22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

Rich R · Aug 25, 2022

dad said:
Very simple you need to answer one question first. Is Jesus Christ God or not? If you say yes, then we simply need to realize that God is One God. If our minds are too small to comprehend how God could have planned to come to earth before the world began, and yet also still be God even though a part of Him was in a human body then so what? No one says we need to know it all right now. When God became a man and lived in time and space and a body He was Jesus. Jesus limiting Himself did and does not limit God outside of time and space and this world. As Jesus said, "I and my Father are one"

I quoted a couple of very straight forward verses that say only the Father is God. I can understand that perfectly fine. Very simple declaration.

Trying to make Jesus, who is NOT the Father, is why the church has to say God is too big to comprehend. But the scriptures themselves declare something decidedly different:

Eph 3:14-19,

14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

This looks like we can comprehend God. No need to make up totally illogical doctrine and then say, "take it by faith..." There is no problem for a son and a father being two decidedly different and separate individuals. The problem comes when we say a son and father can be the same person. To get around that though, they just say, "oh...they are 3 persons with one essence." Not only is that nowhere to be found in the scriptures, but it is a complete non-sequitur, hence the necessary directive to, "take it by faith."

dad · Aug 25, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
Right, God's promise to Abraham was 2-fold, to have a nation for his biological posterity and to have a family of nations who share his faith. Those who deny literal Israel a place in God's plan do not entirely reject the truth, however, since they do accept that all who have faith will be saved. That must include Jews who convert to Christ at the coming of Christ. Sadly, Amils reject any notion of anybody coming to Christ in the next age. And the "darkness" about this is that God's promises appear then to have failed, and only succeed if "Israel" is redefined as the International Church.

Nice to know they do not believe the bible, so they can be flushed.

The reality is, Israel has been suffering great tribulation since the Early Church. The period of their "Punishment" actually began in 70 AD, when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. But yes, I think we're seeing the intensity of trouble increase once again, and not long after the Holocaust, which in itself is terribly great tribulation.

Nevertheless the special specific Great Tribulation is that time when God deals with Israel in a special and specific way. Nothing compares to that time of trouble.

Eze 36 indicates that God sometimes begins His plan of salvation for Israel *before* Israel repents. God reaches out to them to aid them in coming to Salvation. But you're entitled to your opinion.

No doubt He has reached out to them a lot over time.

I do believe Israel is saved because they are a "nation called Israel." This is necessary if God is to be genuinely faithful to Abraham's biological descendants. Someone among the Jews must pick up the torch of faith.

They have that special opportunity if the accept and believe. They do not have it if they depart from Him. Only the saved will be restored and protected etc.

And though the majority of Jews have dragged down those who might believe, God will prepare a judgment to liberate the remnant who will believe. The result will be leadership by these new Christians at Christ's Return, causing the entire nation to become a "Christian nation."

There will be no entire nation except for that remnant that accept Jesus in the end. The rest were all killed. Christians have their home with Jesus in that place He prepared. I am not sure that Israel will need non Jews to rule them since they will be believers.

You must've misunderstood me. Never have I said that all Christians inherit the land of Israel! Only converted Jews will inherit the land of Israel at Christ's Return! Christians in other countries who live in Christian states will have their own land to inherit there.

OK, I guess we don't need to fine tune it all. I envision God gathering the Jews who believe from all over the world and restoring them to that land. I could be wrong, but I suspect a lot of Jews who are saved now and with Jesus would choose to live at least part time in the land of promise here.

I'm not entirely clear about your position here? I personally believe glorified believers from the present age will rule over the earth during the Millennium.

Right, He says we will rule with Him.

I believe that we will return with Jesus only to establish his Kingdom here. But we will then return with him to heaven to rule from heaven (not so sure about this point).

Bingo! While spending maybe a lot of time on earth it will not be our home then. Israel is the exception I think, since they were promised (and want) that land!

On earth, Jews will return en mass to God by accepting Christianity, in particular because the wicked majority will be devastated in these endtimes. But this will happen, I believe, in all nations called by God.

We are close on that point. I think ALL Israel will be saved. Not a majority of Israel.

There will be "sheep" nations and "goat" nations at that time. The sheep nations will be Christian nations while the goat nations will be pagan nations. They will have peace imposed upon them all from heaven because Christ will rule as such together with his glorified Church, at least until the final rebellion when Satan is released once again.

Now that gets into a speculative area, - who are the people on earth being ruled over. Not sure this thread is the place to flesh that one out.

dad · Aug 25, 2022

Truth7t7 said:
Jesus Christ Warned His Followers, Concerning Him Being On This Earth In A Millennium (Beware)!!!

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false in deception

Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Despite the bolding and colored letters, none of that even remotely relates to the 1000 years. No one will be saying Jesus is hiding then!

dad · Aug 25, 2022

Truth7t7 said:
Your claims are "False" believing people are "The Church"!

Ridiculous. The believers in the Tribulation are not the church, which has been taken up in the air by then. The believers in the 1000 years are not the church either! Neither are the people in newly saved Israel! Etc

The scripture below talks about the seed of Abraham and children of the flesh, they aren't the Children of God, the book of Romans was written "After" the cross of Calvary

They are not saved BECAUSE they are children of Abraham. Nor are they unable to be saved if they are!

Your Zionist teachings in (Two Peoples) of God has "Failed" the Church is the Israel of God, children of the promised seed

Two? Forget that. There is the Bride. Then there are new believers from the tribulation. Then there are new believers in the 1000 years. Then there is saved Israel. Ha. His kingdom is made up of more than the church. God is much bigger than you think.

When a Jew is saved they become "Church" where there isn't Jew or Greek it's that simple, if your not blinded by dispensationalism's Zionist (Dual Covenant Theology) in (Two Peoples) of God

No one becomes the church after the church is long gone! They may become saved though, of course.

They are not saved because they are children of Abraham, but the saved folks who are Jews are eligible for certain promises. Christians now are eligible for certain promises. Sick people are eligible for certain promises. Sad people are eligible for certain promises. Praying people are eligible for certain promises. Etc etc.

dad · Aug 25, 2022

Keraz said:
Abraham was promised to be the father of many nations. Genesis 17:4
They are identified today as the Christian, Western nations. Galatians 3:29 clearly states that people who belong to Christ ARE the children of Abraham.
The wrong idea that a mixed race people group who have occupied a small part of the holy Land, are the exclusive inheritors of God's Promises to Israel, is error and falsely promotes them as someone special.

Plenty of Bible Prophesies apply to the Jewish people and to their evil neighbors. Jeremiah 12:14 says they will all be uprooted and gone from all of the holy land. Jeremiah 10:18, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Ezekiel 21:1-7
THEN; the true, faithful Christian peoples will gather and live there, in peace and prosperity. Isaiah 35:1-10, Isaiah 62:1-5, Ezekiel 34:11-16

They will also be brought back, saved and protected. So there.

jeffweeder · Aug 25, 2022

dad said:
If all Israel gets saved where would you think they would live, Siberia?

They/ us will not be living on this old earth as it passes away at his coming. Why else do you think the Apostle Peter looked for a NHNE along with the promise of his coming?
Jesus ascended to prepare a place for the saved, and when he comes again we will be with him were he is...Its called the New Jerusalem that comes down all prepared on a NHNE.

Matt 24
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.

2Pet 3
Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. 14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,

Jn 14
2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

Revelation 21:2
And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

Heb 12
18 For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, 19 and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them. 20 For they could not bear the command, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it will be stoned.” 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, “I am full of fear and trembling.” 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

jeffweeder · Aug 25, 2022

Rich R said:
This looks like we can comprehend God. No need to make up totally illogical doctrine and then say, "take it by faith..." There is no problem for a son and a father being two decidedly different and separate individuals. The problem comes when we say a son and father can be the same person. To get around that though, they just say, "oh...they are 3 persons with one essence." Not only is that nowhere to be found in the scriptures, but it is a complete non-sequitur, hence the necessary directive to, "take it by faith."

Jn 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Jn 10
30 I and the Father are one.”

Jn 20
26 After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus *came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then He *said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus *said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

Col1
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Gen 1
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

dad · Aug 25, 2022

jeffweeder said:
They/ us will not be living on this old earth as it passes away at his coming.

How do we rule a world that vanishes exactly?

Why else do you think the Apostle Peter looked for a NHNE along with the promise of his coming?

There is a new world coming after the 1000 years. Even the world in the 1000 years is pretty good.

Jesus ascended to prepare a place for the saved, and when he comes again we will be with him were he is...Its called the New Jerusalem that comes down all prepared on a NHNE.

If you notice we actually return to earth with Him.

And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

Look when this happens in the verses before it spells it out.

Revelation 20:7

And when the thousand years are expired, --

Spiritual Israelite · Aug 25, 2022

dad said:
It is now not of this world, when He takes over it obviously will be on this world.

When He takes over? He already took over His kingdom long ago, as passages like Matthew 28:16-18 and Ephesians 1:19-23 indicate. He's not going to take it over when He returns, He's going to hand it over to the Father.

That seems to be after the 1000 years.

I actually agree that the end of the age will come after the 1000 years. But, do you not believe that Jesus will come at the end of the age? Is that not implied in the Olivet Discourse where it shows He was asked about what would be the sign of His coming and the end of the age (Matthew 24:3)? Do you think He was asked about the sign of His coming and also about the sign of the end of the age? If so, can you tell me in which verses in the Olivet Discourse that He answered the question about His coming and in which verses He answered the question about the end of the age?

He is not the king of the world now. He is our king.

Wow. So, do you think Jesus was mistaken when He said this:

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Was John mistaken when he wrote this:

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

covenantee · Aug 25, 2022

dad said:
If all Israel gets saved where would you think they would live, Siberia?

Do you have a problem with heaven?

jeffweeder · Aug 25, 2022

dad said:
How do we rule a world that vanishes exactly?

Was Jesus wrong to say that H/E pass away at his coming?
We reign in this life now and the gates of hell cannot do a thing about it.

How do you propose we rule over the wicked in our Glorified state? If the world doesnt believe on that evidence alone, then its a hopeless situation. Thats why it will never happen. Its by faith remember.

What more can we do that is not being done now? Are we to beat them into submission and force them to comply??
Doesnt make any sense at all.

[ Quote DAD ] There is a new world coming after the 1000 years.]

That is not what Peter is saying. Him and his congregation looked for a NHNE at Jesus coming.

2Pet 3
Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. 14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,

Spiritual Israelite · Aug 25, 2022

Rich R said:
No Mormon, JW, or any thing like that. I just read 1 Cor 8:6 and John 17:3 and take them to say that the only true God is the Father. Is Jesus the Father? No. Then he's not the one true God.

So, you're part of some other cult which denies that Jesus is God then? Have you never read this:

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Or this:

Isaiah 9:6 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Or this:

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Or this:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Spiritual Israelite · Aug 25, 2022

Rich R said:
I quoted a couple of very straight forward verses that say only the Father is God. I can understand that perfectly fine. Very simple declaration.

Trying to make Jesus, who is NOT the Father, is why the church has to say God is too big to comprehend. But the scriptures themselves declare something decidedly different:

Eph 3:14-19,

14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

This looks like we can comprehend God. No need to make up totally illogical doctrine and then say, "take it by faith..." There is no problem for a son and a father being two decidedly different and separate individuals. The problem comes when we say a son and father can be the same person. To get around that though, they just say, "oh...they are 3 persons with one essence." Not only is that nowhere to be found in the scriptures, but it is a complete non-sequitur, hence the necessary directive to, "take it by faith."

Scripture repeatedly teaches that Jesus is God. You are deceived.

Spiritual Israelite · Aug 25, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
Right, God's promise to Abraham was 2-fold, to have a nation for his biological posterity and to have a family of nations who share his faith. Those who deny literal Israel a place in God's plan do not entirely reject the truth, however, since they do accept that all who have faith will be saved. That must include Jews who convert to Christ at the coming of Christ. Sadly, Amils reject any notion of anybody coming to Christ in the next age. And the "darkness" about this is that God's promises appear then to have failed, and only succeed if "Israel" is redefined as the International Church.

You're not telling the whole story here about Amils, which I find to be a dishonest tactic on your part. We reject the notion of anybody coming to Christ in the next age, not because of God failing to keep His promises, but rather because the next age is eternal. Look at what Jesus said about this age in contrast to the age to come (or next age):

Luke 20:34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

So, what Jesus indicated about this age that we're living in now is that people get married and they die and the resurrection of the dead does not yet occur. And He indicated that once the resurrection of the dead occurs at the end of this age (which is when Jesus returns) then the "age to come" or next age will be ushered in during which people "will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they can no longer die". A clear reference to eternity. So, your understanding of the age to come does not match what Jesus taught about it.

Spiritual Israelite · Aug 25, 2022

Jane_Doe22 said:
Actual "Mormon" here: Jesus Christ is God. The Son of God to be more specific. He, the Father, and the Spirit are 3 different divine persons in 1 God.

Do you believe that Jesus was not created and is eternal (has always existed)? I'm talking about Jesus as God here. Obviously, He is also a human being and was born over 2,000 years ago, but I'm only talking about His deity here.

Spiritual Israelite · Aug 25, 2022

dad said:
So not all people who were alive in Israel were Israel the verse says. That points out that only the believing people there were part of Israel as far as God is concerned and in any true sense.

So, this means that there are 2 Israels. The nation of Israel, consisting of both believers and unbelievers, and then those who are part of true or spiritual Israel which are those who believe. In which of those Israels are all saved?

dad · Aug 25, 2022

Spiritual Israelite said:
When He takes over? He already took over His kingdom long ago, as passages like Matthew 28:16-18 and Ephesians 1:19-23 indicate. He's not going to take it over when He returns, He's going to hand it over to the Father.

He will rule earth with a rod of iron. The nations today are not ruled by Jesus. No possible debating that one.

I actually agree that the end of the age will come after the 1000 years. But, do you not believe that Jesus will come at the end of the age?

His return starts the 1000 year reign.

Is that not implied in the Olivet Discourse where it shows He was asked about what would be the sign of His coming and the end of the age (Matthew 24:3)? Do you think He was asked about the sign of His coming and also about the sign of the end of the age?

Simple. What age could it possibly refer to? The age before He returns. Not after.

If so, can you tell me in which verses in the Olivet Discourse that He answered the question about His coming and in which verses He answered the question about the end of the age?

No use trying to fine tune things with someone that has no clue about the basics.

Wow. So, do you think Jesus was mistaken when He said this:

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

That did not mean He accepted Satan's offer to rule the kingdoms of this world at the time. Of course God has authority! That does not mean
He now rules governments and kingdoms and has returned yet!

Was John mistaken when he wrote this:

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Not at all, because John knew what he was saying unlike you apparently.

dad · Aug 25, 2022

covenantee said:
Do you have a problem with heaven?

Yes. He gathers them to live in Israel. He gathers us to live in heaven.

dad · Aug 25, 2022

jeffweeder said:
Was Jesus wrong to say that H/E pass away at his coming?
We reign in this life now and the gates of hell cannot do a thing about it.

He actually said that His feet would be on the mount of Olives when He returned. Not that earth would be zapped away with some cosmic laser.

How do you propose we rule over the wicked in our Glorified state?

Not sure what you think the problem there is. Should we think that Jesus cannot walk and chew gum at the same time in His eternal body?

What more can we do that is not being done now? Are we to beat them into submission and force them to comply??
Doesnt make any sense at all.

Why would we think you had to do something so that Jesus returned?

[ Quote DAD ] There is a new world coming after the 1000 years.]

That is not what Peter is saying. Him and his congregation looked for a NHNE at Jesus coming.

You do not comprehend the light you read. What surprises me is that you thought you were in a position to teach!
We look for a new heavens at the time God said they will come.

dad · Aug 25, 2022

Spiritual Israelite said:
So, this means that there are 2 Israels. The nation of Israel, consisting of both believers and unbelievers, and then those who are part of true or spiritual Israel which are those who believe. In which of those Israels are all saved?

The one saved is the one where most people in it were killed, and the remnant get saved. That one.

22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

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