When is a christian NOT a Christian?

Nancy · Jul 14, 2019

"ByGrace" said:
@Stranger @Enoch111 @aspen @bbyrd009 @Episkopos @Hidden In Him @ScottA
@amadeus @APAK @Nancy @Pearl @Butterfly @Soverign Grace @stunnedbygrace @GodsGrace @marks @Not me @justbyfaith
@Grailhunter @farouk

Golly my memory is not good I can't remember everyone!!

Sorry if I forgot your name!

I think that would be way stepping over the boundaries, and dangerously close to rejecting a true bro or sis in Christ...Jmo.

Philip James · Jul 14, 2019

"ByGrace" said:
-------

I was thinking it would be interesting what other Christians here think a Christian is...
AND who is 'allowed' to call themselves that?
....

"He proceeds from the Father and the Son,
and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified."

.....Helen

Hi Helen! Anyone can claim to be a Christian. But IF by their actions they profane the name they bear, they are accountable...

Ss to the Holy Spirit, God cannot be divided... If we glorify the Father, we glorify the Son and the Spirit, if we glorigy the Son, we glorify the Father and the Spirit, if we glorify the Spirit, we glorify the Father and the Son...
They are indivisible... Thus one cannot know the Father and not know the Son... Etc...

Peace to you sister!

Christ IS risen!
Alleluia!

Nancy · Jul 14, 2019

Bobby Jo said:
The real problem seems to be self-perception. There are people in this forum who hadn't been able to RE-slander an individual BECAUSE THEY WERE IN CHURCH!!! (That was the most outlandish thing I'd heard in a LONG time.) It's like that verse "every man is right in his own eyes", so every man thinks he's a Christian, even though he may reject all that GOD, JESUS, and the HOLY SPIRIT are, ... but he's a Christian (capital "C").

And is this Forum, LIARS can slander the TRUTH, but we can't "criticize" the LIARS? So where's the Christianity which Jesus exercised in Matthew 15; and Jesus called Peter SATAN?!? -- Jesus would have been expelled from this Forum for violating THE RULES!!!

Yeah, it's a good thing my hope and salvation rests in Jesus, and not man.

And I'm still chuckling to myself having a capital "C"/small "c" discussion.
Bobby Jo

Hi Bobby Jo,
I do not think that Jesus was rebuking or calling Peter "Satan", I think He simply recognized Satan trying to work through Peter (by tempting Him...?)

Bobby Jo · Jul 14, 2019

JohnPaul said:
Are there Elders or counselors on here that I can talk with privately, that can help me In learning?

I'm not an elder or counselor, but I am knowledgeable on Bible Prophecy topics if that helps!

Come to think of it, I've taught several Adult Sunday School classes; gave a Prophecy sermon from the pulpit; gave two multi-day Bible Prophecy seminars; and some ad-hoc presentations during the noon hour for my co-wokers.

I've even written a book but it's unpublished. However it does provide an instant recollection of specifics with associated footnotes.

Now I typically don't offer my services for free, but Jesus said:

Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.

Bobby Jo

Bobby Jo · Jul 14, 2019

Nancy said:
Hi Bobby Jo,
I do not think that Jesus was rebuking or calling Peter "Satan", I think He simply recognized Satan trying to work through Peter (by tempting Him...?)

I think Peter was a "Christian", and satan may tempt, but does not control what a Christian does. And Jesus called Peter "Satan".

But in either case, if Jesus called anyone "satan" is this Forum, HE would be kicked out. No discussion ...

Bobby Jo

FHII · Jul 14, 2019

GodsGrace said:
I agree with you but could you clarify how there are Christians out there who have not manifested themselves as such,and don't even know they are...

How does one NOT know they are Christian (born again).?

I was hoping I wouldn't have to, but then you went and asked!

I don't even know if I can make this short enough to keep it interesting, but the Bible says in many places that God knows our endpoint from the beginning. I believe the beginning of time, but to avoid the whole predestination controversy, let's just say he knows your end before you were born.

So a guy on his 37th birthday may not believe there is a God, or refuses to acknowledge him and then he has a change of heart and by his 38th birthday is a full fledged Christian. He probably doesn't know alot about the Bible by then and still has a lot of questions and a lot to learn. We all do, but he especially.

So in our human frame of mind, he wasn't a Christian for those 37 years. In his own mind, he wasn't a Christian. But how did God see him? Answer: he was a man who was called in due season who only manifested himself as a Christian at age 38. He was always God's sheep. He was just lost, then at the appointed time, found.

We at a time or times are lost. But never to God. He knows exactly where we are.

Now, what do we do with that information, if it's true? My belief and philosophy is that you can't discount anyone as not a Christian or in our frame of reference, a potential manifested one. Just because they are on the wrong path now doesn't mean they will always be.

My personal experience is that I always had an awareness of God and Jesus, but never took it seriously until the age of 33 or 34. However, several things were slowly happening throughout my life to bring me to Christ. I may not have identified and woke up until age 33, but Jesus was paving the way long before that.

I assume it is the same for others.

Hidden In Him · Jul 14, 2019

"ByGrace" said:
Josho and rockytopva are , but so many of the 'Encounter Team' don't come on here much.
The regulars on here that I would recommend to talk to , would for me be @Hidden In Him and @Episkopos @amadeus ...you would need to talk to someone who checked in here often, and they pretty much do check in quite often. They are 'well seasoned' men who are used to ministry .

Bless you...Helen

Wow... there's a vote of confidence : )

GodsGrace · Jul 14, 2019

"ByGrace" said:
Thanks for the response.

So..what would cause you to draw a line in the sand and say that someone was not a true Christian? What words, teaching , or actions of somebody would make you say- "You are not a true Christian because of this and that and the other."

( I am also thinking of forums as well as real life)

I notice you were still here 4 mins ago!! How come you are not in bed...I make it 2.40am over there!!!

LOL!
Now it's 4:17 am.
Can't sleep.
But am not posting.....

Tomorrow morning.

Nancy · Jul 14, 2019

amadeus said:
I have a hard time with this because of communication. I also don't like the question.

As you Helen @"ByGrace" already know, the definition of Christian or christian for people is all mixed up. The word itself while used in the scriptures has no easy definition in the scriptures to which every reader of the same scriptures would agree. Like @Episkopos indicated when a person says he is a Christian [or small "c"] I take his word for it until he gives me reason to do otherwise. Even if I had doubts about a person's declaration about himself, I would still strive to keep my mouth shut on the subject unless given a good reason [hopefully a nudge from the Holy Spirit] to open it.

Assuming that a Christian must be a follower of Jesus, to make any judgment [within me... not necessarily spoken to other people] about whether a person is, or is not, should require observation or discernment or even revelation. Where should I draw the line between being in favor or being against a person fitting the above simple definition? Unless it is shown to be necessary, I don't draw a line.

I back away from specifics on a particular person on the one hand as usually not being in my job description; but I also back away from the hypothetical unless there is good reason to be so definite generally.

I do NOT endorse the Nicene (or any other) Creed. Rather I endorse the written scriptures as they are correctly interpreted by the Holy Spirit... The only place we are likely to find that interpretation is in a man's heart as brought to Life there. Who but God has access to all of that information about each and every person?

"a Christian must be a follower of Jesus"
Keep it as simple as it really is ♥

Nancy · Jul 14, 2019

...as the ONLY Way. We follow The "Way."

Nancy · Jul 14, 2019

FHII said:
I was hoping I wouldn't have to, but then you went and asked!

I don't even know if I can make this short enough to keep it interesting, but the Bible says in many places that God knows our endpoint from the beginning. I believe the beginning of time, but to avoid the whole predestination controversy, let's just say he knows your end before you were born.

So a guy on his 37th birthday may not believe there is a God, or refuses to acknowledge him and then he has a change of heart and by his 38th birthday is a full fledged Christian. He probably doesn't know alot about the Bible by then and still has a lot of questions and a lot to learn. We all do, but he especially.

So in our human frame of mind, he wasn't a Christian for those 37 years. In his own mind, he wasn't a Christian. But how did God see him? Answer: he was a man who was called in due season who only manifested himself as a Christian at age 38. He was always God's sheep. He was just lost, then at the appointed time, found.

We at a time or times are lost. But never to God. He knows exactly where we are.

Now, what do we do with that information, if it's true? My belief and philosophy is that you can't discount anyone as not a Christian or in our frame of reference, a potential manifested one. Just because they are on the wrong path now doesn't mean they will always be.

My personal experience is that I always had an awareness of God and Jesus, but never took it seriously until the age of 33 or 34. However, several things were slowly happening throughout my life to bring me to Christ. I may not have identified and woke up until age 33, but Jesus was paving the way long before that.

I assume it is the same for others.

"My personal experience is that I always had an awareness of God and Jesus, but never took it seriously until the age of 33 or 34. However, several things were slowly happening throughout my life to bring me to Christ. I may not have identified and woke up until age 33, but Jesus was paving the way long before that."

That could be my own story @FHII
And, hindsight for a Christian is quite the eye opener, eh?

APAK · Jul 14, 2019

@"ByGrace" Helen, to your OP and thread.

A Christian is called by God to sacrifice their lives and die to sin, and become righteous, holy and blameless, in a fashion as his Son, some 2000 years ago.

Now how many ‘Christians’ really understand these words on the site and in other places in life without having to succumb to an uncontrollable exposure and programmed urge; to bring out and place their religious idols on their altars of worship for guidance and understanding and as proof of knowledge. And in their process of worship, force the holy writ or scripture to be placed in chains as hostage, to be used in support of their false claims and worship.

I believe there are folks that say they are believers, who are not genuine at all. And there are many genuine Christians who only want milk, and no meat.

Now my conclusions are based on a ‘best’ guess based on time on station. And I may be all right or all wrong or somewhere in between. It is just an opinion of one person that is being honest in my response to your thread.

And I do also believe that if a statement of ‘Christian’ faith is enforced on this site, or a particular creed of faith or of loyalty is enforced to measure a Christian, I will surely be off to find a better country. And a better country is a rare element to find anywhere these days, indeed.

Blessing to you and family Helen

APAK

Hidden In Him · Jul 14, 2019

EllenDiann said:
God calls us BELIEVERS, and those who do not BELIEVE are condemned already. There are signs that follow those who BELIEVE (Mark 16). As Christians we choose daily to be IN HIM or be IN the world, but if we make ourselves a friend of the WORLD we make ourselves an enemy of God and He calls us adulterers (James 4:4). We choose to lose our LIFE FOR HIS SAKE, and if we LOSE our life, we will find life. Daily we choose to walk BY HIS SPIRIT or allow the carnal MIND to rule, but God is clear that when we walk by His SPIRIT we are the SONS OF GOD, and we will reap life. But if we walk by the carnality of our minds we will reap death and destruction. Does a carnal Christian go to heaven? I think God gives all men an opportunity to repent even upon the moment before departing this world, but we choose, He does not force us. We are to pray for all men because it will be our prayers that opens that door for many to have than final opportunity. You can't fake the heart who truly wants to receive God even upon the death bed, God sees the heart. Daily, I choose to WALK BY HIS SPIRIT because the WORD says if we walk by HIS SPIRIT we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. He further says that those who are LED BY HIS SPIRIT, these are the sons of God. God has given to His body, the church, those that believe, the same authority Christ walked in. His Spirit will witness with our spirit that we are sons of God. For my own life, I alone know this about me, and nobody has the insight except by the HOLY SPIRIT to know who I am, except by the fruit of the Spirit that follow me (Romans and Galatians). God sets before all men Life and Death and command us to choose LIFE (Deut 30). Although, all MEN have a RIGHT TO BECOME a SON OF GOD, all men must choose to be IN HIM. IN HIM, we live and move and have our being. Christians is a Word that the unbelievers called those who BELIEVED. For me Christians means I choose Christ as Lord of my Life.

This is a good strong post, but let me engage you here. There is one statement embedded in it that seems to define your position on what makes a Christian not a Christian and that is this, "For my own life, I alone know this about me, and nobody has the insight except by the HOLY SPIRIT to know who I am, except by the fruit of the Spirit that follow me (Romans and Galatians)."

I'm assuming you are referring to passages like Galatians 5:19-26:

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 envyings, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Now, I personally believe this to be Paul making a clear distinction between those fully walking in the flesh vs. those fully walking in the Spirit. But the question is this: Is he presenting this as a means for judging on the exterior whether someone has received Christ or not? You see, he ends it with "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit," which suggests that true believers who live by the Spirit could nevertheless not walk in the Spirit as they ought to. It reminds me of 2 Peter 1:5-10, where Peter likewise stated that some believers were not adding virtue, knowledge, patience, temperance, etc to their faith, and that this might lead to their taking on forgetfulness of the cleansing of their sins in times past (2 Peter 1:9). This means that they had been baptized, yet were not yet showing the fruit of it. That in turn put them in spiritual danger, by keeping their faith in a very weakened state whereby they were not making their calling and election sure (v.10).

So I think the position of judging by fruit can be misleading. Bearing good fruit is the eventual state of the true Christian, but just like with a tree in the natural world, one cannot tell what fruit it will bear until it fully matures (or dies away before it gets the chance to).

What do you think?
Looking forward to your response. I found your post quote good in many respects.

Welcome to Christianity Board.
Hidden In Him

WalterandDebbie · Jul 14, 2019

"ByGrace" said:
( EDIT:- addition....I am added this and changed the heading.
I am NOT after a list of verses about salvation...but I want to hear 'from you'.
I changed the heading when responding to @Enoch111 's post below. )
thanks....
-------

I was thinking it would be interesting what other Christians here think a Christian is...
AND who is 'allowed' to call themselves that?

(We'd like you in on this too @lforrest don't want you missing this post. )

There was some chatter the other day about who was 'allowed' to have "Christian" under their avatar and who should put 'Other Faith', in it's place. ( locking them out of 95% of the forum boards)
So, who defines who can call themselves a christian?

The Nicene creed was mentioned. > for those who don't know it , or have forgotten its content. Nicene Creed

I for one don't agree with a line at the end of it... re the Holy Spirit. It says:-
"He proceeds from the Father and the Son,
and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified."

I don't agree with that... I don't care if they were wise old men with beards.
I don't find that (bolded line) anywhere in the bible at all. In fact it is says He points TO the Father and Son. ( away from Himself)

The Nicene Creed would also define as none-christian any who have a different interpretation of what is called "The Trinity" ...with all the gobbledegook that goes with it about whether it is three persons in one, or one person with three distinct expressions...blah blah blah...
So, if the Nicene Creed is the acid test....are the none trinitarians not christians along with me...( who doesn't believe the Holy Spirit wants to be 'worshipped and glorified'. )

So, who says who is a christian, and who is not.

What do all of you have to say?

.....Helen

Anyone can say that they are a Christian with their mouth, but to me a genuine Christian is one that do whatever the Lord Jesus Christ says. That means to follow Christ all the days of his or her life.

Philip James · Jul 14, 2019

APAK said:
@"ByGrace" Helen, to your OP and thread.

A Christian is called by God to sacrifice their lives and die to sin, and become righteous, holy and blameless, in a fashion as his Son, some 2000 years ago.

Now how many ‘Christians’ really understand these words on the site and in other places in life without having to succumb to an uncontrollable exposure and programmed urge; to bring out and place their religious idols on their altars of worship for guidance and understanding and as proof of knowledge. And in their process of worship, force the holy writ or scripture to be placed in chains as hostage, to be used in support of their false claims and worship.

Powerful charges... Would you stand in the place of accusor of the brethren before the judgement seat?

Christ IS risen
Alleluia!

Bobby Jo · Jul 14, 2019

... interestingly, Ananias and Sepphira were BOTH received as Christians, until they each fell down dead. Apparently Peter discerned the problem and initially confronted Ananias, and subsequently Sepphira.

Acts 5:1 But a man named Anani′as with his wife Sapphi′ra sold a piece of property, 2 and with his wife’s knowledge he kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, “Anani′as, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? 4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” 5 When Anani′as heard these words, he fell down and died. And great fear came upon all who heard of it. 6 The young men rose and wrapped him up and carried him out and buried him.

7 After an interval of about three hours his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 And Peter said to her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for so much.” And she said, “Yes, for so much.” 9 But Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? Hark, the feet of those that have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.” 10 Immediately she fell down at his feet and died. When the young men came in they found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11 And great fear came upon the whole church, and upon all who heard of these things.

Of course GOD knows our hearts, but men can have discernment, and even simple observation of a life style:

1 Cor. 5:1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and of a kind that is not found even among pagans; for a man is living with his father’s wife. 2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.
3 For though absent in body I am present in spirit, and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment 4 in the name of the Lord Jesus on the man who has done such a thing. When you are assembled, and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Bobby Jo

Helen · Jul 14, 2019

Butterfly said:
Hi Helen,
I agree with many of the posts that define a Christian - but anyone can say ' They believe in Christ, why he came, who he was / is / that they believe in scripture / the trinity ect etc. Since joining the forum there have been a few ' obvious ' members who definately convey ' non Christian views '
( but they outwardly admit that they are athiest and are posting in the 5% of the forum where they are allowed to post )
When you want to become a member of a church you have to give your testimony, that is then evaluated by elders, and the membership and a vote is taken - I have been at some of the meetings where a persons personality is evaluated, and picked to pieces , despite the fact that the persons testimony was perfectly sound. I was ashamed to be part of that church at the time - it was horrible. I am pretty sure that all of us here believe we are Christians , but boy are we a diverse family , and don't we just love bickering with our siblings !!
We have had quite a few members who have come from sites that claim ' they are not Christians ' and banned them because they have not liked what they have said - but often as not it's because they don't fit in with the theology of the people who run it.
Can we really police a forum in that way ?
I did have a train of thought, but it's 12:30 in the morning and I have dlone a long shift today - and I have a long shift tomorrow- so I will leave this discussion to the rest of you xxxx
You know sometimes the forum reminds me of church meetings - as compared to Sunday morning - you never quite forget that first experience of seeing ' the other side ' of the people you worship with !!
Right I am getting some sleep xx
Rita xx

Thanks Rita.
I hope you got a good heavy sleep after posting so late...I am just headed to bed myself here ...you will soon be getting UP!

I agree with you that ‘some’ have the weight of legalism that they try to pass on to people.
The experience you quoted about a new believers testimony being ‘picked to pieces ‘ sounds horrific.
They could have taken them under their wing and gently led them , if they were a little ‘off’ on their understanding. I dread to think what the ones who were turned down as being ‘acceptable’ did afterward ....that is so sad. And so WRONG

So much for ‘shepherding’ .

I am so thankful for the openness of this Forum site to allow such a mixture of beliefs systems here.
We know it causes arguments with those who maintain that ‘they are in the right’....but this is an excellent forum with a good solid mix of members.

I’m on my iPad in bed , so , sorry if I have made some mistakes. I find the iPad hard.

Every blessing ..Helen x

Helen · Jul 14, 2019

Philip James said:
Powerful charges... Would you stand in the place of accusor of the brethren before the judgement seat?

Christ IS risen
Alleluia!

Long time no see....glad you and the family are well...they for sure keep you busy

APAX was answering honestly from his heart ....he was speaking ‘for him’....as I have asked everyone to do.

I thought his post was a good and well balanced of what ‘he’ sees and believes is a Christian ...

He’s not writing some new creed lol

Bless you brother. Hope it’s not too long before we see you again.

Helen · Jul 14, 2019

Bobby Jo said:
... interestingly, Ananias and Sepphira were BOTH received as Christians, until they each fell down dead. Apparently Peter discerned the problem and initially confronted Ananias, and subsequently Sepphira.

Acts 5:1 But a man named Anani′as with his wife Sapphi′ra sold a piece of property, 2 and with his wife’s knowledge he kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, “Anani′as, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? 4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” 5 When Anani′as heard these words, he fell down and died. And great fear came upon all who heard of it. 6 The young men rose and wrapped him up and carried him out and buried him.

7 After an interval of about three hours his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 And Peter said to her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for so much.” And she said, “Yes, for so much.” 9 But Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? Hark, the feet of those that have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.” 10 Immediately she fell down at his feet and died. When the young men came in they found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11 And great fear came upon the whole church, and upon all who heard of these things.

Of course GOD knows our hearts, but men can have discernment, and even simple observation of a life style:

1 Cor. 5:1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and of a kind that is not found even among pagans; for a man is living with his father’s wife. 2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.
3 For though absent in body I am present in spirit, and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment 4 in the name of the Lord Jesus on the man who has done such a thing. When you are assembled, and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Bobby Jo

Interesting.

So you do not see a difference between carnal Christians , baby Christian , and mature believing believers? You feel that they were not Christians at all?

I believe they were ...I do not believe that the ground opened and dropped them into hell.
I believe they sold their birthright and high calling...and lost the lot...not their salvation...

But , if I keep talking I will find myself locked out of the group of “saved true Christians “

Butterfly · Jul 14, 2019

"ByGrace" said:
Thanks Rita.
I hope you got a good heavy sleep after posting so late...I am just headed to bed myself here ...you will soon be getting UP!

I agree with you that ‘some’ have the weight of legalism that they try to pass on to people.
The experience you quoted about a new believers testimony being ‘picked to pieces ‘ sounds horrific.
They could have taken them under their wing and gently led them , if they were a little ‘off’ on their understanding. I dread to think what the ones who were turned down as being ‘acceptable’ did afterward ....that is so sad. And so WRONG So much for ‘shepherding’ .

I am so thankful for the openness of this Forum site to allow such a mixture of beliefs systems here.
We know it causes arguments with those who maintain that ‘they are in the right’....but this is an excellent forum with a good solid mix of members.

I’m on my iPad in bed , so , sorry if I have made some mistakes. I find the iPad hard.

Every blessing ..Helen x

Oh it wasn't the persons testimony that was picked to pieces, that relayed he was born again, had come to faith ect ( in other words he was a Christian ) It was his personality that was discussed and examined - in other words he was weighed up for membership on the criteria that he sometimes was a bit irratic in his approach. In other words they evaluated his suitability , rather than where he stood with the Lord.
It was about 6months later that I left that church !
Right - off to work I go xx
Rita

When is a christian NOT a Christian?

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