Timing of the abomination of desolation

Randy Kluth said:

I don't subscribe to Replacement Theology.

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Has not God replaced two with one?

Ephesians 2
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

covenantee said:

Has not God replaced two with one?

Ephesians 2
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

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Yes, Christ is the basis of unity between all Christians from all peoples, and the basis for unity among Christian nations. Israel's path under the Law was the only available covenant for nations at that time. But Christ has discredited the Law as inept not just for Israel but also for all nations.

And so Christ made opportunity for a new covenant on behalf of all nations, a covenant that will last. Those who participate in that covenant are certainly "one" in him.

The two, Israel and the world outside Israel's covenant, are no longer necessarily separated. Christ has offered the world a path forward through himself. The two, Christian Israel, as yet only partly fulfilled, and the Christian nations, have indeed been made "one."

Randy Kluth said:

I personally believe that most of the Northern Kingdom perished form history, and the peoples merged with other nations and peoples.

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Quite correct, the ten Northern tribes have disappeared from our knowledge and the historical record as is generally taught. But this is God's doing, He has removed the memory of them...Deuteronomy 32:26, and He knows who and where they are today. Amos 9:9
God sent Jesus to save them, Matthew 15:24, He was successful and we Christians are the result. WE are the Israelites of God, as as Paul makes clear in Galatians 6:14-16.

Saying that we have 'replaced' Israel, is not the case as those who claim to be Israel today, actually are not. as Jesus says in Revelation 3:9.
The only Jews who will be allowed to join with their brethren will be those who are Christians now. Jeremiah 12:14-16
A few now in the holy Land and most still scattered among the nations, many in America, as the other ten tribes are. Ezekiel 34:6

Randy Kluth said:

The Jews, therefore, constitute the sum total of all 12 tribes of Israel

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This assertion is wrong, proved by how Israelites were to become as many as the sands of the sea.
Also the Jews have not received the Blessings as prophesied by Jacob and Moses.

Your belief of who is Israel, means that Jesus failed in His Mission and all credit for the Gospel goes to the Apostles and the evangelists.

Randy Kluth said:

The two, Israel and the world outside Israel's covenant, are no longer necessarily separated. Christ has offered the world a path forward through himself. The two, Christian Israel, as yet only partly fulfilled, and the Christian nations, have indeed been made "one."

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I hope you realize how you contradict yourself.
How exactly is *Christian Israel partially fulfilled* ? The Body of Christ, Jew and Gentile: IS the fulfillment! 1 Peter 2:9-10

The idea, promoted by the 'rapture' believers, of a general redemption of the Jews, is false and this will happen: They will be thrown out of the Kingdom.... Matthew 8:12

Keraz said:

I hope you realize how you contradict yourself.
How exactly is *Christian Israel partially fulfilled* ? The Body of Christ, Jew and Gentile: IS the fulfillment! 1 Peter 2:9-10

The idea, promoted by the 'rapture' believers, of a general redemption of the Jews, is false and this will happen: They will be thrown out of the Kingdom.... Matthew 8:12

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I agree with Dispensationalists and with the earliest Church Fathers that Israel will, as a nation, be restored. Denial of this seems to have come, hand and glove, with the rise of Amillennialism, which denies there will be a literal Kingdom Age in which Israel will be restored to covenant relationship with God.

Nothing I'm saying is contradictory, but only advocates for the same thing Paul promoted, which is the idea that Israel is only partially fulfilled in the present NT era, having only a remnant of Christian believers. The majority of Jews are hardened and resistant to the Gospel in the present age, being led astray by Rabbinic Judaism and bad leadership.

I believe that God's judgment at Christ's Coming will remedy this, removing the bad leadership among the Jews, and destroying a Jewish anti-Christian consensus through warfare. God only tolerates it in the present age while allowing other nations to have equal opportunity to receive the Gospel.

When all nations have exhausted their openness to the Gospel, then divine judgment will come upon all at Armageddon. This will remove the iron control Satan has over the world, and allow fulfillment of the Kingdom Age, in which both Israel and an international family of Christian nations will be led by Christian governments.

Keraz said:

Quite correct, the ten Northern tribes have disappeared from our knowledge and the historical record as is generally taught. But this is God's doing, He has removed the memory of them...Deuteronomy 32:26, and He knows who and where they are today. Amos 9:9
God sent Jesus to save them, Matthew 15:24, He was successful and we Christians are the result. WE are the Israelites of God, as as Paul makes clear in Galatians 6:14-16.

Saying that we have 'replaced' Israel, is not the case as those who claim to be Israel today, actually are not. as Jesus says in Revelation 3:9.
The only Jews who will be allowed to join with their brethren will be those who are Christians now. Jeremiah 12:14-16
A few now in the holy Land and most still scattered among the nations, many in America, as the other ten tribes are. Ezekiel 34:6

This assertion is wrong, proved by how Israelites were to become as many as the sands of the sea.
Also the Jews have not received the Blessings as prophesied by Jacob and Moses.

Your belief of who is Israel, means that Jesus failed in His Mission and all credit for the Gospel goes to the Apostles and the evangelists.

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Your view is similar to the Anglo-Israel theory, which I reject as racist. God includes all races in His Salvation, not just people who have certain blood-types.

Randy Kluth said:

I agree with Dispensationalists and with the earliest Church Fathers that Israel will, as a nation, be restored. Denial of this seems to have come, hand and glove, with the rise of Amillennialism, which denies there will be a literal Kingdom Age in which Israel will be restored to covenant relationship with God.

Nothing I'm saying is contradictory, but only advocates for the same thing Paul promoted, which is the idea that Israel is only partially fulfilled in the present NT era, having only a remnant of Christian believers. The majority of Jews are hardened and resistant to the Gospel in the present age, being led astray by Rabbinic Judaism and bad leadership.

I believe that God's judgment at Christ's Coming will remedy this, removing the bad leadership among the Jews, and destroying a Jewish anti-Christian consensus through warfare. God only tolerates it in the present age while allowing other nations to have equal opportunity to receive the Gospel.

When all nations have exhausted their openness to the Gospel, then divine judgment will come upon all at Armageddon. This will remove the iron control Satan has over the world, and allow fulfillment of the Kingdom Age, in which both Israel and an international family of Christian nations will be led by Christian governments.

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How does God identify a Jew?

1. DNA
2. Religion
3. Culture
4. Domicile
5. ?

Keeping in mind:

Romans 2
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Randy Kluth said:

I agree with Dispensationalists and with the earliest Church Fathers that Israel will, as a nation, be restored

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And I agree with this, too. It is as Paul; says.
Our disagreement is with who is the true Israel.

Are they the apostate, false religion, LBGT and neighbor hating people currently in a small part of the holy Land? Or is the real Israelites those who have done what Jacob did: Overcame evil for God, as we see in each of the 7 Church's of Revelation?
Also as Paul plainly states in Galatians 6:14-16
I am not racist and neither is God. People make their own choices as to which camp they belong to and there are just two camps; For and against God.

As for what will happen to these who falsely claim to be Israel, Prophecy is clear: they will be virtually wiped out. Isaiah 22:14, Amos 2:4-5, +

Randy Kluth said:

I agree with Dispensationalists and with the earliest Church Fathers that Israel will, as a nation, be restored. Denial of this seems to have come, hand and glove, with the rise of Amillennialism, which denies there will be a literal Kingdom Age in which Israel will be restored to covenant relationship with God.

Nothing I'm saying is contradictory, but only advocates for the same thing Paul promoted, which is the idea that Israel is only partially fulfilled in the present NT era, having only a remnant of Christian believers. The majority of Jews are hardened and resistant to the Gospel in the present age, being led astray by Rabbinic Judaism and bad leadership.

I believe that God's judgment at Christ's Coming will remedy this, removing the bad leadership among the Jews, and destroying a Jewish anti-Christian consensus through warfare. God only tolerates it in the present age while allowing other nations to have equal opportunity to receive the Gospel.

When all nations have exhausted their openness to the Gospel, then divine judgment will come upon all at Armageddon. This will remove the iron control Satan has over the world, and allow fulfillment of the Kingdom Age, in which both Israel and an international family of Christian nations will be led by Christian governments.

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Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Randy Kluth said:

I agree with Dispensationalists and with the earliest Church Fathers that Israel will, as a nation, be restored. Denial of this seems to have come, hand and glove, with the rise of Amillennialism, which denies there will be a literal Kingdom Age in which Israel will be restored to covenant relationship with God.

Nothing I'm saying is contradictory, but only advocates for the same thing Paul promoted, which is the idea that Israel is only partially fulfilled in the present NT era, having only a remnant of Christian believers. The majority of Jews are hardened and resistant to the Gospel in the present age, being led astray by Rabbinic Judaism and bad leadership.

I believe that God's judgment at Christ's Coming will remedy this, removing the bad leadership among the Jews, and destroying a Jewish anti-Christian consensus through warfare. God only tolerates it in the present age while allowing other nations to have equal opportunity to receive the Gospel.

When all nations have exhausted their openness to the Gospel, then divine judgment will come upon all at Armageddon. This will remove the iron control Satan has over the world, and allow fulfillment of the Kingdom Age, in which both Israel and an international family of Christian nations will be led by Christian governments.

Click to expand...

When Jesus Christ Returns It Will Be (The End) Not The Start Of A Millennial Kingdom On Earth

As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ

Afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many falsely claim

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Randy Kluth said:

Marty and I disagree--he is a Partial Preterist, and I am not. Good Christians can disagree agreeably. Maybe that will teach you something?

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Of course your a partial preterist, you believe Matthew 24:15 in Daniel's Abomination was fulfilled in 70AD when Roman Armies surrounded Jerusalem, on that alone your in the partial preterist camp

Timtofly said:

He is one of the two witnesses killed by the beast. H

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That's debatable. Moses, Elijah and Enoch also vie for that position.

covenantee said:

How does God identify a Jew?

1. DNA
2. Religion
3. Culture
4. Domicile
5. ?

Keeping in mind:

Romans 2
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

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Like any father, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had natural children and the possibility of adopted children. They maintained family contact and grew into a village, and after that into a nation.

The nation carried the inheritance of their patriarch, when that patriarch started a religious tradition among them. At that point, the nation can be identified both genetically and culturally, genetically by tracing back to the original natural children, and culturally because of their common association with one another and with the religion they inherited.

friend of said:

That's debatable. Moses, Elijah and Enoch also vie for that position.

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I believe Enoch/Elijah who never experienced a human death, Moses died and was buried

Randy Kluth said:

Like any father, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had natural children and the possibility of adopted children. They maintained family contact and grew into a village, and after that into a nation.

The nation carried the inheritance of their patriarch, when that patriarch started a religious tradition among them. At that point, the nation can be identified both genetically and culturally, genetically by tracing back to the original natural children, and culturally because of their common association with one another and with the religion they inherited.

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And theses genetic humans are going to be your future "National Israel" that will be restored upon earth?

What percentage of these genetics qualify a human on earth to become a part of your future "National Israel",10%-50%-100%?

Randy Kluth said:

Like any father, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had natural children and the possibility of adopted children. They maintained family contact and grew into a village, and after that into a nation.

The nation carried the inheritance of their patriarch, when that patriarch started a religious tradition among them. At that point, the nation can be identified both genetically and culturally, genetically by tracing back to the original natural children, and culturally because of their common association with one another and with the religion they inherited.

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But genetics and culture are not what Romans 2:28-29 says identifies a Jew to God.

God has never favored anyone based on genetics or culture.

The characteristics in Romans 2:29 are the results of faith and obedience.

Nothing else.

Dispensationalism's attempts to racialize God and His Word are errant, antiscriptural, and antichristian.

covenantee said:

But genetics and culture are not what Romans 2:28-29 says identifies a Jew to God.

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You have to interpret it correctly.
Rom 2.28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh: 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

This is not saying that a Jew does not have a physical trait that identifies him as a Jew. Obviously, he does.

Rather, what it is saying is that externals cannot pass without the need for internal qualities. A true Jew must be one physically and spiritually. That is, he must have faith in God.

All the ancient Hebrews began with faith in God, proclaiming as one their acceptance of one God. But as we know from the biblical account, many did not retain their faith, which is what disqualified them. They were cut off from their people.

covenantee said:

God has never favored anyone based on genetics or culture.

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The Scriptures clearly indicated that God favored those who obeyed His word. It was essential, if one was to be a member of Israel, to choose the one God, and to be faithful to Him. Then he was promised God's favor.

Amos 3.2 “You only have I chosen of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your sins.”

If a nation was specially chosen, much also was expected. It was not an example of partiality, but rather, a matter of God's plan to bring the message of redemption to the world, beginning with Abraham, and then continuing through the nation Israel. The goal was to reach out to many nations with the message of reconciliation to God.

covenantee said:

Dispensationalism's attempts to racialize God and His Word are errant, antiscriptural, and antichristian.

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Well yes, I'm not a Dispensationalist. I agree with them that Israel will be recovered. But I do not agree with them that Israel will somehow be the head over all nations.

The plan, all along, was to reach out to all nations, and not to exalt the 1st nation above all the rest. God loves all men equally. He has no favorites. And I think you were suggesting that?

Truth7t7 said:

And theses genetic humans are going to be your future "National Israel" that will be restored upon earth?

What percentage of these genetics qualify a human on earth to become a part of your future "National Israel",10%-50%-100%?

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It is not just the proportion of genuine Abrahamic DNA that qualifies one to be "Jewish." It is the fact that a people emerged from Abraham's family, through Isaac and Jacob, and then expanded into Israel. Those, then, who mixed in with them or were descended from them, came to be known as the promised nation, the biological heir to Abraham.

The giving of the Law of God defined them for centuries so that a national heritage began that continues to the present day. That's who we call "Jewish" today.

Truth7t7 said:

Of course your a partial preterist, you believe Matthew 24:15 in Daniel's Abomination was fulfilled in 70AD when Roman Armies surrounded Jerusalem, on that alone your in the partial preterist camp

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That is only one of the beliefs that PP's have. And no, that particular belief alone does *not* define what a PP is. You need to read a little more.

PP's have a systematic theology that tends to look back into the past to obtain their prophetic guidance. They don't wish to speculate about the future, assigning various so-called "prophecies" to any number of contemporary applications.

I do have sympathies for PPs. On the other hand, I do think we have future prophecy in the Bible that helps us to set our views straight.

Truth7t7 said:

When Jesus Christ Returns It Will Be (The End) Not The Start Of A Millennial Kingdom On Earth

As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

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That is your proof, that Paul said the "End" will come when Jesus returns? That is really pathetic!

You need to ask yourself: the end of what? It is the end of this age, Paul speaks of, which argues for a new age to follow it. When one age ends, another must begin.