Discussion re: Spiritual Gifts etc...

[Mayflower]

I admit I start skimming after the first or second paragraph.

I am sure it is from the heart but you had to pick that up from being around people that pray like that.

I didn't mention tongues either, if you note.

And like it or not, I find that kind of prayer even in my former Presbyterian church when they ask for the Father to send the Holy Spirit into the congregation... to minister to the lost, but I find no such prayer necessary in the Book of Acts for ministerial outreach when the Holy Spirit is in the missionaries and scripture testify that it is the Father that draws men unto the Son ( John 6:44 ) and the Father reveals His Son even to babes ( Matthew 11:25-27 ) and so I know about the common errant assumption practiced by believers that the Holy Spirit is the One drawing them by being around the event as if outside of the sinner when scripture says no. Sinners get the Holy Spirit from the Father when they come to & believe in Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is already there in saved believers to minister to the lost by, so there is no need to call for the Holy Spirit when that can only happen at salvation at the calling of the gospel. FYI

It is no mystery to me why other denominations like Catholics and Protestant churches in 1994 experience the supernatural in regards to the "holy laughter" movement because that kind of prayer leaves them wide open for that to happen and lead many astray by when confusion does come in.

Sherwin was debunking the "slain in the 'Spirit' movement which I know can also come about by that type of prayer. I was hardly addressing tongues. I was exposing how Sherwin is aware of the "fakers" in such movements that try to fit in when others are actually being experiencing that supernatural phenomenon in that other church and that has happened in real life, sister.

Now if you defend "slain in the 'Spirit' " as being of the Lord, then we will have a problem. If you do not defend it, then we do not have a problem, but there is no denial that this kind of heartfelt prayer has left the door wide open for the supernatural to occur. It does not always happen, but it can happen and when it does, if you did not believe in the "slain in the Spirit" movement, then because of that kind of prayer, you would have a hard time telling those that are actually experiencing it that it is not of the Lord, because they will point to your prayer and claim that it has to be the Holy Spirit.

So.. if you are of the camp that do not believe God is the author of that confusion which is the "slain in the Spirit" movement, but still do not see anything wrong with your heartfelt prayer, then you can at least see how that kind of prayer can be used for something else for why you should not be mad at "Sherwin" for saying something to prevent fakers from trying to steal the spotlight off of whatever devotion Mr. Morrison has in mind tonight for those that are in mourning so that the Lord would minster through His words rather than by the spectacular show the fakers put on.

And yeah.. as much as I told that one Methodist pastor about his prayer like that as his reasoning that the Holy Spirit had to be there to minister to the lost... I am sure he was not going to stop praying like that in spite of understanding my point that when the supernatural happens, they will think that was the Holy Spirit responding in bringing all that confusion.

I had to stop singing certain hymns that was addressing the Holy Spirit in worship. There were things He had to help me correct in my speech in bearing witness of Him, even in prayer, if need be.

Jesus said that those who bear fruit, He will prune so that they will bear more fruit ( John 15:1-2 ). So I am serious about narrowing the way to that straight gate ( Luke 13:24 ) , thanks to Jesus. So as much as it is your heartfelt prayer, I reckon I can only ask you to discern that kind of prayer with Him for why He would have you pray differently so that no one can take that prayer, let alone seducing spirits, as an opportunity to steal the spotlight from the Son in fellowship... and in this case regarding the campfire tale...preventing Mr. Morrison from even beginning his devotion in all respect.

But if you want to leave that prayer alone and Sherwin's response as a way to bring awareness about how we pray and how it can serve as a threshold for something to happen to take that spotlight away from the Son in worship, prayer, and fellowship, be it fakers or the supernatural, that would be agreeable to me, but at least nothing will get in the way of that edifying devotion coming.

You can just have Jacob & Mr. Morrison see Sherwin as sounding an alarm that you believe was totally unnecessary as they are unaware of what Becky and her friends were about to do that Sherwin suspected of.

However.. if you want me to drop out of the story... and let you take it from there... that is fine, but I can't delete Sherwin's warning because of what that kind of prayer can bring in real life. FYI

I am finally able to start catching up now and read all you wrote. I have to take it in segments.

As far as the prayer goes, my problem with having to fix a line in prayer, is when I pray whether quiet or out loud, I am praying to God and not for show. Now I know a pastor studies for His sermons and teachings. But for a prayer, I think if you are trying to say what others want you to hear, or read, then it is not to God...now that can open the wrong doors.

Yes, I have been influenced by different denominations. What is amazing is at church today, the one who prayed did something very similar to my first prayer I wrote in the story. And I was thinking, "awwwww, Jif is right. I am influenced by others in how I pray. But, I have gone to my church for over 7 years now. And it is non denominational, but mostly Weslyan type teaching from what my senior pastor had explained to me awhile back. It is a lot more laid back then when I lived in the Bible belt for so long.

But with this church family, I have grown more then any other. However prayers are worded, God knows the heart. And especially in the area I live where denominations like Assembly of God are close to non existent, doors to the occult are not open. (This is how I take what you are saying when you say supernatural). I see the Holy Spirit move over everyone. Come Holy Spirit. I need thee!!!!!

And I hear your point that the Holy Spirit lives in

 

[Mayflower]

side of us. That we don't have to be filled, because we are. But what is more important to God for one person to say . I pray You just show up like a flame and ignite the hearts of everyone

Or

, Jesus, that You teach us Your words through the Holy Spirit in us, in the areas each of us need Your help in, not just for ministering unto us, ourselves, but to others around us who do not know You yet

When it means the same thing to each person and the prayer is to God and not others. I trust God to speak to someone else.

I saw this facebook meme that talked about a lady who was going to leave the church because of people on their cellphones and thinking they were hypocrites. And the pastor said to walk around twice with a glass of water in the church before she left. When she did that, she was focusing on the glass and not everyone else.

I get so easily distracted by what others think. So when I pray I just want to focus on God. When I am praying to God, no doors of the enemy are going to be open. The sad part is that anything and anyone can cause someone to stumble, even someone's prayer.

Now it wasn't a big deal to me to just change it since it was written down and I edit writing all the time. But generally when I pray out loud and things, one line isn't going to start a Holy laughter movement or anything. God wouldn't allow that. Because even a child can pray words like "come in Holy Spirit," and God doesn't count that as unrighteousness or it invites evil in. God is more merciful then that. He is our protection. He just wants us to talk to Him.

Now I got to go find scriptures to back this up. I write my thoughts down and then have to go check them. But Ill have to go back and read more later.

But this did bother me.

I admit that the first time I walked into an Assembly of God church though and hear tongues and interpreters and saw slain in the spirit (now that I still have no clue on and ain't going there right now. Lol), I was praying hard against demons and everything. But I see the fruits. And some people will do it for show for sure. But there are many who genuinely have the gift just like gifts in music, encouragement, teaching.....people are not slighted from not having a gift...I can't preach to adults or teens,or heal or whatever though I would love that. And these gifts give the same benefits as tongues. A Christian is not slighted one bit from it. My hussband is the quietest man you ever saw, but he also can say one sentence and it encourages me not to be so anxious. People have different gifts.

It is hard to defend the grey areas. But if I had to pick a side until I continue to study, I have tried it without praying in tongues...now I will try it and pray God is leading me in the Truth with this. But if I am anxious and worry about what is right and wrong and stay in the middle... I feel that is what will open up the wrong doors. That is why it it does get discouraging sometimes reading discussions. And sometimes seeing "biting" among each other trying to defend beliefs. I have liked reading this so far, because everyone has been Christ-like I believe.

It is just thinking too hard about things that can get us in trouble sometimes... If I was a new believer and suddenly saw all of that theology on why one line of prayer was opening the wrong doors, I would not want to go there...

I think Matthew 18 is great...to go to someone in private. Yeh, I don't pm men in lighthearted conversation, but if someone pm'd me I disagree and started a thread like this...I think we would draw those in who otherwise wouldn't want to give Christianity in general a chance...

Everyone won't fit in the same mold as to their views on the gifts of the Holy Spirit or their views on the Bible...And no prayer when said to God is going to open doors of the enemy. If one starts to get afraid it will, that is when those doors are going to open.

 

[Mayflower]

It would be very hard for you to tell someone you love that is a believer if something happened by the way you said that heartfelt prayer. Just consider that "nightmare".

This would scare me honestly not even to pray to make a brother or sister stumble. I already have the hardest time being anxious over the smallest things. I have to trust God when I talk to Him that He knows what I mean.

@amadeus I am sorry. I tried big writing, but I write and read on my phone. I am fixing to get internet since I start school online full time tomorrow, and it will be less frustrating to help a brother out to follow along in discussions, but on my phone, it is super hard to highlight and make words bigger.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

@Mayflower You agree that "slain in the spirit" is not of Him. If you pay attention to how they focus on the Holy Spirit, pray to Him to come, that "slain in the spirit" happens. So as they "pray to God" as in they did "pray to the Holy Spirit", why did the devil respond when God is not the author of confusion?

My point is.. it is not about one set mold, but about the commandment of His invitation in the only way to come to God the Father by; and that is by the only way of the Son ( John 14:6 ) as only the Son can answers prayers ( John 14:13-14 )

So when you say "Come Holy Spirit" not expecting confusion that others claim has happened by invoking the Holy Spirit to come, you would have a very hard time proving any one that was not the real Holy Spirit that came in the midst of that confusion when it should come.

I will say this: when an evil spirit does come, regardless of you addressing the Holy Spirit in prayer to come, remember that the real Holy Spirit is in you and you can call on Jesus Christ in your thoughts to save you from this evil spirit. I just hope afterwards, you will know not to open yourselves up to spirits again because there can be no Holy Spirit coming again when He is in you forever as a testimony and as a Witness along with scripture that you are saved as Spirit-filled as promised.

We are always Spirit filled because we are still in this vile body of death and that is why we are accountable to what we sow towards; the works of the flesh or the fruits of the Spirit.

So.. in according to our faith in Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ is in us. What is in the worship place outside of us is the spirit of the antichrist; 1 John 4:4

So I hope He reminds you to call on Him to be saved from any evil spirit when that devil comes roaming around seeking whom he may devour, because greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world. Love ya, sister, but I see you in iniquity and in danger as I do all my brothers and sisters that go in that direction rather than striving thru the straight gate by narrowing the way to Jesus Christ as the Bridegroom in relating to God the Father by.

 

[Mayflower]

@Mayflower You agree that "slain in the spirit" is not of Him. If you pay attention to how they focus on the Holy Spirit, pray to Him to come, that "slain in the spirit" happens. So as they "pray to God" as in they did "pray to the Holy Spirit", why did the devil respond when God is not the author of confusion?

My point is.. it is not about one set mold, but about the commandment of His invitation in the only way to come to God the Father by; and that is by the only way of the Son ( John 14:6 ) as only the Son can answers prayers ( John 14:13-14 )

So when you say "Come Holy Spirit" not expecting confusion that others claim has happened by invoking the Holy Spirit to come, you would have a very hard time proving any one that was not the real Holy Spirit that came in the midst of that confusion when it should come.

I will say this: when an evil spirit does come, regardless of you addressing the Holy Spirit in prayer to come, remember that the real Holy Spirit is in you and you can call on Jesus Christ in your thoughts to save you from this evil spirit. I just hope afterwards, you will know not to open yourselves up to spirits again because there can be no Holy Spirit coming again when He is in you forever as a testimony and as a Witness along with scripture that you are saved as Spirit-filled as promised.

We are always Spirit filled because we are still in this vile body of death and that is why we are accountable to what we sow towards; the works of the flesh or the fruits of the Spirit.

So.. in according to our faith in Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ is in us. What is in the worship place outside of us is the spirit of the antichrist; 1 John 4:4

So I hope He reminds you to call on Him to be saved from any evil spirit when that devil comes roaming around seeking whom he may devour, because greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world. Love ya, sister, but I see you in iniquity and in danger as I do all my brothers and sisters that go in that direction rather than striving thru the straight gate by narrowing the way to Jesus Christ as the Bridegroom in relating to God the Father by.

Well I will just ask for a hedge of protection while I am praying and trust the areas I don't know about, that God will send His Spirit of Truth.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Well I will just ask for a hedge of protection while I am praying and trust the areas I don't know about, that God will send His Spirit of Truth.

Hopefully, soon, you will know that the Spirit of Truth was already in you since your salvation so that you will show that truth and that faith by not asking for the Spirit of Truth to be sent any more.

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

When I read His words above, He is telling me that the Father would never send the Holy Spirit at any other time than at the time of knocking at the door of Jesus Christ for our salvation, BECAUSE if He did, it would make the Father look evil as if He did not give the Holy Spirit the first time as promised.

 

[Mayflower]

Hopefully, soon, you will know that the Spirit of Truth was already in you since your salvation so that you will show that truth and that faith by not asking for the Spirit of Truth to be sent any more.

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

When I read His words above, He is telling me that the Father would never send the Holy Spirit at any other time than at the time of knocking at the door of Jesus Christ for our salvation, BECAUSE if He did, it would make the Father look evil as if He did not give the Holy Spirit the first time as promised.

See to me it is one and the same....

Like when I came to Indiana, people called vacuums sweepers. So when someone told me to sweep the carpet the first time...I got a broom.

I think it is important that even though we don't have to talk like others...we need to understand what others mean...

I can try to talk in the language as someone else, but it is going to take awhile to learn the language...

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

See to me it is one and the same....

Like when I came to Indiana, people called vacuums sweepers. So when someone told me to sweep the carpet the first time...I got a broom.

I think it is important that even though we don't have to talk like others...we need to understand what others mean...

I can try to talk in the language as someone else, but it is going to take awhile to learn the language...

You can always ask Jesus Christ at that throne of grace to help you speak correctly in representing the faith in Jesus Christ. I have done it, and I am still continually trusting Him to help me speak the right words for others to see my faith clearly as standing apart from any rudiments in the world.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I just shake my head. Those that don't believe in the gifts of the spirit should not instruct on what's right. They just don't know. Just makes me sad. Not only do they not receive but prevent others from receiving.

Building up, giving thanks well. So much more.

Jesusisfaithful said;

I don't see how you can attribute your spiritual growth to prayer language if you do not know what it is doing, let alone understand what the tongue is saying.

The scripture says;

1 Corinthians 14:2 KJVS
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him ; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Jesusisfaithful said;

God wants you to pray and by knowing what you had prayed for, you can give the Father known genuine thanks in Jesus's name.

But the scripture says;

Romans 8:26 KJVS
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

It is the spirit that gives the utterance, we only yield our tongues to the spirit of God. No different than when Jesus said do not consider beforehand what you will speak.

Excellent posts, Frank. I found most of this thread painful to read. These two were a light in the darkness.

 

[Helen]

Excellent posts, Frank. I found most of this thread painful to read. These two were a light in the darkness.

I agree, it kind of 'hits you in the gut' doesn't it.
A bit like hearing someone trashing your mother...

The sadness is in seeing him trying to hinder others and throw a wet blanket over the Holy Spirit.

Painful indeed.

 

[Frank Lee]

My constant prayer is that I always, speak according to scripture. I know I fail especially in things I do. We do really "stumble on our corpses".

I lean heavily on 1 John 2:27 for the abiding anointing of the indwelling Holy Spirit to guide me. I see many if not all of those that depend upon their denominational teaching rather than the bible. It's frightening to see how powerful tradition and denominational religion is. They look at the scriptures and see something different than what is written there.

We must leave it with God while continuing to speak the truth in love. God help us all to carry on the last mile of the way. Amen

 

[Mayflower]

I agree, it kind of 'hits you in the gut' doesn't it.
A bit like hearing someone trashing your mother...

The sadness is in seeing him trying to hinder others and throw a wet blanket over the Holy Spirit.

Painful indeed.

I don't think anyone is trying to hinder...but it is confusing. I should just listen more then write when trying to figure something out. Usually writing does help me figure things out. But this hasn't. Just anxious about it.

 

[Frank Lee]

 

[amadeus]

@amadeus I am sorry. I tried big writing, but I write and read on my phone. I am fixing to get internet since I start school online full time tomorrow, and it will be less frustrating to help a brother out to follow along in discussions, but on my phone, it is super hard to highlight and make words bigger.

Thank you for your concern sister. I do manage when it catches my eye unless in addition to being small it is also lengthy with no breaks between paragraphs.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

View attachment 3744

That had happened at your salvation when you were born again of the Spirit at the calling of the gospel when you had first believed in Jesus Christ to be saved.

For that believer to ask for that fire. that baptism with the Holy Ghost again.. is to deny that you had ever received Him. It is a false witness.

 

[Frank Lee]

That had happened at your salvation when you were born again of the Spirit at the calling of the gospel when you had first believed in Jesus Christ to be saved.

For that believer to ask for that fire. that baptism with the Holy Ghost again.. is to deny that you had ever received Him. It is a false witness.

You are in error my friend. The disciples were already believers before the day of Pentecost. Jesus said wait for the Holy Spirit. They waited.

Surely you see the men in Acts chapter 19 were already believers, saved that is. Then they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. With gifts.

When you are saved you are born of the spirit. Not filled with the spirit.

Denominational doctrines, mainly baptists, continually deny God's gifts. They have no power in their lives but exercise themselves through dead works, not having the power and firecof the Holy Spirit.

You're telling me that what I received I did not receive. That Jesus wrote one thing and says another.

Too bad. I won't try to convince denominationalized persons of anything. Beating vdead horses is tiresome.

I cannot but testify of the things I've seen and heard.

You've been taught by the deniers.

What does Jesus say to you? Does He say the same thing the denominational teachers say?

Rarely does a believer get baptized in the Holy Spirit at salvation but sometimes yes. If so they are given the gift of tongues. You deny the written words of God in your denial.

The only evidence of the baptism in the Bible is the gift of tongues. Reference Cornelius who received the gift before he and his group were even water baptized.

You do not even believe the testimony I gave of our son but cast it out. You're cheating yourself by looking at men's creation, a denomination, over God's.

Jesus is indeed faithful but you are in denial of His words.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

You are in error my friend. The disciples were already believers before the day of Pentecost. Jesus said wait for the Holy Spirit. They waited.

His disciples were not officially saved until Pentecost because Jesus said that the promise of the forever indwelling Holy Ghost would be sent from the Father AFTER He had ascended to the Father. That is what John 14:1-26 is about. Matthew 10th and John 20th chapter was not the salvation moment at all. It was temporary so that His disciples can share in the same testimony as everyone else that believes in Him after He had ascended for salvation.

Surely you see the men in Acts chapter 19 were already believers, saved that is. Then they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. With gifts.

They were not believers in Jesus Christ. If they were, Paul would not need to tell them Who John the Baptist was preaching about that was coming. That means they were disciples of John the Baptist's. If they were really disciples of Jesus Christ, they would not need Paul telling them about Jesus and then they get water baptized in His name.

When you are saved you are born of the spirit. Not filled with the spirit.

That is you separating yourselves from the rest of the body of Christ. You are departing from the testimony below of what we are all suppose to say.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Jesus said otherwise in John 6:35 for why a born again of the Spirit believer would never hunger nor thirst to be filled again in that wise.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

While you guys misapply scripture to prove that one can receive something of the Holy Spirit apart from salvation, you are actually glorifying that as another calling and another gospel and another Holy Spirit to receive which goes against the warning in 2 Corinthians 11:3-4.

I know my words will mean nothing to you. Neither will His words mean nothing to you. Neither will Paul's words nor the apostle John's words. Scripture does not matter to you because all you need is that "spirit" and that "phenomenon". Your supernatural experiences trumps scripture. You will continue to not see how the scripture you apply is wrong and why you continue to ignore those scripture that reproves you for preaching another gospel.

 

[April_Rose]

I was told by @FluffyYellowDuck to ask about discernment on here when I believe I've heard from God since there have been times where I've been absolutely one hundred percent right. For sometimes it's random, sometimes I believe it's Him answering a question for me, and sometimes it's just a feeling that He wants me to say or do something. Cause what happens to me is that when I get the message wrong (even though I'm a hundred percent confident at the time) I start doubting myself and faith again.

 

[DuckieLady]

I was told by @FluffyYellowDuck to ask about discernment on here when I believe I've heard from God since there have been times where I've been absolutely one hundred percent right. For sometimes it's random, sometimes I believe it's Him answering a question for me, and sometimes it's just a feeling that He wants me to say or do something. Cause what happens to me is that when I get the message wrong (even though I'm a hundred percent confident at the time) I start doubting myself and faith again.

This one is a few years old I meant this one....

Sign Gifts Semi-Safe House

You might get responses from both though!

 

[April_Rose]

This one is a few years old I meant this one....

Sign Gifts Semi-Safe House

You might get responses from both though!

So, do you mean that this is a place where I will be also free to talk about this without people laughing at me or think I'm making this up or something?