Saved Or Predestined ???

[Renniks]

Greetings Renniks! Please consider studying the following scriptures.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

That's pretty plain and clear ~ was chosen for salvation from the beginning.

If there were people chosen for salvation, it follows that others were not. Clearly, that demonstrates and speaks a lot about God's character and nature, firstly His absolute sovereignty. You seem to imply that if that were the case, God is unjust. And on what basis? Does scriptures say that? If not, then where is that coming from? Does it come from your personal take of what is just and what is unjust. Anyway, let me show you scriptures that speaks about the sovereignty of God and which tells us that there is no unrighteousness when God gives mercy to some and not to all, or when God hardens some people and not all.

Romans 9:10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

I'd say verse 20 would remind men who they are in relation to God and shuts the mouths of those who seem to put in question the sovereign acts of God regarding His election, either of a people (to be His people) to salvation, or of people and individuals to serve His purpose/s.

Tong
R0027

You completely misunderstand Romans 9.
It's not about being chosen for salvation.
And verse 20 isn't about questioning God's sovereignty. Did you notice that the objector actually believes people can't resist God's will, but Paul confirms we can?

 

[Tong2020]

It is pretty plain... [apo] never means "at" or "before", but means "distance away from", since the beginning.

Secondly. who is "you"? "chose you for salvation through sanctification"? It is the brethren (v.1) who are not perishing like the wicked who "did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved" (v.10). Paul blames their perishing to their rejection of the Gospel, not to any predestination from the beginning! To reject something, it must have been a real and true offer and not a trick to bait and condemn someone. "in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness." (v.12). No suggestion that they were left out and predestined to damnation from the beginning... but because of their free-will and choice. Verse 13 defines "YOU" in context as those who did not reject the Gospel, but believers who accepted the truth.

But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you,(those that believe and have received the Gospel) brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning (since, from the start of time to the present) chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth... (not chosen because of some fictional predestination and predetermined fate, but on the condition of belief in the truth).

Just like in Ephesians, the plan of God to save those who would receive the gracious offer of salvation by faith was known since the beginning. It is the predestination of the Body, the Church, based upon individual grafted in by faith. ​

It's pretty plain and clear ~ that Paul never speaks of any fatalism of the individual to Heaven or Hell. People get saved in time, not by some act of fate in the past. This is spoken of everywhere in Scripture as something in the present. There is no predestination in Scripture that says that salvation is only waking up to the fact that you were never lost, but saved at the beginning by fate. ​

That's right, the "you" whom God chose for salvation, refers to the Christians. Now, no one is saying that those mentioned in verse 10, who obviously were not among those chosen by God for salvation, were predestined from the beginning to damnation. Nothing is said to that effect in 2 Thess. 2:13, nor did I say anything to that effect in my post.

It's a mistake to take the phrase "through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth" to be a condition of God's election. That would be forcing the verse to mean something it does not say. The said phrase is a modifier of the salvation for which the election was for. It is "salvation" that the phrase is a modifier of and not the election or choosing.

Here's what is clear of the subject verse. That God chose people for salvation and not the other way around, that people who are saved are chosen by God for salvation, which obviously is absurd. Also notice what Paul said at the start of the verse, it says "we are bound to give thanks to God always for you...". And why? Paul moves on to say the reason for that ~ "because God from the beginning chose you for salvation". Do you see now that their salvation is God's doing, God's work that they ought to thank God for.

Tong
R0033

 

[Tong2020]

@bbyrd009 It was a powerful vision given to Marietta Davis by God, when she fell into a coma, you should go check out the book "Nine Days in Heaven." She saw Heaven and Hell in the vision.

I'm sorry to say that I find that that she is somewhat deceived, wadr. Why I say that is easily based on your previous statement in post #30, saying "...Marietta Davis I believe her name was, was taken up to heaven and saw all the infants that have died, she saw them in Heaven."

She sure don't have an omniscient eyes that she saw ALL the infants that have died and could tell, nor have knowledge as to who are ALL the infants that have died and could tell. That by itself strongly suggest of being a false testimony, regardless of her person.

Tong
R0034

 

[Tong2020]

We are predestined based on Gods foreknowledge. Whom he foreknew he did predestination

Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

To have that verse say that the predestination spoken there is based on God's foreknowledge is a mistake. I suggest a re-reading.

Tong
R0035

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

One of the biggest problems is that too many people, including most on this forum, know to little about the entirety of Christianity to even comprehend the topic of predestination, but believe they know enough in their ignorance and their arrogance to explain a fragmented, worthless meaning of their making, and believe in their ignorance how to be saved, but are BANKRUPT of any saving knowledge.

If you study the true history of Christianity, you'll find early teachings started to become heresy during Paul's time, and have just continued to get worse.

God has already addressed that problem in Matthew 7:14, and Luke 13:23-24, and Matthew 7:21.

Another problem is that the same people don't want the hard choices they have to make to live God's way, just like the Jews before Jesus came.

1st Peter 4:18 says, " If it is with difficulty that the righteous is saved, what will become of the Godless man and the sinner."

The way to salvation has been changed so much over 2000 years using twisted meanings of the scriptures, and the Catholic churches prohibiting scriptural exercise in faith where many were martyred for the actions that were banned, that now there is no way to be saved in ANY church.
Just a twisted and diluted easy faith that gives new followers nothing but a path to the edge of a cliff of "satans" PERMANENT destruction.

Spend 42 years studying the bible like I did, now 77 years old, and you'll find out how ignorant you are just like I did decades ago.


My name is OLIGOS

 

[Taken]

Yes, He choses each whom He Knows will be born, and IF they will choose Him.

Complete falsehood here.

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

The ignorance here is beyond sad and the constant bickering is an ABOMINATION TO GOD.


Where's the good even if your right and condemn yourself as you defy God by the constant hateful talk that brings destruction to each one here.

 

[Renniks]

Before all creation, whatever future you are talking about that God sees ahead and knows, could only be that which God has determined to do (plan) and allowed to come to pass (accomplish according to His plan). So, having said that, God's foreknowledge could only be anything but what He determined to do (plan) and that which will come to pass according to His plan. There is nothing that happens that God does not know and does not allow to happen. There simply is no random event for God. God's foreknowledge is not of things that happens in random but of things which God has determined to do (plan) and allowed to come to pass (accomplish according to His plan). This is critical in that, an erroneous take with regards the foreknowledge of God leads to erroneous understanding and doctrines.

How do you know the mind of God? Men have debated these concepts for thousands of years. But the consensus among the earliest church fathers was that free will is real and in fact, fatalism was a gnostic, heresy.

 

[Renniks]

Greetings Rocky Wiley!

Of course God forces no one to accept. But that does not mean that He could not cause one to freely accept. There is no heart so hard that God could not soften and no man so wicked that He could not convict, convince, and convert. The bottom line being is that, it's just a matter of His will, purpose, pleasure, and glory, as to whom He will have mercy and whom He will harden.

You said "God is just and there will come the end of the age and those who never had the option of coming to God will be judged according to the life they lived." Those who never had the option of coming to God (and perhaps you are referring even to those whom the gospel had not reached), wouldn't you agree that they are sinners? And so, if they are, what judgement do you think awaits them, other than death, even the second death?

Tong
R0029

Only God says that man's sin grieves him. God says they did things that never entered his mind. God says he repented of creating them. What you are proposing is nothing less than fatalism. Nothing matters if everything is predetermined. Try living as if this were true for one day. It's impossible.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Please tell me Josho, that you don't actually believe this?

What?
That she had a vision?
That there were babies in heaven?

 

[Tong2020]

I read it. [apo] never means "at" or "before" the beginning, but distance "from", away from, since." Salvation happens in the moment, not in the fatalistic past. The Scriptures are clear. God elects the Church, and individuals are only part of it if they receive it.

The context is plain and clear that God saves those that receive and believe since the beginning.

God inspired Scripture and only used [prooridzo] five times. Not once is it used to say that any individual is predestined to heaven or hell... how did God miss this opportunity to say it?

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

Although it could be argued that the Greek "apo" can mean from, away from, of, than, since, it does not take away the fact in the verse and my point in citing it, that God chose people for salvation. And as I have pointed out in post #102, what is clear is that God chose people for salvation and not the other way around which seems to be your position, that people who are saved are chosen by God for salvation ~ which obviously is absurd. Also notice what Paul said at the start of the verse, it says "we are bound to give thanks to God always for you...". And why? Paul moves on to say the reason for that ~ "because God from (or since as you prefer) the beginning chose you for salvation". Do you see now that their salvation is God's doing, God's work that they ought to thank God for.

You said "God inspired Scripture and only used [prooridzo] five times. Not once is it used to say that any individual is predestined to heaven or hell.". What has that got to do with the subject verse under discussion? Do you want us to discuss other verses now concerning predestination? Okay then. Perhaps, scriptures does not say it in the language you say there as "predestined to heaven or hell.". But certainly, the predestination does not suggest anything but that *leads to heaven. Consider the following scriptures:

Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Tong
R0036

*Edited to include words supposed to have been typed in and are significant part of the statement.

 

[CharismaticLady]

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

Although it could be argued that the Greek "apo" can mean from, away from, of, than, since, it does not take away the fact in the verse and my point in citing it, that God chose people for salvation. And as I have pointed out in post #102, what is clear is that God chose people for salvation and not the other way around which seems to be your position, that people who are saved are chosen by God for salvation ~ which obviously is absurd. Also notice what Paul said at the start of the verse, it says "we are bound to give thanks to God always for you...". And why? Paul moves on to say the reason for that ~ "because God from (or since as you prefer) the beginning chose you for salvation". Do you see now that their salvation is God's doing, God's work that they ought to thank God for.

You said "God inspired Scripture and only used [prooridzo] five times. Not once is it used to say that any individual is predestined to heaven or hell.". What has that got to do with the subject verse under discussion? Do you want us to discuss other verses now concerning predestination? Okay then. Perhaps, scriptures does not say it in the language you say there as "predestined to heaven or hell.". But certainly, the predestination does not suggest anything but that. Consider the following scriptures:

Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Tong
R0036

People that were predestined were the Jews, His chosen people for a specific purpose. But not all Jews were saved. But from the beginning He wanted to set up a plan where everyone could be saved, including the Gentiles. That doesn't mean that all Gentiles will be saved either. It is Calvinism that has twisted this to mean that some have no choice but to be damned, and others have no choice but to be saved.

 

[Tong2020]

You completely misunderstand Romans 9.
It's not about being chosen for salvation.
And verse 20 isn't about questioning God's sovereignty. Did you notice that the objector actually believes people can't resist God's will, but Paul confirms we can?

Please substantiate all that you say there. Saying just that does not make your case.

Tong
R0037

 

[Enoch111]

Predestination and election, strictly speaking, are not for believers, but speaks of and about the children of God.

What do you think believers are other than the children of God?

You said "All may be saved if all will obey the Gospel." If obedience is the basis, then I don't believe there is not even one who will be saved.

Do you understand what obedience to the Gospel is? Repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21). And since God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30) all may be saved if all will repent. Nineveh is a good example.

Furthermore, sinful man is described by scriptures as to be a slave to sin and he only obey his master, that is sin.

This is the Calvinistic FALLACY of *total depravity*. However the Bible is perfectly clear that unregenerated men can and must believe the Gospel under the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Read and study Acts 2.

how do you relate the election for salvation and predestination to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ with the freedom of choice of the individual?

As I have already shown election is NOT for salvation, since God offers salvation to all humanity. When the Gospel is preached the hearers must either believe the Gospel and obey it, or disbelieve and be damned. That is freedom of choice. God compels no one to be saved, as you will note in the Bible.

 

[Enoch111]

No.one seeks God. No man can come. You are wrong on this.

Why don't you simply believe what God says?
1. The Father draws men to the Savior
2. The Son draws men to the Savior
3. The Holy Spirit draws men to the Savior
If all would repent, all would be saved.

And God Himself tells you to seek Him. So you are in opposition to God.

ISAIAH 55
1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.

3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.

5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nationsthat knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.

6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Therefore if no one can seek Him why would God ask for the impossible?

 

[Tong2020]

How do you know the mind of God? Men have debated these concepts for thousands of years. But the consensus among the earliest church fathers was that free will is real and in fact, fatalism was a gnostic, heresy.

That men have debated these concepts for thousands of years does not mean no one had the right understanding about that. Nor does the consensus among so-called early "church fathers" (which is definitely not the language of scriptures), that free will is real and in fact, and fatalism was agnostic heresy, does not refute what I said in my post. For I did not even mention free will nor is talking about fatalism. So, if you will and if you have a refutation, please go ahead and refute. Else then, if you can't refute, you might want to go back to the Bible and examine what I posted, if it is in keeping with the truth in scriptures.

You asked "How do you know the mind of God"? Why do you ask? Had I said anything that you consider is the mind of God?

Tong
R0041

 

[Tong2020]

Only God says that man's sin grieves him. God says they did things that never entered his mind. God says he repented of creating them. What you are proposing is nothing less than fatalism. Nothing matters if everything is predetermined. Try living as if this were true for one day. It's impossible.

No Renniks. And I am not proposing anything there. I am far from talking about fatalism. So, you may stop thinking that I am talking about fatalism. So please read what I posted again, without that thought, and perhaps you will have a different understanding of what I am saying there.

Tong
R0042

 

[Taken]

[QUOTE="Tong2020, post: 738702, member: 8685]

Matthew 1:21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
[/QUOTE]

Yes.

No. The Greek word translated "predestined" in scriptures is "proorizó" which means to predetermine, foreordain. What you say there is different and not what "predestined" is.

God KNOWS (from Before any man was Created)...He preordained, prepares....people do NOT KNOW, until they are born, live, hear, and ELECT to Choose Him...THEN What God ALREADY KNEW...becomes accomplished.

To my knowledge, scriptures does not say what you say there. Please show scriptures, if there is any, that says that.

What scriptures says regarding the election or choosing of God of people is:

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

The election was for salvation. So, it could not be that they were chosen because they chose God or because they believed in the truth, for belief in the truth is through which God will save them, and is not the basis of God's election.

Besides, God could not have chosen them because they believed in Him and love him. For, if ever they came to believe and love God, it is because God loved them first.

Love is a connecting issue, but not the topic.
Your possibility to Love God, is "because" He is Love and first Loved you...yet if you were a babe, didn't know what Love is or heard of God...how would you love Him?

Tong,
* What God Does and Offers IS ONE thing.
* What An Individual does is another thing.

For God and a single Individual to Establish a Relationship...The Relationship, Acceptable TO God...IS set BY Gods "Conditions" for the Individual to Accept AND be in Agreement with God.

**** God Reveals:
The Conditions
(Heartful Belief, Your WORD of Agreement)
**** God Reveals:
What ALL He has (before mankind was created) "prepared" TO "Freely" GIVE Any man, (He already knows)...ONCE the man "accomplishes" the "conditions".
****God reveals:
What ALL He has (before mankind was created) "prepared" to Give Any man, (He already Knows)...Will Reject Gods OFFER.

God loves All of His Creations...Period.
Of His Creations (specifically mankind)...
His Love does Not Change, whether or not anyone Loves Him back.
****What Is Changing NOW:
Is: the DIVISION among men:
(God Divided, In the beginning...
Men who Chose to meet His Conditions...
From men who Chose to Not meet His Conditions.)

Ex 8:
[23] And I will put a division between my people and thy people: to morrow shall this sign be.

(Jesus revealed His Division.)

Luke 12:
[51] Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
John.7
[43] So there was a division "among the people" because of him.

Every day People are Choosing...The Lord God AND Choosing ... to Reject the Lord God.

Men are Choosing to accept Gods Offering of Salvation...and Forever Spiritual Life With God...or Rejecting His Offer.

Those who MAKE NO Choice...are Accounted "Against God".

Matt 12:
[30] He that is not with me is against me; and he that "gathereth" not with me "scatterth" abroad.

God knew from Before mankind was Created...What Every Individual would Choose.

Men KNOW what "they Choose"... After "They" have made "their" individual Choice.

Whatever an Individual "Chooses"...
God HAS Already Prepared (pre-Ordained...Pre- Determined...Pre-Destin) "everything" God has For that Individual.

There IS Coming a Time of Great Tribulation Up the Earth ... AND "Separation" of the things that have been Being DIVIDED, from the Beginning.

Men Divided WITH God...will be Separated FROM those who Are Against God.
( gathering and scattering ).

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Tong-
You appear confused about predestined.

It is NOT God lining up all men He would create and randomly picking this person and that to be Saved or Not.

It is precisely about Who "after they are created," Will Choose God to be "their God."

Many ARE Called...(told, heard, taught, about God...and Reject Him)...thus OF the Many who are called...Few will Accept God, Choose Him...thus He will Choose the Few, who Chose Him.
(He forces No one to Choose Him)

And He Saves No one that Does Not Choose Him.

Matt 22:
[14] For many are called, but few are chosen.

That is not a surprise to the ALL knowing God. He has "Prepared" for those that Choose Him and those that Do Not.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Renniks]

Please substantiate all that you say there. Saying just that does not make your case.

Tong
R0037

Read the whole book instead of just a few verses in the center of the ninth chapter... and read it without any Calvinist glasses on. It's obvious.