at His Word by faith. The iron rod rule of the Messiah Prince will not be by faith. It will be by direct obedience to that rule. Physical death is still possible, and those who rebel will have to die. No one will be permitted to live as a sinner in sin, and no rehabilitation. Death is the last enemy to defeat after Satan is cast into the LOF.