Because he was also fully human. And a human grows in wisdom and greatness as he matures. Jesus did not " cheat" and use his divinity in order to avoid falling into sin. He was sinless as a human.
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Renniks, my point is, don't assume that your position is correct until that you've proven it to be so. That is, all the fundamental arguments against the trinity that I brought up, undermine your exegesis. And yet, all you can do is stubbornly, say, 'no, I'm right, you're wrong'.
You're not being reasonable or mature about this, you discredit the doctrine in your inability to bring glory to wisdom and God through it.
Plus, your appeal to history shows the desperation and incompetency in your arguments. The Latin Vulgate was the only authorized version of Scripture for 1,000 years. The papacy has reigned supreme in the church for almost 2,000 years, Augustine, Aquinas, Anselm, Ambrose, etc.. were all canonized as saints according to history. IN other words, I vehemently denounce the councils of Nicaea, Constantinople, Ephesus, Chalcedon, etc...
How long are you going to keep showing how utterly ignorant that you are?
He has asked you countless times to explain how a single being can be both omniscient, and fallible in knowledge, at the same time?
How can Jesus one minute claim to not know the hour or day of his return to earth, unequivocally establishing his humanity, and then say 'before Abraham was, I am', allegedly professing his divinity? How can Jesus attain to perfection, as the Levitical Law requires for sacrifice, if during his walk on earth, he was even aware of his deity? That is, he broke the rules of the atonement - man for man (Romans 5:14-21).
You are assuming that you understanding of Scripture is correct, which is why you are so obstinate and unreasonable, when all the while these fundamental points undermine your whole thesis. Which, of course, you cannot respond to nor face.
Which makes you a heretic. This debate was laid to rest in the fourth century.
One has to wonder how anyone could stumble into arianism with all the Bible helps we have today. Others have already laid out the pertinent scriptures regarding this topic, on the thread. It's pointless to go back over what has already been revealed.
101G
Well-Known Member
Base12 , after re-reading some of the post here. BINGO you're on target. did anyone grasp what Romans 8:3 is saying? just what Isaiah 9:6 is saying. God sent his Son, but was not the "Son", according to some "born?" so how can one send a "Son" according to some who is not yet BORN?
well again the wake up call, THE SON WAS NEVER "BORN", but was GIVEN just as Isaiah 9:6 states. Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
the child/flesh was "BORN", the Son was "GIVEN", never born...
nor was he a thought. let's see who Jesus is. Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me." who's ARM? God's OWN Arm. meaning God himself. see how easy the bible answer any question. JESUS is God in Flesh. God is never "Born", only the flesh he came in was "BORN".
so Base12, on point, with the Son Given/Sent.
and also on point with, "The key word is 'likeness". Not actual sinful flesh", supportive scripture, Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:"
PICJAG.
I'm not an Arian. I do not deify Christ in any manner whatsoever, there is only one God, and He is the Father alone. The Spirit is a gift from God the Father, which He bestows upon His saints.
Let's just see if the architects of the creeds that you believe in will come to your support on Judgement Day, in the same way that you are defending them now. I don't believe that God the Father will give them as much credence and authority as you do.
We are not saved by understanding everything about God, so I'm not even sure what Judgement day has to do with it. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ's finished work on the cross for our redemption.
If you have the wrong Jesus on Judgement day, the one who was just a man, will that save you? Perhaps God would give you grace if you believe in the wrong Christ from ignorance, but that doesn't seem to be the case. You know the scriptures that portray Jesus as deity and continue to ignore them.
“Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”
“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM [He], you will die in your sins.”
A lot of people have heard that, and yet never find out , never know, it is not truth.
Everyone (except Jesus of course), was once conformed to this world as a son of disobedience (how many times did God, Jesus, the Prophets and the Apostles call men "sons of the devil" ?
Only a few become new creations, in God's Image, as Written....
Study Bible
Alive with Christ
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.…
Berean Study Bible · Download
Most people never hear God, His still small voice, but He still says IF you hear MY Voice TODAY, do not be rebellious like they were in the wilderness and ended up destroyed....
i.e. IF you hear HIS VOICE, (as JESUS SAYS TOO) , follow Jesus, obey Him, DO as He Says, and do not follow other voices anyway.
Renniks, very, very bad exegesis. Immanuel is the use of theophory throughout the entire Bible. Countless men had El within their names, all alluding to a relationship with God. Daniel, Michael, Elizabeth, Gabriel, Ezekiel, etc... they integrate God within their names. Besides, The Old Testament clearly displays the Israelites as abandoned and their Messianic promise unfulfilled. When Christ was finally born, we can all say now, God has not abandoned His people, He has returned His favour towards them. In other words, God is now with us again, as before when His shekaniah glory inhabited the Temple & Tabernacle.
I have no time for the silly & ridiculous 'I Am' statements. I am merely means the awaited Messiah.
I believe that those who believe in the trinity are not saved, and will have a great deal of explaining to do on Judgement Day. Of which not one of you, will be able to do. Which you have said countless times yourself.
But God created man in His image on day one, no? Meaning, since man's inception into the world. Of course, the fullness of that remains to be completed on Christ's return.
Nancy
Well-Known Member
@Nancy It was all part of a careful, Divine plan.Actually it was on day 6 that God created man...
...yes, I was going to add a parenthesis to that, but I felt that sentence two clarified what I meant. Which was, since the first day of man's creation, he bore the image of God, in contrast to what I believe Joseph to be implying.Actually it was on day 6 that God created man...
historyb
Well-Known Member
Bible Verses About Wicked Heart
[Search domain www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Wicked-Heart/] BIBLE VERSES ABOUT WICKED HEART
Jeremiah 17:9 - The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it? Mark 7:21 - For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Romans 1:21 - Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
================================
God is Perfectly Righteous and Holy and Created Wisdom and Knowledge - there is no iniquity in Him.
Mankind? Not even kind - mankind (society) is death dealing wicked and selfish.
[Search domain www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Wicked-Heart/] BIBLE VERSES ABOUT WICKED HEART
Jeremiah 17:9 - The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it? Mark 7:21 - For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Romans 1:21 - Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
================================
God is Perfectly Righteous and Holy and Created Wisdom and Knowledge - there is no iniquity in Him.
Mankind? Not even kind - mankind (society) is death dealing wicked and selfish.
Because we are all descendants or the offspring of Adam, who rebelled in the garden of Eden and thus became flawed or imperfect, we received only that which our forefather Adam could give us - sin - which is from the Hebrew word chattath that means "miss", as in shooting at something and missing.
It can be likened to a production run whereby a critical piece is dented, so that all items created with that mold are also dented. Adam became "dented" or flawed when he "listened to" Eve's voice and took the forbidden fruit from his wife Eve's hand and ate it.(Gen 3:1-6, 17)
Hence, the apostle Paul wrote: "That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned".(Rom 5:12) However, Jesus father was not Adam, but God, whose personal name is Jehovah.(Ps 83:18; Luke 1:31, 32)
So, Jehovah God gave to Jesus as his father that which he has always had - perfection. On the other hand, 1 Kings 8:46 is speaking of all the offspring from Adam, and of which there were no other ones on the earth. Even the rebel angels who fathered the Nephilim at Genesis 6, are imperfect, having materialized as men in order to have sex relations with women.(Gen 6:1-4; Jude 6, 7; 1 Pet 3:19, 20)
Only Jesus Christ was directly fathered by Jehovah God as a human, through Mary by holy spirit, for Joseph was not his father.(Matt 1:18-25) That is why Jesus told Nicodemus: "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life".(John 3:16; Note: Jesus being "only-begotten" means that Jehovah God directly created him, unlike the angels who were created with Jesus as Jehovah's helper or "master worker", Prov 8:30; also note: the King James Bible failed to accurately render the Hebrew word amon at Prov 8:30, that means "skilled, i.e. an architect", that is properly rendered as "master worker", so that Prov 8:30 accurately reads: "Then I was beside him (Jehovah God) as a master worker (Hebrew amon, whereby Strong's Exhaustive Concordance says: "from H539, probably in the sense of training"). I was the one he was especially fond of day by day; I rejoiced before him all the time", New World Translation)
Thus the apostle Peter wrote: "In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving you a (perfect) model to follow his steps closely. He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth. When being insulted, he did not insult in return. When he was suffering, he did not threaten, but he entrusted himself to the One (Jehovah God) who judges righteously".(1 Pet 2:21-23)
It can be likened to a production run whereby a critical piece is dented, so that all items created with that mold are also dented. Adam became "dented" or flawed when he "listened to" Eve's voice and took the forbidden fruit from his wife Eve's hand and ate it.(Gen 3:1-6, 17)
Hence, the apostle Paul wrote: "That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned".(Rom 5:12) However, Jesus father was not Adam, but God, whose personal name is Jehovah.(Ps 83:18; Luke 1:31, 32)
So, Jehovah God gave to Jesus as his father that which he has always had - perfection. On the other hand, 1 Kings 8:46 is speaking of all the offspring from Adam, and of which there were no other ones on the earth. Even the rebel angels who fathered the Nephilim at Genesis 6, are imperfect, having materialized as men in order to have sex relations with women.(Gen 6:1-4; Jude 6, 7; 1 Pet 3:19, 20)
Only Jesus Christ was directly fathered by Jehovah God as a human, through Mary by holy spirit, for Joseph was not his father.(Matt 1:18-25) That is why Jesus told Nicodemus: "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life".(John 3:16; Note: Jesus being "only-begotten" means that Jehovah God directly created him, unlike the angels who were created with Jesus as Jehovah's helper or "master worker", Prov 8:30; also note: the King James Bible failed to accurately render the Hebrew word amon at Prov 8:30, that means "skilled, i.e. an architect", that is properly rendered as "master worker", so that Prov 8:30 accurately reads: "Then I was beside him (Jehovah God) as a master worker (Hebrew amon, whereby Strong's Exhaustive Concordance says: "from H539, probably in the sense of training"). I was the one he was especially fond of day by day; I rejoiced before him all the time", New World Translation)
Thus the apostle Peter wrote: "In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving you a (perfect) model to follow his steps closely. He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth. When being insulted, he did not insult in return. When he was suffering, he did not threaten, but he entrusted himself to the One (Jehovah God) who judges righteously".(1 Pet 2:21-23)
Where do you get this nonsense about people being saved by having a perfect understanding of God? Where does scripture say we are saved by believing God isn't three in one? You have it exactly backwards.
" if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved."
There's some things you must believe to get here. You must believe God exists.
You must believe you are a sinner in need of salvation.
And You've got to believe in the deity of Jesus. Psalm 49 says that no man can pay a ransom for another man. A few verses later, in verse 15, it says God will pay the ransom.
You must believe Jesus lived a perfect human life and that he died and came back to life for your redemption.
You certainly don't have to understand how the trinity works. No one has a complete understanding of God.
So a person may never hear of such a thing as a "trinity" and be saved. But if you asked them, "The Jesus you are believing in, is he divine or is he just a man?" If they said he is not divine, then they are not believing in God, but a man. That's a major problem.
101G
Well-Known Member
correct, for JESUS is Lord and GOD, that statement right there is a statement of FAITH, in that the ONENESS of God as ONE PERSON. lets explain,
Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he."
"with", here indicate the same person. I the LORD, the first, STOP, the LORD all caps is the "FIRST", Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" NOTICE the title ... "LORD" and this "LORD", one person is "WITH" the "LAST".. right... right. NOW THIS, 1 Corinthians 15:45 "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit." THE "LAST" ADAM IS JESUS... right ... right. but is the ordinal "FIRST", the LORD the ordinal "Last", the Lord Jesus the Christ. well Isaiah said the First is "WITH" Last. ok, now Isaiah again said this, Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." HOLD IT, SAY WHAT? the first is "ALSO" the Last, YES, the same person just as the Word in John 1:1 is "WITH" God and the Word is GOD, the same one person. and Jesus said in revelation "I AM the FIRST and the LAST", BINGO, the same person.
so when we confess with our mouth that JESUS is Lord, we are confessing that JESUS is GOD. because according to John 2:18-21 it was JESUS who is GOD, raised up his own body. boy oh boy this bible is getting smaller and smaller everyday.
PICJAG.
Because Yahshua HaMachshiach is Eternal, Uncreated, no beginning and without end,
and
because Yahweh's Word says it is so,
it is so.
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