Jean and I

[Randy Kluth]

Jean and I were talking, and Jean suggested we look at the book of Revelation, a favorite book of mine. And Jean being something of an artist, I recognized something that could make the book interesting to her. I saw that the book was more a book of paintings than a theological treatise. Paul was the theologian, and John was the artist.

I realized the book of Revelation is a series of visions, not really in chronological order. But its narrative paints a number of paintings that depict a central idea: the Lord is coming. So, as I looked into the 1st chapter of Revelation, I saw the 1st two "paintings" that John gave us. Note the parts designated by brackets are these two initial "paintings," or visions.

Rev 1.The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

4 John,

To the seven churches in the province of Asia:

Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

[7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”]
So shall it be! Amen.

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

9 I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10 On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11 which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.”

[12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.]

17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

19 “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. 20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

Please note the intensity of these "paintings." They vividly portray things that can best be illustrated by art, rather than explained theologically.

1) Jesus comes with the clouds. The Son of God descends from the sky, as the author of the universe, the Son of the One who made all things. And he is coming to the people he has made, and is received by those weeping at the horrors of how they have treated him, not just crucifying him 2000 years ago, but still being maligned today, and scoffed at by those who wish him to go away like a fable.

2) Jesus appears among 7 gold lampstands, representing his precious churches. He views them of great worth and having great beauty. Do we see God's people like God does?

Jesus holds the 7 angels who wield heavenly authority over the destinies of these 7 churches. Note that the Evil One, in all of his persecutions, does not really have complete control--God does!

The robe reached down to his feet. He is completely adorned, indicating that he is completely beautified. His work of beautification is complete. The model for the Church is of intense beauty.

His hair was not gray, but pure white, indicating absolute purity, of the innocence of a sheep.

His eyes of fire penetrates the hidden sins of all men.

His feet had been through a furnace of trials, proving him true to his calling.

His voice was like thunderous waters to someone dying of thirst in the desert.

His mouth was like a sword, commanding words that bring the world and every individual into judgment.

Finally, his face was so bright that it could not be looked upon by the human eye.

This made John feel like he was a dead man. He was a sinful man, even though he had availed himself of the grace of Christ's free gift of righteousness. He needed encouragement.

Jesus, standing there, gave it to him. He declared that he had the keys of death itself. He was the source of eternal life.

These paintings are for you, if you can hear the description and see the visions. And if you hear them and live by them, you will indeed live forever.

 

[Jay Ross]

I see the Book of Revelation as a series of tapestry images stitched onto a sheet that hangs which portrays the prophecies contained in the book, in an easily understood order starting at the beginning of the prophecy and moving away from the starting point of the prophecy which could be either the end or starting point of the overall prophecy and moving either forwards or backwards depending on how the prophetic visions were laid out for John to observe.

I have found that the best way to set out the prophecies is to place them on a time line in the sequence in which they occur.

But to many people only see the prophecies in the Book of Revelation as being set out in a logical linear order and as such there is much confusion as to how the Book's prophecies will unfold.

Shalom

 

[Randy Kluth]

I see the Book of Revelation as a series of tapestry images stitched onto a sheet that hangs which portrays the prophecies contained in the book, in an easily understood order starting at the beginning of the prophecy and moving away from the starting point of the prophecy which could be either the end or starting point of the overall prophecy and moving either forwards or backwards depending on how the prophetic visions were laid out for John to observe.

I have found that the best way to set out the prophecies is to place them on a time line in the sequence in which they occur.

But to many people only see the prophecies in the Book of Revelation as being set out in a logical linear order and as such there is much confusion as to how the Book's prophecies will unfold.

Shalom

Yea, thanks for that. I do see a narrative sequence, but telling a story doesn't always represent a timeline of the things being mentioned. Visions have the unique ability to be virtually timeless at times, and so I like how you depict them, as moving forwards or backwards.

Clearly, there is an order in which John relates the account of his visions. But who knows whether the things in each vision relate, in sequence, to other events in other visions? It really requires understanding each vision separately. But undoubtedly, the account leads us up to a crescendo, depicting the return of Christ and the Millennial Kingdom.

I believe that there are several accounts referring to Jesus' Coming in the book, and a multitude of images depicting the same, though not necessarily happening at the time of that event. It's amazing how many images are used traditionally associated with Christ's coming. Lightning is seen in vision after vision, and who knows whether this is just happening to John in a vision, or if these things will literally happen with each event?

 

[Keraz]

I summarize Revelation with: Look out! It’s all going to happen and we should be aware and prepared for it. Be not in the dark as Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 5:3-4
Actually the first Five Seals were opened at Christ’s Ascension, as per Revelation 5 and 6:1-11 and Zechariah 6:1-7
Proved by the terrible wars, famines and plagues we have experienced since then.
The Fifth Seal is obviously open and all the souls of the martyrs since Stephen are kept under the Altar in heaven.

Then the Sixth Seal: the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath, is the next prophesied event we can expect, with its dramatic cosmic and world shaking things prophesied, triggered by an attack upon Israel. Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12

This worldwide disaster will cause the nations to combine in a One World Government, but we Christians will be motivated to go to and settle in all of the holy Land. Isaiah 62:1-5 We are seen there by John in Revelation 7:9-14 and when the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls starts: in Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7 and in Revelation 12:14-17. We see how some Christians are taken to a place of safety for those 1260 days, but the rest must remain in the holy Land while under the control of the 'beast', Revelation 13:5-7. Daniel 11:32-35 tells how the Lord’s people are divided at this time. Zechariah 14:1-2 describes this conquest.

All this information is given to us before it happens so we are without excuse if we fail to take note of and understand God's Plans for the end times. Amos 3:7, Revelation 1:1-3
The proof that we ARE in the end times, is all the time periods as given in the Bible up to the conquest of Judah by Babylon in 586 BC and from then until today: adds up to 5989 years, +/- 1 or 2 years.

People can argue against the truth of mankind being given 6000 years to rule themselves and then Jesus will rule for 1000 years, however; this decreed time can be plainly discerned from the Bible. The Creation as per Genesis 1, models this period.
The fact is that there were exactly 2000 years from Adam to Abraham, another 2000 years Abraham to Jesus, so it is logical to assume there will be 2000 years of this Christian era to complete, which will finally demonstrate our inability to self rule. The reign of Jesus for the final 1000 years will show that His rule of benevolent dictatorship is the best form of Government.

 

[Jay Ross]

Yea, thanks for that. I do see a narrative sequence, but telling a story doesn't always represent a timeline of the things being mentioned

Yes that is true. I like to consider that the Book of Revelations is broken up into sections which deal with particular entities. For example: -

Chapter 13 deals with the demonic entities of the four faceted beast and the False Prophet/the little horn.

Chapter 19 deals with events surrounding Christ during the Millennium Age.

Chapter 20 deals with Satan during the Millennium Age as well.​

We are also told the the scorpions, the four facetted beast, the False Prophet and Satan go into the pit at the beginning of the Millennium Age and are released after the first 1,000 years of the Millennium Age has passed. In each case we are told that they all rise up out of the Bottomless pit where they were imprisoned after the fulfilment of Isaiah 24:21-22.

Something else to consider is that the meaning of the Greek word, "seismos" is better understood to have the meaning of "turmoil" rather than the traditional translation understanding of "earthquake." Turmoil is associated with war and disturbances associated with civil unrest.

Revelation 16:17-21 when "seismos" is considered to be associated with turmoil, as happened during the last centaury with the events of WW1 and WW2 and other wars, we can recognise that Babylon was recognised by both Brittan and France by agreement between them in 1926 with the formation of an entity having control over the Land of the Chaldeans, and the UN resolution that divided Jerusalem into three independently controlled segments that were controlled by the UN, Brittan and Jordan. The imagery used in this particular "Seventh Bowl Judgement," arcuately describes the Artillery and bombing barrages that occurred during both wars where people and the fighting men hid in holes in the ground so as not be consumed by what was falling from out of the sky.

However, you may not want to consider such a possibility and may have a very different understanding of this bowl judgement.

Shalom

and

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes that is true. I like to consider that the Book of Revelations is broken up into sections which deal with particular entities. For example: -

Chapter 13 deals with the demonic entities of the four faceted beast and the False Prophet/the little horn.

Chapter 19 deals with events surrounding Christ during the Millennium Age.

Chapter 20 deals with Satan during the Millennium Age as well.​

We are also told the the scorpions, the four facetted beast, the False Prophet and Satan go into the pit at the beginning of the Millennium Age and are released after the first 1,000 years of the Millennium Age has passed. In each case we are told that they all rise up out of the Bottomless pit where they were imprisoned after the fulfilment of Isaiah 24:21-22.

Something else to consider is that the meaning of the Greek word, "seismos" is better understood to have the meaning of "turmoil" rather than the traditional translation understanding of "earthquake." Turmoil is associated with war and disturbances associated with civil unrest.

Revelation 16:17-21 when "seismos" is considered to be associated with turmoil, as happened during the last centaury with the events of WW1 and WW2 and other wars, we can recognise that Babylon was recognised by both Brittan and France by agreement between them in 1926 with the formation of an entity having control over the Land of the Chaldeans, and the UN resolution that divided Jerusalem into three independently controlled segments that were controlled by the UN, Brittan and Jordan. The imagery used in this particular "Seventh Bowl Judgement," arcuately describes the Artillery and bombing barrages that occurred during both wars where people and the fighting men hid in holes in the ground so as not be consumed by what was falling from out of the sky.

However, you may not want to consider such a possibility and may have a very different understanding of this bowl judgement.

Shalom

and

Yea, I have different views of the "bowls," but I enjoyed your perspective. I think seismos does sound like earthquakes, but I do think the "earthquakes" are mere visions, depicting things that "shake the earth," just as Haggai records:

2.6 “This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘In a little while I will once more shake the heavens and the earth, the sea and the dry land. 7 I will shake all nations, and what is desired by all nations will come, and I will fill this house with glory,’ says the Lord Almighty."

Yes, the World War images of men hiding in trenches or in bunkers is obviously part of what God's future judgment meant to depict, at least in part. Bombs coming out of the sky takes particular meaning in the age of modern technology, and is now assuming apocalyptic proportions with the advent of the atomic bomb.

I have a somewhat different time frame for some of the items you mentioned. Some of what you believe will happen in the Millennium I believe will happen before the Millennium, though we both are clearly Premillennial. I don't fully understand the Abyss, and have been grappling with that for a long time. But I do agree with you that certain parts of the Revelation focus on particular events, rather than just present a timeline of events.

For example, I agree that Rev 13 comes right out of Dan 7, where the 4th Beast emerges, in the endtimes as 7 heads and 10 horns, with a Little Horn, also called a "beast," emerges to control them all. I think this is the best way to approach the Revelation--one vision at a time, rather than try to fit it all into a chronology.

For the most part, I believe it is focusing on a 3.5 year period of time at the end of the age in which Antichrist will persecute the saints, and the saints will prevail in their testimony. And it will be our testimony that will call upon Christ to judge the world.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I summarize Revelation with: Look out! It’s all going to happen and we should be aware and prepared for it. Be not in the dark as Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 5:3-4
Actually the first Five Seals were opened at Christ’s Ascension, as per Revelation 5 and 6:1-11 and Zechariah 6:1-7
Proved by the terrible wars, famines and plagues we have experienced since then.
The Fifth Seal is obviously open and all the souls of the martyrs since Stephen are kept under the Altar in heaven.

Then the Sixth Seal: the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath, is the next prophesied event we can expect, with its dramatic cosmic and world shaking things prophesied, triggered by an attack upon Israel. Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12

This worldwide disaster will cause the nations to combine in a One World Government, but we Christians will be motivated to go to and settle in all of the holy Land. Isaiah 62:1-5 We are seen there by John in Revelation 7:9-14 and when the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls starts: in Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7 and in Revelation 12:14-17. We see how some Christians are taken to a place of safety for those 1260 days, but the rest must remain in the holy Land while under the control of the 'beast', Revelation 13:5-7. Daniel 11:32-35 tells how the Lord’s people are divided at this time. Zechariah 14:1-2 describes this conquest.

All this information is given to us before it happens so we are without excuse if we fail to take note of and understand God's Plans for the end times. Amos 3:7, Revelation 1:1-3
The proof that we ARE in the end times, is all the time periods as given in the Bible up to the conquest of Judah by Babylon in 586 BC and from then until today: adds up to 5989 years, +/- 1 or 2 years.

People can argue against the truth of mankind being given 6000 years to rule themselves and then Jesus will rule for 1000 years, however; this decreed time can be plainly discerned from the Bible. The Creation as per Genesis 1, models this period.
The fact is that there were exactly 2000 years from Adam to Abraham, another 2000 years Abraham to Jesus, so it is logical to assume there will be 2000 years of this Christian era to complete, which will finally demonstrate our inability to self rule. The reign of Jesus for the final 1000 years will show that His rule of benevolent dictatorship is the best form of Government.

I do agree with the sexta-septa millennial day theory. But it's a little questionable how exact the period of time was from Adam to Abraham. Generally, I think we're close to the 6000th year, but cannot really know exactly. 2240 On the Jewish calendar? Year 6000 - Wikipedia

I do see that the 7 seals began to open in the time of Christ, since that is when the initial signs of Jewish judgment began. And I do see it as possible that major judgments are triggering important eschatological changes in our day. I believe the 6th seal depicts the coming of Christ, but it could also conceivably depict a major judgment prior to that, as well.

I do believe the martyred saints are stored up as evidence in court against the Antichrist and his judgment. And I do believe Christians, in our day, are beginning to focus our prayers on God's concern to restore Israel to the true Christian religion.

I just don't happen to share your view that we will be sort of "raptured" to that land literally. Our influence there will likely be by prayer, and not by actual visitation. I do find it sad that many Christians have dismissed any interest in the land of Israel as something menial and carnal. The land still has, I think, a role to play in the endtimes.

 

[Keraz]

I just don't happen to share your view that we will be sort of "raptured" to that land literally. Our influence there will likely be by prayer, and not by actual visitation. I do find it sad that many Christians have dismissed any interest in the land of Israel as something menial and carnal. The land still has, I think, a role to play in the endtimes.

Psalms 107 tells a great story of this migration of every faithful Christian into all of the holy Land. Nothing like a 'rapture' at all.
Isaiah 35 describes it well.
Isaiah 62:1-5 says how the Lord will bless His people there and Romans 9:24-26 confirms it.