Will the real "Antichrist" please stand up?

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shturt678

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Floyd said:
You are welcome Jack.
You may also be interested in Revelation generally, as in most churches it is not given space.
www.revelationsmessage.co.uk

Floyd.
Thank you again for your response!

I not only had a chance to go over "Millennial Purpose" & <revelationsmessage>, but enjoyed. I'm not known for running with the majority or secure in the crowd mentality, however I do hold with the majority on the planet's today's belief regarding the "Amillennial view" where I personally believe that we are at the bitter end of the "Millennial" (Rev.20:2) with the personal loosing of Satan (Rev.20:7) at any moment. The reign of the Antichrist's power and propaganda ("Antichrist" - IIThess.2:4) has pretty much played itself out where too many great Christians project this off to some future era?

Old Jack's view
 

Floyd

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Feb 28, 2014
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shturt678 said:
Thank you again for your response!

I not only had a chance to go over "Millennial Purpose" & <revelationsmessage>, but enjoyed. I'm not known for running with the majority or secure in the crowd mentality, however I do hold with the majority on the planet's today's belief regarding the "Amillennial view" where I personally believe that we are at the bitter end of the "Millennial" (Rev.20:2) with the personal loosing of Satan (Rev.20:7) at any moment. The reign of the Antichrist's power and propaganda ("Antichrist" - IIThess.2:4) has pretty much played itself out where too many great Christians project this off to some future era?

Old Jack's view
That was fast reading Jack!

As you know there are many views regarding the timing of the "Rapture", but one thing to me makes sense is that Christ Jesus' Body "is not destined for wrath"!

This following Paper has a description of a few views, which you probably already know. ESCHATOLOGY (Separate study)

I have to disagree with you re. Satan's imminent release; as IMO he has not yet been bound!

Floyd.
 

shturt678

New Member
Feb 9, 2013
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Floyd said:
That was fast reading Jack!

As you know there are many views regarding the timing of the "Rapture", but one thing to me makes sense is that Christ Jesus' Body "is not destined for wrath"!

This following Paper has a description of a few views, which you probably already know. ESCHATOLOGY (Separate study)

I have to disagree with you re. Satan's imminent release; as IMO he has not yet been bound!

Floyd.
Thank you again for your response.

Actually was pretty much on the slow side due to eyes and age thing, however always have been an avid student of Revelation, and the former works was familiar ground.

As a new guy on the block, I normally would tread more lightly, however for some reason will bring the other foot down sooner than I normally would: Rev.20:2 issue dealing whether Satan was or wasn't personally bound at the Cross?

The binding of Satan (Rev.20:2) means that he shall personally not prevent the heralding fo the gospel to all the nations. As you know once the nations were without this heralding, all were under the personal deception of Satan. One nation alone had the Word, correct?

Then Christ came (Rev.12:6), ie, Satan forced to work through the Antichristian seduction and propaganda due to Lk.11:21, 22 (Cross) & Rev.12:7, etc. construed with Rev.20:2, etc.

Old Jack's opinion, ie, holds to the non-allegorical "Historist View"

Thank you again Floyd
shturt678 said:
Thank you again for your response.

Actually was pretty much on the slow side due to eyes and age thing, however always have been an avid student of Revelation, and the former works was familiar ground.

As a new guy on the block, I normally would tread more lightly, however for some reason will bring the other foot down sooner than I normally would: Rev.20:2 issue dealing whether Satan was or wasn't personally bound at the Cross?

The binding of Satan (Rev.20:2) means that he shall personally not prevent the heralding fo the gospel to all the nations. As you know once the nations were without this heralding, all were under the personal deception of Satan. One nation alone had the Word, correct?

Then Christ came (Rev.12:6), ie, Satan forced to work through the Antichristian seduction and propaganda due to Lk.11:21, 22 (Cross) & Rev.12:7, etc. construed with Rev.20:2, etc.

Old Jack's opinion, ie, holds to the non-allegorical "Historist View"

Thank you again Floyd
Only a head's up

The 'man,' that is, the 'sequence of men' is the Antichrist in IIThess.2:3, is at the apostasy's head, however doesn't actually come to indwell persons (IIThess.2:4 - "sanctuary"). His authority, power, and propaganda actually comes in to dwell within where the physical Antichrist is at it head ergo the Antichrist reveals himself as the Antichrist by this pagan act of seating himself in the true God's "Sanctuary" (naos), and not "temple" (ieron) per our versions, pawning himself off as our Lord Jesus Christ - not forever good!

Old Jack's view
 

Floyd

Active Member
Feb 28, 2014
937
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shturt678 said:
Thank you again for your response.

Actually was pretty much on the slow side due to eyes and age thing, however always have been an avid student of Revelation, and the former works was familiar ground.

As a new guy on the block, I normally would tread more lightly, however for some reason will bring the other foot down sooner than I normally would: Rev.20:2 issue dealing whether Satan was or wasn't personally bound at the Cross?

The binding of Satan (Rev.20:2) means that he shall personally not prevent the heralding fo the gospel to all the nations. As you know once the nations were without this heralding, all were under the personal deception of Satan. One nation alone had the Word, correct?

Then Christ came (Rev.12:6), ie, Satan forced to work through the Antichristian seduction and propaganda due to Lk.11:21, 22 (Cross) & Rev.12:7, etc. construed with Rev.20:2, etc.

Old Jack's opinion, ie, holds to the non-allegorical "Historist View"

Thank you again Floyd

Only a head's up

The 'man,' that is, the 'sequence of men' is the Antichrist in IIThess.2:3, is at the apostasy's head, however doesn't actually come to indwell persons (IIThess.2:4 - "sanctuary"). His authority, power, and propaganda actually comes in to dwell within where the physical Antichrist is at it head ergo the Antichrist reveals himself as the Antichrist by this pagan act of seating himself in the true God's "Sanctuary" (naos), and not "temple" (ieron) per our versions, pawning himself off as our Lord Jesus Christ - not forever good!

Old Jack's view
From "Old Jack":

As a new guy on the block, I normally would tread more lightly, however for some reason will bring the other foot down sooner than I normally would: Rev.20:2 issue dealing whether Satan was or wasn't personally bound at the Cross?


From Floyd.

Your comment here Jack, I do not understand, as v3 states that Satan is bound at the beginning of the 1000yrs?
Regarding the cross comment; as you know Jesus stated "it is finished" just before He surrendered His Spirit to the Father. That statement refers IMO to the fact of His great sacrifice for the sin of the world being completed, in our stead! He being the substitute "propitiation" for all who "will" be washed in His blood sacrifice; the "once for all" condition of his Sacrifice! (Jhn.3:16).

Regarding your comment re the Anti-Christ indwelling people; I have never felt that is the case.
That is the domain of Satan's evil spirits (demons).
May I ask where you have picked up this type of teaching?

I do recommend a careful read of www.revelationsmessage.co.uk as none of what you say is there!
As the foreword states, that work is only a study guide, and not intended to dogmatically imply absolute accuracy; but intended to be studied with the Bible open at the side. As per Rev.1:3, blessings will follow sincere study of Revelation from a good translation of the Bible.

Regarding your comment re. Rev.12:6; this does not refer to Christ?

Floyd.
 

shturt678

New Member
Feb 9, 2013
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Floyd said:
From "Old Jack":

As a new guy on the block, I normally would tread more lightly, however for some reason will bring the other foot down sooner than I normally would: Rev.20:2 issue dealing whether Satan was or wasn't personally bound at the Cross?


From Floyd.

Your comment here Jack, I do not understand, as v3 states that Satan is bound at the beginning of the 1000yrs?
Regarding the cross comment; as you know Jesus stated "it is finished" just before He surrendered His Spirit to the Father. That statement refers IMO to the fact of His great sacrifice for the sin of the world being completed, in our stead! He being the substitute "propitiation" for all who "will" be washed in His blood sacrifice; the "once for all" condition of his Sacrifice! (Jhn.3:16).

Regarding your comment re the Anti-Christ indwelling people; I have never felt that is the case.
That is the domain of Satan's evil spirits (demons).
May I ask where you have picked up this type of teaching?

I do recommend a careful read of www.revelationsmessage.co.uk as none of what you say is there!
As the foreword states, that work is only a study guide, and not intended to dogmatically imply absolute accuracy; but intended to be studied with the Bible open at the side. As per Rev.1:3, blessings will follow sincere study of Revelation from a good translation of the Bible.

Regarding your comment re. Rev.12:6; this does not refer to Christ?

Floyd.
Thank you again for your response, that is, normally when I bring forth Martin Chemnitz' (1560 or so) and other's works in High German (translated) till about 1918 or so, others have not been as gracious as you were with their responses - a litotes at that.

Am very familiar with <revelationsmessage>, however has been awhile, that is, we will have to agree to disagree being a very conservative, confessional evangelical Amillennialist. Again, not saying the works that I bring forth are valid interpretations, that is, just another more conservative Amill. view.

I would like to touch upon Rev.12:5-6 after stating a good litmus test for a valid Bible translation regarding Revelation is at Rev.11:1, "Sanctuary" due to all places in the N.T. that renders naos, then one grammatically and contextually needs to render "Sanctuary," and not ieron "Temple" as too many Bible translations unfortunately do?

Rev.12;5, 6, "And she gave birth to a son......And snatched away was the child" Long ago, I didn't find an issue with this being Christ due to a long array of commentators regarded this vision as a reference to the birth of Christ. Unfortunately one of my main O.T. Theologians, ie, Mr. Delitzsch missed this regarding "who is about to shepherd the heathen with an iron rod." which is taken from Ps.2:9.

Thank you again Floyd,

Old Jack
 

Floyd

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Feb 28, 2014
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Jack:
This a small extract from Chp.11;1 of revelationsmessage:

[SIZE=12pt]CHAPTER 11[/SIZE]


[SIZE=14pt]NOTE: Here we see the claim for ownership and control of the most Holy and Sacred place in the world; at the Jerusalem Temple site. As is seen in these verses the 'naos' is the subject of measurement and reclaim by Jehovah God. This indicates the importance of His dwelling place for the future Temple (Ezk.), which follows after the Temple of Anti-Christ.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]This apparently small beginning is a pivotal moment in the change over from 'man's' rule on earth' (Satan,) to that of Jehovah Zebaoth; and isolates this especially Holy spot of land from the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]3½[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] years of Anti-Christ rampage on the Jewish population in Jerusalem.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]So we see the start of the physical takeover of the world by Jehovah Zebaoth, and prophesied in many places in the Bible, which 'begins at Jerusalem' (Isa. 31:4-9, 37:5, Zech. 2, etc.), and its most Sacred place![/SIZE]


[SIZE=14pt]V.1[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And there was given me a (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]reed [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]like to a (b)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]sceptre: [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] the (c)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]angel[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]said, "Rise, and measure the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Temple (naos) of God, and the alter, and them that worship therein."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"Reed;"[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] the measuring "reed," = 6 cubits. The "full reed," = six "great" cubits. The great cubit is "one cubit + one hand breath." 6 hand breadths = one standard cubit, the great cubit = 7 handbreadths. The full reed on the basis of 6 x 7 x 3.575" = thereabouts 12.5' (or 12'6" approx.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](b)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] "Sceptre;"[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] the AV says rod, which is diminishing. Str. No. 4464 gives rod, staff etc., but also royal sceptre etc. The giver denotes the difference. Here, the giver is Divine, so the meaning must be a measuring rod which has Divine Power and Authority, as a Divinely Ordained Sceptre! The area to be measured is also unassailable and protected, and cannot be contested by Satan![/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](c)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] The order is to measure the "naos," (Grk.) which means [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]the holy place, or holy dwelling place,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] or simply "to dwell" (Str. No. 3485.) The AV's use of the single word "Temple" also diminishes, as the whole complete building and area will be the "Sanctuary," (App. 88,) of which only a small part is[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]being marked out, claimed, and protected by Jehovah Zebaoth, at this stage. Also measured for protection will be the alter, "and them that worship therein."[/SIZE]



[SIZE=12pt]Regarding your comment re. Rev. 12:5-6:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]V.5[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]And (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]she [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]brought forth (b)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]a son, a male[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], (c)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]who[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] is about to (d)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]rule[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] all the nations with an iron staff: (e)and her child was caught away unto God, and to His throne.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"She," [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](see V.1) the nation of Israel, of the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](b) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"A son, a male;" [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]the original Greek has these empathic words. It is emphasised; there is no mistaking [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]the gender[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] of the child (male,) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]which has important implications for the Satanically inspired workings worldwide, attempting the reversal of the Almighty's order in creation and design and purpose,[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]bringing the female to the fore "to take the male position." [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]This child is The Christ of V.4, (see note.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](c) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"Who is about;" i.e. about to start His rule. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]The Greek gives this explicit meaning, whereas the Authorised uses the word "was," which diminishes the importance and imminence of what is about to take place, and was so translated to conform to church of England and Roman[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]teaching. The AV also with the use of "was," implies past tense, or failure, which is not the case.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](d) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"Rule all the nations with an iron staff;" [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Christ to rule with an iron staff. The fact is all the nations on earth will be thus ruled. The "iron staff," shows clearly that it will be very firm, fair, and just. In fact justice [/SIZE]will be redefined (or returned to its original meaning) from the present humanly [SIZE=12pt]and Satanically conspired mess of compromise, vested interest, cowardice and evil intent, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]to the absolute Jehovah / Christ standard,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] which will usher onto the earth the peace and security which mankind of goodwill has always desired. At the present time, the fallen state of mankind, aided and enforced by Satan and his demons is bringing complete ruin on the earth. In the yet future state of this verse, Satan and demons will be consigned to 1000 years of imprisonment in the bottomless pit (Zech. 13:2,) (Rev. 20:1-3.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](e) See 4(c) above.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]V.6[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]And (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]the woman[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] fled into the wilderness, where she has a (b)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]place prepared of God,[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] that (c)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days (1260.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"Woman;"[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] i.e. Israel (as above.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](b) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"Place prepared of God;" [/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]this statement also mitigates against those that teach that the "child," of V.2 is Israel; as here, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]this uniquely prepared refuge is for the fleeing Israel, (Matt. 24:15-22.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](c) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"They;" [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] maybe spiritual servants of Jehovah Zebaoth on earth, or human beings, who feed (sustain) this remnant for exactly 3½ Jewish years (i.e. 360 days = 1 Jewish year.) If human beings, they may be some of[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] those referred to by Christ, when He judges the nations (Matt. 25:32-46) at the beginning of Millennial. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]The Almighty is here again demonstrating His will to sustain His people, as He did in the wanderings of Israel for 40 years, prior to entering the Promised Land! [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]This period corresponds[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]with that of the ministry of the "two witnesses,"[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]and also our Lord warned the "lost sheep," to flee to this area (wilderness) (Matt. 24:15-22.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Floyd.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
 

shturt678

New Member
Feb 9, 2013
970
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South Point, Hawaii (Big Island)
Floyd said:
Jack:
This a small extract from Chp.11;1 of revelationsmessage:

[SIZE=12pt]CHAPTER 11[/SIZE]


[SIZE=14pt]NOTE: Here we see the claim for ownership and control of the most Holy and Sacred place in the world; at the Jerusalem Temple site. As is seen in these verses the 'naos' is the subject of measurement and reclaim by Jehovah God. This indicates the importance of His dwelling place for the future Temple (Ezk.), which follows after the Temple of Anti-Christ.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]This apparently small beginning is a pivotal moment in the change over from 'man's' rule on earth' (Satan,) to that of Jehovah Zebaoth; and isolates this especially Holy spot of land from the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]3½[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] years of Anti-Christ rampage on the Jewish population in Jerusalem.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]So we see the start of the physical takeover of the world by Jehovah Zebaoth, and prophesied in many places in the Bible, which 'begins at Jerusalem' (Isa. 31:4-9, 37:5, Zech. 2, etc.), and its most Sacred place![/SIZE]


[SIZE=14pt]V.1[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And there was given me a (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]reed [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]like to a ( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]sceptre: [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] the (c)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]angel[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]said, "Rise, and measure the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Temple (naos) of God, and the alter, and them that worship therein."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"Reed;"[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] the measuring "reed," = 6 cubits. The "full reed," = six "great" cubits. The great cubit is "one cubit + one hand breath." 6 hand breadths = one standard cubit, the great cubit = 7 handbreadths. The full reed on the basis of 6 x 7 x 3.575" = thereabouts 12.5' (or 12'6" approx.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]( B)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] "Sceptre;"[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] the AV says rod, which is diminishing. Str. No. 4464 gives rod, staff etc., but also royal sceptre etc. The giver denotes the difference. Here, the giver is Divine, so the meaning must be a measuring rod which has Divine Power and Authority, as a Divinely Ordained Sceptre! The area to be measured is also unassailable and protected, and cannot be contested by Satan![/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](c)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] The order is to measure the "naos," (Grk.) which means [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]the holy place, or holy dwelling place,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] or simply "to dwell" (Str. No. 3485.) The AV's use of the single word "Temple" also diminishes, as the whole complete building and area will be the "Sanctuary," (App. 88,) of which only a small part is[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]being marked out, claimed, and protected by Jehovah Zebaoth, at this stage. Also measured for protection will be the alter, "and them that worship therein."[/SIZE]



[SIZE=12pt]Regarding your comment re. Rev. 12:5-6:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]V.5[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]And (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]she [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]brought forth ( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]a son, a male[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], (c)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]who[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] is about to (d)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]rule[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] all the nations with an iron staff: (e)and her child was caught away unto God, and to His throne.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"She," [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](see V.1) the nation of Israel, of the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]( B) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"A son, a male;" [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]the original Greek has these empathic words. It is emphasised; there is no mistaking [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]the gender[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] of the child (male,) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]which has important implications for the Satanically inspired workings worldwide, attempting the reversal of the Almighty's order in creation and design and purpose,[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]bringing the female to the fore "to take the male position." [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]This child is The Christ of V.4, (see note.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](c) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"Who is about;" i.e. about to start His rule. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]The Greek gives this explicit meaning, whereas the Authorised uses the word "was," which diminishes the importance and imminence of what is about to take place, and was so translated to conform to church of England and Roman[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]teaching. The AV also with the use of "was," implies past tense, or failure, which is not the case.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](d) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"Rule all the nations with an iron staff;" [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Christ to rule with an iron staff. The fact is all the nations on earth will be thus ruled. The "iron staff," shows clearly that it will be very firm, fair, and just. In fact justice [/SIZE]will be redefined (or returned to its original meaning) from the present humanly [SIZE=12pt]and Satanically conspired mess of compromise, vested interest, cowardice and evil intent, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]to the absolute Jehovah / Christ standard,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] which will usher onto the earth the peace and security which mankind of goodwill has always desired. At the present time, the fallen state of mankind, aided and enforced by Satan and his demons is bringing complete ruin on the earth. In the yet future state of this verse, Satan and demons will be consigned to 1000 years of imprisonment in the bottomless pit (Zech. 13:2,) (Rev. 20:1-3.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](e) See 4(c) above.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]V.6[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]And (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]the woman[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] fled into the wilderness, where she has a ( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]place prepared of God,[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] that (c)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days (1260.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"Woman;"[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] i.e. Israel (as above.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]( B) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"Place prepared of God;" [/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]this statement also mitigates against those that teach that the "child," of V.2 is Israel; as here, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]this uniquely prepared refuge is for the fleeing Israel, (Matt. 24:15-22.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](c) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"They;" [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] maybe spiritual servants of Jehovah Zebaoth on earth, or human beings, who feed (sustain) this remnant for exactly 3½ Jewish years (i.e. 360 days = 1 Jewish year.) If human beings, they may be some of[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] those referred to by Christ, when He judges the nations (Matt. 25:32-46) at the beginning of Millennial. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]The Almighty is here again demonstrating His will to sustain His people, as He did in the wanderings of Israel for 40 years, prior to entering the Promised Land! [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]This period corresponds[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]with that of the ministry of the "two witnesses,"[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]and also our Lord warned the "lost sheep," to flee to this area (wilderness) (Matt. 24:15-22.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Floyd.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
Thank you again for your response

Premise #1: All the passages in the N.T. that have naos need to be grammatically and contextually rendered "Sanctuary," and not "temple," ie, especially Rev.11:1 due to the import of this passage - "Sanctuary." naos is composed of the Holy Place and Most Holy Place, ie, the little building in the center of the temple (ieron), ie, The temple (ieron) consists of also the four courtyards, stairs, gates, and etc. plus the naos of course - considered a public place, however not public was the "Sanctuary."

Premise #2: Rev.11:1, "...Up and measure the Sanctuary of God and the alter and those worshipping in connection with it!" My personal rendition following my trusty ol' inferior Interlinear. Go to premise #3.

Premise #3: John was to measure the Church then and there, and it's to be continued to be measured till the "1" Return of our Lord Christ Jesus my brother Floyd. This "reed" must symbolize the Word or gospel in its function of determining who is in the Church and who is outside of its bounds, ie, then, till the end of time.

Appreciate all your work Floyd, ie, thank you again.

Hey, great! We agree to agree with the Messiah, ie, the Christ at Rev.12:5, ie, good job with the emphasis on "And she gave birth to a son," due to the reversal of the subject and the verb.

Thank you again,

Old Jack

btw the 1,000 years began at the Cross and ends at Rev.20:7 where we are nearing the end fo the 1,000.
 

Floyd

Active Member
Feb 28, 2014
937
30
28
shturt678 said:
Thank you again for your response

Premise #1: All the passages in the N.T. that have naos need to be grammatically and contextually rendered "Sanctuary," and not "temple," ie, especially Rev.11:1 due to the import of this passage - "Sanctuary." naos is composed of the Holy Place and Most Holy Place, ie, the little building in the center of the temple (ieron), ie, The temple (ieron) consists of also the four courtyards, stairs, gates, and etc. plus the naos of course - considered a public place, however not public was the "Sanctuary."

Premise #2: Rev.11:1, "...Up and measure the Sanctuary of God and the alter and those worshipping in connection with it!" My personal rendition following my trusty ol' inferior Interlinear. Go to premise #3.

Premise #3: John was to measure the Church then and there, and it's to be continued to be measured till the "1" Return of our Lord Christ Jesus my brother Floyd. This "reed" must symbolize the Word or gospel in its function of determining who is in the Church and who is outside of its bounds, ie, then, till the end of time.

Appreciate all your work Floyd, ie, thank you again.

Hey, great! We agree to agree with the Messiah, ie, the Christ at Rev.12:5, ie, good job with the emphasis on "And she gave birth to a son," due to the reversal of the subject and the verb.

Thank you again,

Old Jack

btw the 1,000 years began at the Cross and ends at Rev.20:7 where we are nearing the end fo the 1,000.
I obviously disagree with you Jack re. the "church" comment; and on your understanding of the position of the 1000 years.
Floyd.
 
B

brakelite

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Every reformer, from the 12th to the 18th century, from Wycliffe to Luther, from Calvin to Cranmer, and dozens in between, pointed their collective fingers at Rome and proclaimed the Roman papacy as the Antichrist of prophetic scripture. Were they right? If one was to give any credence to modern Christianitys' view, the reformation was a major mistake, and the reformers all religious radicals deceived and influenced by the times in which they lived. If however they were right, and the Roman Catholic Church is indeed the Antichrist as they claimed, then why do so few proclaim it today? If however they were wrong which it seems the majority of Christendom now contend, then why don’t we all forsake the title “protestant” (who’s protesting today anyway?) and return to Rome?
 

shturt678

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brakelite said:
Every reformer, from the 12th to the 18th century, from Wycliffe to Luther, from Calvin to Cranmer, and dozens in between, pointed their collective fingers at Rome and proclaimed the Roman papacy as the Antichrist of prophetic scripture. Were they right? If one was to give any credence to modern Christianitys' view, the reformation was a major mistake, and the reformers all religious radicals deceived and influenced by the times in which they lived. If however they were right, and the Roman Catholic Church is indeed the Antichrist as they claimed, then why do so few proclaim it today? If however they were wrong which it seems the majority of Christendom now contend, then why don’t we all forsake the title “protestant” (who’s protesting today anyway?) and return to Rome?
Thank you for caring!

Most Christians are complacent and indifferent due to their 'hypergrace' of today, and to even suggest the RCC camp, along with the very very powerful entities secretly behind the papacy, are the Antichrist could open Pandoras's box. The RCC camp then could easily present evidence where us Protestants are under the Antichrist. btw one will quickly find out one's own Protestant breathren will be the very ones that come after the one opening the 'box.'

Old Jack, leaving the 'box' closed, ie, has more to do with Chruch economics (land and money)
 

Floyd

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From Brakelite:
Every reformer, from the 12th to the 18th century, from Wycliffe to Luther, from Calvin to Cranmer, and dozens in between, pointed their collective fingers at Rome and proclaimed the Roman papacy as the Antichrist of prophetic scripture. Were they right? If one was to give any credence to modern Christianitys' view, the reformation was a major mistake, and the reformers all religious radicals deceived and influenced by the times in which they lived. If however they were right, and the Roman Catholic Church is indeed the Antichrist as they claimed, then why do so few proclaim it today? If however they were wrong which it seems the majority of Christendom now contend, then why don’t we all forsake the title “protestant” (who’s protesting today anyway?) and return to Rome?


IMO, Rome is not the Anti-Christ.
They are a corrupted version of the Truth of Christ's Salvation; used for political power reasons at the formation of the "Holy Roman Empire", by Constantine and his mother Helena.
See:

[SIZE=14pt]What is not generally known, is that ancient Rome, under its various Caesars, adopted the religions of the nations they conquered, to placate the populous in their new condition of "conquered nation." Many of the pagan gods that were “adopted,” became “saints” in the new universal Roman religion! This was a very successful policy, and was later merged into the "Christian" empire under Constantine / Helena. This is one of the origins of "mother and child" worship, as the Roman pagans rebelled, when Isis and her child Horus were to be excluded! Constantine relented, and the result is Mary worship today, and attributing to her, what should be attributed to Christ alone! At the same time that Constantine and his mother formed “The holy Roman Empire," all debate on the various disputes and views that were current in Christian circles, was stifled, on pain of death! The healthy debate did not continue until Martin Luther's brave stand! This is one of the reasons why the Roman church does not encourage Roman Catholics to read the Bible unsupervised, they only allow the "official" view to be expressed! It is also the reason for many of the other official teachings, many of which originate in ancient Babylon! After the formation of Constantine's Roman church, and the instigation of "Popery," there followed the various "Councils," and "Bulls," which give the rules for belief in the Roman Church, which Catholics today must follow! These corruptions had tainted the True message for approx.1200 years, and until the bravery of Martin Luther and others, held sway![/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Also: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] Why the Roman Catholic church is not of God Almighty: (Separate study) [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt] Biblical Truth denied by Roman Church; (Times report 5/10/05 )[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]The bravery of Luther, and many others under torture by the Roman Church Inquisition, must never be forgotten; to return to the Roman Church would be returning to pagan worship, as many of their teachings were adopted from Babylon![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The Roman Church is currently working as head of the worldwide Ecumenical Movement, to regain the power it has lost since the inquisition, and to lead this movement into its fold as the future Controller of world religions; which will not take place until THE Anti-Christ is prominent on earth![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The formation of the Ecumenical Movement, allows many aberrant religious ideas into its fold, but not the admission of one way of salvation; as defined in Acts 4:12![/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Floyd.[/SIZE]
 

shturt678

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brakelite said:
Every reformer, from the 12th to the 18th century, from Wycliffe to Luther, from Calvin to Cranmer, and dozens in between, pointed their collective fingers at Rome and proclaimed the Roman papacy as the Antichrist of prophetic scripture. Were they right? If one was to give any credence to modern Christianitys' view, the reformation was a major mistake, and the reformers all religious radicals deceived and influenced by the times in which they lived. If however they were right, and the Roman Catholic Church is indeed the Antichrist as they claimed, then why do so few proclaim it today? If however they were wrong which it seems the majority of Christendom now contend, then why don’t we all forsake the title “protestant” (who’s protesting today anyway?) and return to Rome?
Thank you for caring!

My ol' premise #1: All half truths regarding Scritptures that are more difficult to detect by average Christians, and the little children, are the more 'damnable' lies. The damnable lies now in the Protestant Churches (God is still in there, and they are still "Christians), surpass the obvious RCC camp's half truths, exponentially, eg, not picking on you as excellent post by you, a simple litmus test is for anyone to posit a truer rendition of, and interpretation of, IIThess.2:4 is the one I've used for decades? Never hold one's breath on this one, however is still 'topic' on this thread.

Old Jack that agapes those limus tests.
 
B

brakelite

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Hey Jack...in response to your mention of that scripture from Thessalonians, I offer the following from my blog....

The Restrainer, and the Restrained.


Now we beseech you brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him, that ye be not troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of the Lord is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what with-holdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way, and then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: even him whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-10
roman-forum.jpg
And the Dragon gave him his power, his SEAT, and much authority." Revel. 13:2


The above verses are perhaps, alongside Daniel 7 and Revelation 13, the most significant texts in the entire word of God as to revealing the identity of the Antichrist of scripture. When reading Daniel 7 and Revelation 13, and in contemplating the above, the reader cannot help but be impressed with the detail and amount of information given regarding the nature, the thoughts, beliefs and practices of this entity who from the beginnings of the Christian faith to the present time, has shed such a dark forbidding cloud over the true church. In these few short verses the apostle Paul has given his readers a clear and unambiguous signpost pointing directly to the rise of the man of sin, the son perdition. A signpost that he first revealed to the Thessalonian church in person, and reaffirmed in this letter. Bible scholars for centuries have agreed that the reason Paul was less than forthcoming in his letter in naming the ‘restrainer’ directly as he is commonly known, was because there was a very real danger involved in so doing. That danger coming from the restrainer himself, the Roman pagan empire who ruled the then known world at that time, and who, if upon reading this letter and realizing that Paul was here saying that their power was about to be swept away to make way for another, Paul would have been immediately arrested and charged, tried, and executed for sedition. Also, because the Thessalonians already knew who Paul was talking about, it was not necessary for Paul to risk naming Rome again.

Practically all the early commentators and church fathers were unanimous in their belief that Paul was referring to the empire of Rome in general, and to the emperors in particular. Let me provide a few quotes from those early church statesmen from their comments on this matter.

Let me start with Tertullian (160-240 A. D.):
“‘For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder,
until he be taken out of the way.’ What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling
away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its
own ruins)? ‘And then shall be revealed the wicked one.” “On the Resurrection of the
Flesh,” chapter 24; Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. III, p. 563

(Author: There is some debate as to whether the ‘falling away’ referred to here is in reference to the empire, or the church. Some say one, some the other, while some would contend that it can apply equally to both. Either way, Tertullian was certain in his belief that the restrainer was the Roman Empire. That it was Rome itself that inhibited in some way the rise of the antichrist. This was generally accepted throughout the church at that time, and it was common for the church to pray to God that He would keep the Roman power intact in order to keep the antichrist from to coming to power in their time. Interesting also is Tertullian’s reference to the ten kingdoms that would result from the break up of Rome. This is a direct reference to Daniel 7 and the ten horns that would grow from the 4th beast, Rome. The Antichrist, according to Bible scholars, was the 11th horn. Tertullian was using the historicist method of prophetic interpretation, that method which viewed prophecy as an historical unfolding throughout history from the time the prophecy was first given, and culminating at the second coming. This is significant when understanding Paul’s letter, because Paul is clear that the Antichrist would appear as soon as Rome moves aside, and that very same Antichrist would still be there to be judged at the second coming. Not futurist, not preterist, but a historicist approach, just like Tertullian.)

In yet another comment, Tertullian states: “The very end of all things threatening dreadful woes is only retarded by the continued existence of the Roman Empire.”
(“Apology,” chapter 32; Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. III, p. 43).

A little later Lactantius,. in the early fourth century wrote: “The subject itself declares that the fall and ruin of the world will shortly take place; except that while the city of Rome remains, it appears that nothing of this kind is to be feared. But when that capital of the world shall have fallen, and shall have begun to be a street, which the Sibyls say shall come to pass, who can doubt that the end has now arrived to the affairs of men and the whole world? It is that city, that only, which still sustains all things.” (“The Divine Institutes,” book 7, chapter 25; Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. VII, p. 220).

Also early in the fourth century Cyril of Jerusalem (318-386 A. D.)had this to say: “But this aforesaid Antichrist is to come when the times of the Roman Empire shall have been fulfilled, and the end of the world is drawing near. There shall rise up together ten kings of the Romans, reigning in different parts perhaps, but all about the same time; and after those an eleventh, the Antichrist, who by his magical craft shall seize upon the Roman power; and of the kings who reigned before him, ‘three he shall humble,’ and the remaining seven he shall keep in subjection to himself.” (Catechetical Lectures,” section 15, on II Thessalonians 2:4; Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. VII, p. 108 [New York: The Christian Literature Company, 1895]).
(Author: Much could be said about this quote; he also is clearly linking the prophecy of Daniel to the text of Paul’s, agreeing with other eminent writers of his time that out of Rome would evolve ten kings, 3 of whom the antichrist would subdue. When the restrainer, Rome, was to be taken out of the way, and the horns of Daniel 7 arise, the antichrist would be revealed.)
Now I would present the testimony of Ambrose (died in 398): “After the falling or decay of the Roman Empire, Antichrist shall appear.” (Quoted in, Bishop Thomas Newton,
Dissertations on the Prophecies, p. 463)……
….and Chrysostom (died in 407): “When the Roman Empire is taken out of the way, then he [the Antichrist] shall come. And naturally. For as long as the fear of this empire lasts, no one will willingly exalt himself, but when that is dissolved, he will attack the anarchy, and endeavor to seize upon the government both of man and of God.”
Homily IV on 2 Thessalonians 2:6-9,” Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. XIII, p. 389
[New York: Charles Scribner’s and Sons, 1905]…..
…and finally Jerome (died 420): “He that letteth is taken out of the way, and yet we do not realize that Antichrist is near.”
(Letter to Ageruchia, written about 409A. D. Letter 123, section 16; Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. VI, p. 236

author....Jerome’s testimony is interesting. He admits and agrees with other early church fathers of his era that Rome was the restrainer, and had been removed in his (Jerome’s) lifetime. Yet it had not yet been made apparent who the power was that could definitively be called the Antichrist. Why? Because from Jerome’s perspective, he could not see all the signs of the Antichrist’s coming, as they had yet to be revealed in history. The capital of the empire had been removed to Constantinople, and the Gothic barbarian kings* were already well entrenched in ongoing battles and wars to decide who would rule over the territories not long since vacated by Rome, but the three horns to be subdued were still in power. When they were subdued, it would then be known by whose power they were done away, and the identity of Antichrist would be revealed.

I think it would be very helpful if I here provided a quote from the eminent Catholic historian, Cardinal Manning.
“Now the abandonment of Rome was the liberation of the pontiffs. Whatsoever claims to obedience the emperors may have made, and whatsoever compliance the Pontiff may have yielded, the whole previous relation, anomalous, and annulled again and again by the vices and outrages of the emperors, was finally dissolved by a higher power. The providence of God permitted a succession of irruptions, Gothic, Lombard, and Hungarian, to desolate Italy, and to efface from it every remnant of the empire.
The pontiffs found themselves alone, the sole fountains of order, peace, law, and safety. And from the hour of this providential liberation, when, by a divine intervention, the chains fell off from the hands of the successor of St. Peter, as once before from his own, no sovereign has ever reigned in Rome except the Vicar of Jesus Christ.”
(Henry Edward Manning, The Temporal Power of The Vicar of Jesus Christ, Preface, pp. xxviii, xxix. London: Burns and Lambert, 1862).

Manning has clearly given an excellent summary of history which directly correlates with the prophecies of Daniel and Paul. While attributing the fall of Rome to God and the rise of the papacy to Him also, Manning seems oblivious to the fact that he is revealing the perfect fulfillment of the prophecy of Paul and Daniel. That when Rome fell, the ten nations arose, three were subdued, and the ultimate victor was the papacy! It was the papacy itself that the empire of Rome was restraining. It was the papacy that arose after the establishment of the ten horns. It was the papacy that had a major role in the subjugation of the 3 horns because being Arian in belief they were directly opposed to the rule of the pontiffs. It will be the papacy that will still be here at the second coming. Therefore it is the papacy which perfectly fulfils the criteria demanded of it in order to be identified as the Antichrist. And that my friends are precisely the reasons all non-Roman Bible commentators from the time of the 6th century on were almost unanimous in identifying the papacy as the man of sin. The power who entered the church (the temple of God) and by claiming the power to forgive sin, and shut out of heaven whom he will, and claiming universal spiritual and temporal authority over all the earth, thus claiming the prerogatives of God, “opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.”
 

Jun2u

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[SIZE=12pt]Brakelite[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Why is it when people discuss eschatology they almost always look for their answers “out there” that is “in the world” instead of in the Bible [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]The Bible speaks of two enmities which have been at war with each other since the time Satan deceived Eve, Genesis 3:15 reads:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]“And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]This enmity will continue until the last day when Jesus would have vanquished Satan and his followers as depicted in 2 Thessalonians and elsewhere in Scripture.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]2 Th 2:1-12[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]The word “together” is better translated as “to gather.” The “caching up” or “rapture of believers.” We gather to Jesus one by one and not as a group![/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ (second coming) is at hand.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]A warning not to be deceived by any man that the second coming will not come until there is a falling away first (the abomination of desolation) mentioned in Mt. 24[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Who is it that opposes and exalts himself above all that is God, and wants to be worshipped so that he as God sits (rules) in the temple (local congregations) showing himself as God…Satan![/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]2Co 11:13-15: “For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Satan has been working since the beginning, only he (Holy Spirit) will let, until he (Holy Spirit) abandons the local congregations.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]The word “after” is better translated as “against).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. [/SIZE]


[SIZE=12pt]Shtrut678[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Don’t be intimidated by the so called “big boys” who speak eloquently but really speak vain empty words. “Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.” Be happy Jack for the Holy Spirit led you to 2 Thessalonians to witness the Gospel. [/SIZE]


[SIZE=12pt]To God Be The Glory [/SIZE]
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, all.

Boy! When the cat's away,...! This topic is NOT to be about Revelation! In my opinion, Revelation should be the LAST place we go until we have other facts down pat! Just to reiterate and get this thread back on track, ...

It's extremely interesting all the fabrications that have arisen regarding the "Antichrist." Seems that it started when someone thought that the 70th Seven ("Week") of Daniel 9:24-27 should be equated with the "tribulation" of which Yeshua` spoke in the Olivet Discourse. Hence, someone started to say "the seven years of tribulation" and "the seven-year Tribulation," as though the Bible actually called it that!

Let's investigate this critter (colloquialism for "creature") a bit more thoroughly:

The following should be a collection of what we know to be true regarding that person that the Scripture actually calls "the beast" and "the man of sin" or "the man of lawlessness."

First, ironically, this person is never said to be the "Antichrist." That term is for ANYONE who "opposes the Messiah." The Greek word "antichristos" (or its plural "antichristoi") is only found five times in four verses of the New Testament (and NEVER in the OT):

1 John 2:18
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
KJV

1 John 2:22
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
KJV

1 John 4:3
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
KJV

2 John 7
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
KJV


Strong's Dictionary of the Greek Language says this about the word:

NT:500 antichristos (an-tee'-khris-tos); from NT:473 and NT:5547; an opponent of the Messiah:
KJV - antichrist.

NT:473 anti (an-tee'); a primary particle; opposite, i.e. instead or because of (rarely in addition to):
KJV - for, in the room of. Often used in composition to denote contrast, requital, substitution, correspondence, etc.

NT:5547 Christos (khris-tos'); from NT:5548; anointed, i.e. the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus:
KJV - Christ.

NT:5548 chrioo (khree'-o); probably akin to NT:5530 through the idea of contact; to smear or rub with oil, i.e. (by implication) to consecrate to an office or religious service:
KJV - anoint.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


I find it misleading that "christos" is capitalized in its English transliteration. There were many "christoi," just as there are many "antichristoi," and not all of them were in reference to the Son of God. And, I also find it ironic that Strong's doesn't make the connection here between this Greek word and the Hebrew word from which it is translated "mashiayach":

OT:4898 mashiyach (maw-shee'-akh); from OT:4886; anointed; usually a consecrated person (as a king, priest, or saint); specifically, the Messiah:
KJV - anointed, Messiah.

OT:4886 maashach (maw-shakh'); a primitive root; to rub with oil, i.e. to anoint; by implication, to consecrate; also to paint:
KJV - anoint, paint.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


Therefore, one must know what and who is a "messiah" before one can intelligently say what an "antichrist" is.
Then, I said,...

Okay, let's play a little game:

Everyone give me the name of one of the messiahs (the christs).

I'll start: Yeshua` (Jesus). Okay, name another. (And, you can't use the same one someone else has already named.)
To which, Enoch2010 wisely responded,...

Joshua, David, Solomon
And, these are correct answers.

We've been a little side-tracked since then. Let's get back on topic, please.

So, Joshua, David, and Solomon were examples of "mashiachiym" or "christoi." They were indeed "messiahs" or "christs!" As I've said before at other times and in other threads, the term "Messiah" or "Christ" is a TITLE, NOT a NAME! And, since this title is associated with Yeshua`s ancestor David in the Messianic prophecies, then we are discussing the anointing of a KING! Therefore, this title "Messiah" or "Christ" means a "King Apparent," like we have "President Elects!" He is GOD'S Anointed - GOD'S Selected - GOD'S Choice for King!

Thus, an "antichristos" is "one who is opposed to GOD'S Selection for King!" That can come in many ways. All one has to do is deny some PART of that statement, "GOD'S Selection for King," in any number of different ways:

First, one might be so bold as to say that Yeshua` didn't come in the flesh, as 1 John 4:3 and 2 John 7 say.
Second, one might deny that Yeshua` is the Son of God.
Third, one might deny that "King" is referring to the King of Isra'el (David's and Solomon's Isra'el). This is a more subtle way of denial, but it is a denial just the same.
Fourth, one might deny the phrase "FOR King!" Except in a prophetic passage, the Scriptures never refer to Yeshua` (Jesus) as a King! Even when Yeshua` is said to have been "born King of the Jews," a baby is never given the kingship of a country ("What?! Are we meshuggah?!); the phrase simply means that He is DESTINED TO BECOME the King of the Y'hudiym! He has the BIRTHRIGHT to be the "King of the Jews!" He still had to MATURE:

Luke 2:39-40
39 And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.
40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
KJV

Luke 2:52
52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
KJV


Fifth, one might suggest that there IS NO "God's Selection!" That God LOVES EVERYONE THE SAME! Therefore, God loves our brother, Yeshua (Jesus), in the same way He loves us!
Sixth, one might even suggest that there is no "GOD" who could make such a "Selection!"
This is just a sampling (and in no particular order) of some of the errors that could be concocted by the fertile and abstract imaginations of human beings in response to this simple, concrete statement!

Some allow themselves to be too nebulous and vague, suggesting that this "kingship" refers to the ENTIRE UNIVERSE! Some will take it "off-world" entirely and say that this "kingship" refers to another dimension called "Heaven!" Some will make it a personal thing and say that He is "King of our hearts" (not that they truly know what a "heart" is).

Readers, you may not like what I'm about to say, but if you have such an understanding of this statement, then YOU, TOO, might be an "antichristos" as John understood the word!
 

shturt678

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Jun2u said:
Brakelite
[SIZE=12pt]Why is it when people discuss eschatology they almost always look for their answers “out there” that is “in the world” instead of in the Bible [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]The Bible speaks of two enmities which have been at war with each other since the time Satan deceived Eve, Genesis 3:15 reads:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]“And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]This enmity will continue until the last day when Jesus would have vanquished Satan and his followers as depicted in 2 Thessalonians and elsewhere in Scripture.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]2 Th 2:1-12[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]The word “together” is better translated as “to gather.” The “caching up” or “rapture of believers.” We gather to Jesus one by one and not as a group![/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ (second coming) is at hand.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]A warning not to be deceived by any man that the second coming will not come until there is a falling away first (the abomination of desolation) mentioned in Mt. 24[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Who is it that opposes and exalts himself above all that is God, and wants to be worshipped so that he as God sits (rules) in the temple (local congregations) showing himself as God…Satan![/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]2Co 11:13-15: “For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Satan has been working since the beginning, only he (Holy Spirit) will let, until he (Holy Spirit) abandons the local congregations.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]The word “after” is better translated as “against).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. [/SIZE]


[SIZE=12pt]Shtrut678[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Don’t be intimidated by the so called “big boys” who speak eloquently but really speak vain empty words. “Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.” Be happy Jack for the Holy Spirit led you to 2 Thessalonians to witness the Gospel. [/SIZE]


[SIZE=12pt]To God Be The Glory [/SIZE]



[SIZE=12pt]Thank you again for caring![/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Kick-started my Sunday! Thank you again![/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Old Jack 'up and at um' on our Lord's day. [/SIZE]
Retrobyter said:
Shalom, all.

Boy! When the cat's away,...! This topic is NOT to be about Revelation! In my opinion, Revelation should be the LAST place we go until we have other facts down pat! Just to reiterate and get this thread back on track, ...


Then, I said,...


To which, Enoch2010 wisely responded,...


And, these are correct answers.

We've been a little side-tracked since then. Let's get back on topic, please.

So, Joshua, David, and Solomon were examples of "mashiachiym" or "christoi." They were indeed "messiahs" or "christs!" As I've said before at other times and in other threads, the term "Messiah" or "Christ" is a TITLE, NOT a NAME! And, since this title is associated with Yeshua`s ancestor David in the Messianic prophecies, then we are discussing the anointing of a KING! Therefore, this title "Messiah" or "Christ" means a "King Apparent," like we have "President Elects!" He is GOD'S Anointed - GOD'S Selected - GOD'S Choice for King!

Thus, an "antichristos" is "one who is opposed to GOD'S Selection for King!" That can come in many ways. All one has to do is deny some PART of that statement, "GOD'S Selection for King," in any number of different ways:

First, one might be so bold as to say that Yeshua` didn't come in the flesh, as 1 John 4:3 and 2 John 7 say.
Second, one might deny that Yeshua` is the Son of God.
Third, one might deny that "King" is referring to the King of Isra'el (David's and Solomon's Isra'el). This is a more subtle way of denial, but it is a denial just the same.
Fourth, one might deny the phrase "FOR King!" Except in a prophetic passage, the Scriptures never refer to Yeshua` (Jesus) as a King! Even when Yeshua` is said to have been "born King of the Jews," a baby is never given the kingship of a country ("What?! Are we meshuggah?!); the phrase simply means that He is DESTINED TO BECOME the King of the Y'hudiym! He has the BIRTHRIGHT to be the "King of the Jews!" He still had to MATURE:

Luke 2:39-40
39 And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.
40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
KJV

Luke 2:52
52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
KJV


Fifth, one might suggest that there IS NO "God's Selection!" That God LOVES EVERYONE THE SAME! Therefore, God loves our brother, Yeshua (Jesus), in the same way He loves us!
Sixth, one might even suggest that there is no "GOD" who could make such a "Selection!"
This is just a sampling (and in no particular order) of some of the errors that could be concocted by the fertile and abstract imaginations of human beings in response to this simple, concrete statement!

Some allow themselves to be too nebulous and vague, suggesting that this "kingship" refers to the ENTIRE UNIVERSE! Some will take it "off-world" entirely and say that this "kingship" refers to another dimension called "Heaven!" Some will make it a personal thing and say that He is "King of our hearts" (not that they truly know what a "heart" is).

Readers, you may not like what I'm about to say, but if you have such an understanding of this statement, then YOU, TOO, might be an "antichristos" as John understood the word!
Thank you for your work and sharing!

My view of the "Antichrist" is more in line with IIThess.2:4, ie, along with others that feel the same thus nothing new, however has more to do with this "Antichrist" revealing himself as the "Antichrist" by this pagan act of seating himself in the true God's own "Sanctuary," not "Temple" in our renditions - Today! Not projecting this off to some future time.

Old Thess. Jack
 

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Shalom, Jack (aka shturt678).

shturt678 said:
Thank you for your work and sharing!

My view of the "Antichrist" is more in line with IIThess.2:4, ie, along with others that feel the same thus nothing new, however has more to do with this "Antichrist" revealing himself as the "Antichrist" by this pagan act of seating himself in the true God's own "Sanctuary," not "Temple" in our renditions - Today! Not projecting this off to some future time.

Old Thess. Jack
Then you should also know that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is talking about something different than most Christians understand it.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-14
2:1 But in connection with the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah and our gathering together to meet him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be easily shaken in your thinking or anxious because of a spirit or a spoken message or a letter supposedly from us claiming that the Day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way.
For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man who separates himself from Torah has been revealed, the one destined for doom. 4 He will oppose himself to everything that people call a god or make an object of worship; he will put himself above them all, so that he will sit in the Temple of God and proclaim that he himself is God.
5 Don’t you remember that when I was still with you, I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, so that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For already this separating from Torah is at work secretly, but it will be secretly only until he who is restraining is out of the way. 8 Then the one who embodies separation from Torah will be revealed, the one whom the Lord Yeshua will slay with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the glory of his coming.
9 When this man who avoids Torah comes, the Adversary will give him the power to work all kinds of false miracles, signs and wonders. 10 He will enable him to deceive, in all kinds of wicked ways, those who are headed for destruction because they would not receive the love of the truth that could have saved them. 11 This is why God is causing them to go astray, so that they will believe the Lie. 12 The result will be that all who have not believed the truth, but have taken their pleasure in wickedness, will be condemned.
13 But we have to keep thanking God for you always, brothers whom the Lord loves, because God chose you as firstfruits for deliverance by giving you the holiness that has its origin in the Spirit and the faithfulness that has its origin in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our Good News, so that you could have the glory of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah.
CJB


This is a more accurate rendition of this passage because the Greek word translated as "sin" or "lawlessness" is "anomias," a compound of "a-," meaning "without," and "nomos" meaning the "Law," in particular, the "Law of Moses" commonly called the "Torah," consisting of the first five books of the Bible (also called the Pentateuch). Thus, he is a man who will be religious but without the Law! Of whom would this most concern if not the Jews?!

"Naos" means a "DWELLING." And, in context, this is the "DWELLING of God!" It's the Greek way of saying the Hebrew "beeyt Elohiym" which means the "House of God," which every child of Isra'el knew meant the "Temple!"

Since there is currently no Temple, there not only must be one in the future, but it must also be so desecrated by this man who separates himself from the Torah.
 
B

brakelite

Guest
Retrobyter, greetings.
First, I agree that the antichrist is without law. Religious certainly, but I tend toward the belief that rather than being against Christ as many take it, 'antichrist' is more in place of..in the room of, Christ. A king yes, but one who has displaced the true Messiah from His kingly role.

You mentioned that Revelation is the last place to look for such a one. I disagree. Take note of the following scriptures and compare...

Exodus 39:1 ¶ And of the blue, and purple, and scarlet, they made cloths of service, to do service in the holy place, and made the holy garments for Aaron; as the LORD commanded Moses.
2 And he made the ephod of gold, blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen.


Note the colours. Blue, purple, scarlet, gold.

Now read the following....

Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.


Again, note the colours. Scarlet, purple, gold. What's missing? Blue. Why? Whaqt is the significance of the colour blue as it pertains to the sanctuary and the priests thereof?

Numbers 15:38 Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue:
39 And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring:
40 That ye may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy unto your God.



.Retrobyter, further to my post above. I note that you believe, as does much of Christianty, that a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem is essential to fulfil the conditions prior to the second coming of Messiah. You correctly note that in context, temple, as mentioned by Paul in his letter to Thess., means quote: DWELLING of God. I do agree with this, however do not agree that any possible future temple is neccesary as a acondition to fulfil prophecy. No future temple will ever be the dwelling of God. God's dwelling today is in the individual believer, and corporately, the church. Jesus declared to Israel, your house, (not My house or God's house) but your house is left unto you desolate. One may call a future buidling if it ever arises, a temple or sanctuary, but it will always remain desolate, and it will never again be God's dwelling place.
Sorry if this sounds harsh, I understand that many believe this re the temple, but I think it a dangerous error. While waiting for a new temple, they see the antichrist as being far off. Same with the 7 years. Long time away....no urgency. The true antichrist however is already here, and has been in power since the 6th century. He leans over the back fence being the friendly neighbour, all the while ready to gobble you up for dinner. And you are looking to the horizon waiting for a terrifying enemy threatening your life. Watch out...you are about to be run over from behind.