What does Colossians 1:16 mean when it says "For by him were all things created..."

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Behold

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There are no human persons in heaven, with one exception.

By """person's" : you mean a human body?

Did you ever read the biblical account of Elijah?

He was not dead when he went to heaven., Matthias.


Did you ever read in the NT.... that Jesus was "transfigured"

Look.

""""Jesus was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them MOSES & ELIJAH , talking with Jesus."""

So, noticed that the apostles SAW Moses and Elijah........ same as Jesus standing there in His BODY.
And recall that Elijah, went to heaven, ALIVE, in his Body.
 

Behold

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You really believe that Jesus is a human person in heaven right now?

OF course.
The NT says that we will see Him again, as the Apostles saw Him Leave.

Read it for yourself..

"""""Now when Jesus had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come back= IN LIKE MANNER, as you saw him go into Heaven".

= That is Jesus in His Body they SAW ascend.... Mr E.
 

Matthias

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You really believe that Jesus is a human person in heaven right now?

Yes. He was a mortal human person. He is now an immortal human person.

I hope you give that idea full (re)consideration. It confounds most things you get right about him.

What do you think mortal human persons become when they are clothed with immortality?
 

Matthias

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By """person's" : you mean a human body?

No.

Did you ever read the biblical account of Elijah?

I’m going to stick my neck out and say that @RLT63 will vouch for me that I have.

He was not dead when he went to heaven., Matthias.

Elijah was alive, not dead, when he was taken up into the sky.

Our conversation has been focused on what happens to the dead, not what happens to those who haven’t died.

Did you ever read in the NT.... that Jesus was "transfigured"

Paging @RLT63. Line 2, please.

Look.

""""Jesus was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them MOSES & ELIJAH , talking with Jesus."""

So, noticed that the apostles SAW Moses and Elijah........ same as Jesus standing there in His BODY.
And recall that Elijah, went to heaven, ALIVE, in his Body.

It was a vision.
 

Matthias

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Luke 1:35 The Lord was conceived in the womb of a virgin. His earthly body was created. He was not.

“We have then here, from the mouth of the angel himself, an authentic explanation of the term Son of God in the former part of his message. After this explanation, Mary could only understand the title in this sense: a human being of whose existence God Himself is the immediate author. It does not convey the idea of preexistence, …”

(Frederick Lewis Godet, Commentary on the Gospel of Luke, p. 93)

When Dr. Godet (a trinitarian) says that “it does not convey the idea of preexistence” he is referring to literal preexistence - “it does not convey the idea of [literal] preexistence.”

Trinitarianism cannot stand without literal preexistence.
 

Mr E

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Yes. He was a mortal human person. He is now an immortal human person.


What do you think mortal human persons become when they are clothed with immortality?


There are no humans in heaven Matt. Mortal and immortal are incompatible.
 

Matthias

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There are no humans in heaven Matt. Mortal and immortal are incompatible.

I think we can dispense with heaven in our discussion. Heaven isn’t the destination of the dying.

I’ve made the assumption that we both believe humans are mortal. If that’s a bad assumption, please correct me.

What do mortals / humans become when clothed with immortality?

If they are no longer humans at that point, what then are they?
 

Wrangler

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Part 1 of 2

Perhaps I should have qualified that statement by saying "every serious Bible student should require of themselves a thorough and exhaustive investigation of the Bible and what it teaches".

This is an @Aunty Jane decree not a mandate from God.

When Jesus asked his apostles to "follow" him, what did they think he meant? What did "following" Jesus entail? Was it simple to just drop everything and follow Jesus?

In some cases, it was simple to just drop everything and follow Jesus. Perhaps you are confusing simple with easy.

Regarding your speculative questions in red, that is besides the point. Indeed, it is irrelevant to the point. And that is what you don't get. Connecting everything to everything is not necessary to understand the singular point under discussion. Follow Jesus. Pretty simple. You don't have to belabor the point. The details of what this means is not up to Aunty Jane or the JW doctrine but the Holy Spirit of God.

If you are a Bible student, (like a student of any other subject) a thorough knowledge of your subject is what makes everything interesting and beneficial.

It's so funny how you lecture people to not impose their doctrine onto Scripture, that Scripture can speak for itself if you let it but then you do this, put more of a burden on God's children than God's Word does.

The goal of Christianity is NOT to be a Bible student!
 

Wrangler

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Part 2 of 2

You see, I have no time for a surface knowledge of these things.....its not the way my mind works.

Agreed. However, it is the way most people's mind works. More importantly, you have made knowledge into an idol. Knowledge is secondary!

Let me give you some personal insight. I spent the better part of the 1st 15 years of my career doing hard core quantitative analysis. What I quickly learned was that people relied on me to 'bottom line it' for them. While the truth involved a lot of gray areas, assumptions that had various degrees of validity and limitations to being put in practice with confidence, most people just wanted a simple answer of what to do.

And this includes both the executives who ran the company to the lowest paid operator. They either lacked the time or the intellectual fire power to delve into the nuances of why X was the proposal to act on. So, I took a deep dive in the analytical pool and become appreciated for my capacity to explain difficult to understand concepts in ways everyone could understand. Being able to simplify the complicated is a hallmark of intelligence. Consider the simplicity of Einstein's equation, E = mc^2. Anyone can recite it. Few can handle the monstrosity of the equation it came from. Moreover, few need to understand all the nuances and ranges of applicability.

By contrast, you tend to complicate the simple as it appeals to your vast intellect. The price is relatability and effectiveness to the common man.

I have an insatiable appetite for knowledge...the Bible is my pet subject....I have been studying it for just on 50 years.....I like to share what I have learned

Your pet project has become an idol! Your assigned project is the Great Commission, to make disciples - not to be a pedant.

pedant
noun

ped·ant | \ ˈpe-dᵊnt \

Definition of pedant

1a: one who is unimaginative or who unduly emphasizes minutiae in the presentation or use of knowledge
b: one who makes a show of knowledge


I am losing no one.....since it isn't me who draws people to the truth of God's word.

Sister, I am taking you to task because you are losing many! Don't be incorrigible. Paul did not become all things to all people for nothing. You cannot fulfill the Great Commission, to make disciples, if you yourself are undisciplined, only using opportunities to engage others to show off your 50 years of study. Pride this is. I pray you consider what I've said and meditate on the Bible verses I referenced. Romans 14:10-14 & 1 Corinthians 9:19-23.

Make a Blessed Day!
 

Peterlag

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This Scripture is the proof that Christ became man. He was in the likeness of us, fully man and "fashioned" as we were. This speaks of the virgin birth, being conceived of the Holy Spirit and not by procreation.

Col. 2:9
"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

This verse is one of the many that presents Christ as God! Christ in the form of man (what He did as man) represents the fulness of the Godhead. He (Christ) is the fulness of Deity. In Him the believer is complete.

It's obvious you will not believe any of this! But on the day when you take part in bowing your knee to Him, there will be no doubt you will know who He is then!

Isn't there a verse somewhere that says what dwells in me is the fullness of God? And I know I'm not God.
 
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Charlie24

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What I see in scripture: Christ didn’t become man. Christ was born man. He was supernaturally created in the womb of his mother by his and his mother’s God.

Jesus is a human person.

Colossians 2:9 should be paired with Colossians 1:19. Jesus was filled with his God’s spirit, just as his followers are.

Jesus is precisely who scripture says he is, and scripture doesn’t say he is the second person of the Trinity.

I would agree wit you if not for this verse and a few others.

John 17:5
"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

He was with the Father before creation, so He was not created at His virgin birth.

He was changed from one form to another, but always existed. I assume He was with the Father in spirit form as the Father.
 

Peterlag

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I do not know why we have so many Christians who believe the entire Bible is written directly to them, the Church of God. There is nothing in the Bible to indicate such thinking, and I would like to add nothing could be further from the truth. It's true the Word of God was written for everyone for all time, and it's for our learning because it contains what everyone should know. That does not mean every part of it is addressed to everyone in this time, because the subject matter was written either to the Jews, to the Gentiles, or to the Church of God (1 Corinthians 10:32).

To rightly understand the Word of God, one must understand what part is written to the Church of God and what part is written for the learning of the Church. Every word from Genesis 1:1, to Revelation 22:21, is written for our learning. However, not all of the words from Genesis 1:1, to Revelation 22:21, are addressed to us. We must learn to distinguish not only the various people, but also the different time periods God has spoken to if we want to understand the written Word of God. The time God spoke to the children of Israel is not the same time period He has spoken to us. The time He spoke to the prophets in the time of the Old Testament is not the same time period He spoke to His Son Jesus Christ in the time of the gospels.

The different time periods in the Bible are called dispensations. The Greek word for “dispensation” is “oikonomia” meaning the act of administering. The word “o’kos” means house, and “nemo” means to dispense, to weigh or deal out, as a steward or housekeeper. Therefore, the word was used to manage or administrate a household. The word is used three times in Luke 16:2-4, where it's translated “stewardship.” In four other places it's translated “dispensation.” I like the word administration because it communicates very well with our current English language. We must understand these administrations have different time periods in the Bible and each have their own beginning and their own ending—with the exception of the last one.

The first is called the Paradise administration. It was the time of innocence, the time before the fall that ends with Adam and Eve being expelled from the garden of the original paradise.

The second is the Patriarchal administration. It was the time after the fall from the Garden of Eden, but before the Law was given. This second administration ended with the coming of the Law to Moses.

The third is the Legal administration. It's suited only to Israel under the Law, and is sometimes called the Mosaic Law that terminated when Jesus Christ died.

The fourth is the Christ administration that overlapped and functioned within the Law administration. Both the Law and the Christ administration officially ended with the coming of Pentecost.

The fifth started on the day of Pentecost as recorded in the second chapter of the book of Acts. This is the present administration of Grace that is for the Church of God. It's the time period you and I now belong to because it's the Grace administration, without any distinction made between the Jew and the Gentile, which will end with the appearing of Jesus Christ.

The sixth begins with the appearing of Jesus Christ, and the gathering together of the saints. Believe it or not, this administration ends with Satan destroyed, and the great white throne judgment.

The seventh is the Glory or Paradise administration, which will not have an ending.
 

Charlie24

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Isn't there a verse somewhere that says what dwells in me is the fullness of God? And I know I'm not God.

Christ never said He wasn't God! He said that He was the Son of God, which would make Him equal with God.

Paul said of Him in Phil. 2:6
"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"

Whether you like it or not, Christ is equal with God and therefore Deity!
 

RLT63

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I think we can dispense with heaven in our discussion. Heaven isn’t the destination of the dying.

I’ve made the assumption that we both believe humans are mortal. If that’s a bad assumption, please correct me.

What do mortals / humans become when clothed with immortality?

If they are no longer humans at that point, what then are they?
John 3:13 but what about Enoch and Elijah?
 

Matthias

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I would agree wit you if not for this verse and a few others.

John 17:5
"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

It was the glory that was promised to him that was with God before the world was.

He was with the Father before creation, so He was not created at His virgin birth.

He wasn’t with the Father before creation, he was created by the Father in the womb of the virgin.

He was changed from one form to another, but always existed.

That’s not what happens when a person is begotten and conceived.

The concept you’re describing has more in common with reincarnation: a being in one form is born in another form.

I assume He was with the Father in spirit form as the Father.

He was in the Father’s word.
 

RLT63

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Let’s begin by looking at the first clause - “No one has ascended into heaven” - and think back to Enoch and Elijah. Do you place them in heaven? If so, when?
That's a mystery. John also says no one has seen God
 

Matthias

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That's a mystery. John also says no one has seen God

I don’t think there’s any mystery about it. No one has ascended to heaven, but he who descended from heaven (i.e. Jesus).

There are only two possibilities with Enoch and Elijah:

1. They were taken into the sky and deposited somewhere other than the highest heaven; or
2. They were exceptions. They didn’t die as it is appointed once for all men to do.
 

Charlie24

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It was the glory that was promised to him that was with God before the world was.



He wasn’t with the Father before creation, he was created by the Father in the womb of the virgin.



That’s not what happens when a person is begotten and conceived.

The concept you’re describing has more in common with reincarnation: a being in one form is born in another form.



He was in the Father’s word.

That is straight out calling Christ a liar!!! He plainly asked the Father to glorify Him in his humanity with the glory He had with the Father before creation.

What you need to understand is that Christ set aside His expression of Deity, lowering Himself to man with the purpose of redeeming mankind. He emptied Himself of His power as God and the acknowledgement of being God and submitted Himself totally to the Holy Spirit.

All the miracles that were performed were not by His power, it was by the power of the Holy Spirit through Him. Christ didn't know what was around the next corner unless the Holy Spirit told Him. He totally submitted Himself to God the Holy Spirit in complete obedience, all the way to the Cross!

When He was asked when He would return, He said no man knows, including Himself, being a man! He didn't know! But you can rest assured He knows now!
 
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