CALVINISM: The height of Spiritual depravity
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None of us have the mind of God to be His counselor, so we cannot know why, just accept what scripture says.
You can also read of God doing this in Romans 11 where God says only the elect obtain salvation, and the rest are blinded.
Salvation is by the grace of God only, and not by our works. If we earned salvation by our works then God owes us salvation as a debt, and that is never going to be acceptable to God as God's salvation is a free gift, unearned, given to His own chosen elect only.
One way to think of this is God calls us according to his electing of us to be saved, and not others. But we cannot know why God makes the choices He has made. God actually NEVER casts away His people whom He foreknew before they were born, but not all are His people are they. God made that decision before time began.
Romans 11
I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. [a]But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:
“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”
9 And David says:
“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”
No one is born a sinner, not Jesus, not you, not me, not anyone else. The sinner is one who has sinned and has not been regenerated.
Logikos
Active Member
I do not understand what you could possibly mean by this!
What do the following passages mean?
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;
Ezekiel 18:4 “Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die.
5 But if a man is just
And does what is lawful and right;....
....9 If he has walked in My statutes
And kept My judgments faithfully—
He is just;
He shall surely live!”
Says the Lord God.
Please, by all means, quote as much of the surrounding passages as you like to get the context or whatever it is you feel is necessary in order to reconcile what these passages say with even one single syllable of the above quoted post.
Logikos
Active Member
I already said that, didn't I? Did you even bother to read my post?
The Calvinist doctrine of regeneration is complete stupidity and is specifically predicated upon not only the doctrine of original sin but of the equally asinine doctrine of total depravity (which is just the Calvinist's supped up version of original sin, by the way).
In short, your comment is basically totally unresponsive to my post!
Does everyone around here just ignore what everyone says to them or what? Is this what feels to you like a substantive and engaging discussion? You don't have to be convinced but please don't waste my time by being boring! Say something worth saying or just keep it to yourself. Challenge yourself! Actually spend more than thirty seconds and maybe even think through what someone has said before posting your waste of time one liners! Be interesting! Is that too much to ask?
Don't go quoting theology sprung from the LAW of Moses please... are you in the Old Covenant relationship with God???
And how did that work out for those people??? Well God was displeased with them, and their 'bones fell in the wilderness', God swore in His wrath they would never enter HIS REST...
The OC is gone and the NC is here and they are not at all the same.
In the OC and the law, you had to do works of the law and follow the commandments perfectly or you were quilty of the whole law and UNDER A CURSE. Much of the NT letters warn us about those who try to keep the law and force others to do that also. They are false teachers.
Is that the kind of life you want to have? And everyone else too?
From a theological point of view no human being is born a sinner. Man does not inherit Adam's sin or guilt but the consequence of that sin which was death, dust to dust. What man inherits is mortality. Able to die. Rom 5:12 attest to this fact. Christ assumed this same human nature that we have. If we were born sinners, Christ would not have been able to assume our human nature.
When you read I Cor 15:46 you have the entire explanation of the confluence of Adam and Christ. You have the first Adam and the Second Adam. Adam sinned thus the relationship between God and man was broken (spiritual separation), the condemnation of this sin was death (physical) Gen 3:19. Christ as the Second Adam reversed the first Adam.
Christ was crucified, died and was risen physically or natural and because of the restoration of our physical human nature, man can again be in union, a relationship with God with eternal consequences. (spiritual)
The summation of this comparison is given in I Cor 15:21-22. As in Adam all die (physically) so also in Christ shall all be made alive. This is reemphasized in I Cor 15:53-54 Where all men will be raised from the dead and be made immortal and incorruptible.
When did the New Covenant begin? It began with Christ's blood, his death and resurrection.
All that came before was of the Old Covenant
If you want to learn about God's covenant TODAY with men, you have to read and believe the New Testament, especially the apostle's doctrines that teach us about the New Covenant. You will find no teaching from them promoting Ezekiel or Moses and the commandments, regulations and ordinances of the Law of Moses as determinations for who lives with eternal life and who dies in hell fire.
Luke 22:19-21 New King James Version
19 And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”
20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.
21 But behold, the hand of My betrayer is with Me on the table.
1 Corinthians 15
New King James Version
The Risen Christ, Faith’s Reality
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by [a]Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.
All that came before was of the Old Covenant
If you want to learn about God's covenant TODAY with men, you have to read and believe the New Testament, especially the apostle's doctrines that teach us about the New Covenant. You will find no teaching from them promoting Ezekiel or Moses and the commandments, regulations and ordinances of the Law of Moses as determinations for who lives with eternal life and who dies in hell fire.
Luke 22:19-21 New King James Version
19 And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”
20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.
21 But behold, the hand of My betrayer is with Me on the table.
1 Corinthians 15
New King James Version
The Risen Christ, Faith’s Reality
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by [a]Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.
If I were a Calvinist, why would I care that someone else was not? If I weren't a Calvinist, why would I care that someone else was? Of what consequence would this be to my own spirituality? Of what consequence would it be to the gospel message? I just don't see the basis of the emotion - and venom - that is invested in this issue. In the "multi-view" books that are a mainstay of my Christian library, I have read entirely respectful discussions and debates between strict TULIP Calvinist scholars, less-strict Calvinist scholars and entirely non-Calvinist scholars without anyone becoming unhinged or suggesting anyone else's position was demonic or anything like it. I can only conclude that those who invest so much emotion and venom in this issue are uncertain about their own position and feeling very threatened.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Are we blind . IF you were blind you would have no sin but SINCE YE SAY WE SEE ...........your sin remains .
Those who deny JESUS IS THE CHRIST are the blind , who though they claim to see , that lead
the blind into the ditch from which death and perditoin awaits .
I agree with some, but not all of that. I agree that we are not born sinners. When Adam sinned he broke the relationship between God and Adam; he did not break the relationship between God and men. When each of us sinned, we broke that relationship. When we believe that relationship begins to heal.
The condemnation due to Adam's sin was spiritual death, not physical death. Physical death was in integral part of creation. To offset that, God placed the Tree of Life in the garden. So long as Adam was able to eat of the fruit of that tree, he would not die. That is the reason God kicked him out of the garden (Gen 3:22).
I could take issue with your view of 1 Corinthians 15:53-54. but I won't address that here.
"Wherefore as by one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinner" Romans 5:22.
"Therefore, as by one man's disobedience (Adam) many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one (Christ) shall many be made righteous" Romans 5:19.
Logikos
Active Member
Don't go crazy on me, Scott!
You're never going to find anyone more on board with the gospel of grace than me. Do please try to stay on the same page as those who are directly engaged in the discussion.
Logikos
Active Member
Why does everyone around here even bother to quote my posts if they aren't going to respond to the things I've said and just use my post as an excuse to post a contrary position that doesn't address a single syllable of what I've said or why I said it?
Precisely.
I don't think you've thought that through. I seems you're just stating something you've heard and chose to believe.
How would that work? By what standard of justice, or by whatever other means you might propose, would the death of a single human being undo the broken relationship between God and every single person that has ever existed or that will ever exist?
Why do you add "physically" to the scripture? I am not physically identified in Christ but spiritually. It is in the heavenly places wherein I am identified, not the worldly.
This much is not in dispute but if your position as communicated in the rest of your post is correct, then the virgin birth of Christ was superfluous as best, having served no purpose.
Logikos
Active Member
Change the subject much?
That isn't what he said. He said the GOD blinds some and gives sight to others.
I'd bet dollars to donuts that if pressed, we'd find out that you agree with him.
Then do not quote from Ezekiel as a scriptural defense which is about doing right and obeying the commandments as the way to life.
You must believe what Paul writes when he is teaching about God blinding people as this is also backed up in John 12, that is at least two scriptural witnesses.
There are plenty of Christians who do not believe God blinds people to the gospel of Christ because they have been taught God is not like that. So, when you tell them He does do that, they think it an evil thing. They will tell me why would God do such a thing when He wants people to believe in Christ, and they throw it all out the window.... and they speak evil of God in the things they do not understand.
John 12 God does this lest they turn and have their sins forgiven them. So obviously God had no desire to save them, or they He would not have blinded and hardened them against the gospel of Christ.
It all gets back to the truth that God chooses to whom He will have mercy and compassion towards and not others. That is His will and purpose playing out in this world. Believe it or not. I would prefer people to believe what God says, and God says different things to different people, some He does not say anything at all except by the things He has made, (Romans 1) many God does not speak to or teach them to come to Christ, as John 6 says all He teaches and have heard from the Father come to Christ.
Who Has Believed Our Report?
37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”
41 These things Isaiah said [f]when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.
Logikos
Active Member
Logikos
Active Member
So you are one of them that do not believe God blinds some and gives sight to others??
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