Interpretation, application, and lack of fulfillment are in my eyes the biggest issues with what believers describe as end-time prophecy. In this thread I'd like to focus on WHO the audience was that was being addressed by the so called prophet, the time frame laid out by the prophecy (WHEN), WHAT was specified in the prophecy that was supposed to happen, and WHETHER or not the event unfolded.
The Problems With End Times Prophecy
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@Bobby Jo These require more than a bit of a leap and necessitate one to make assumptions that have little to no biblical backing. People living in any century for the past 1500 or so years could read themselves and their time period into the writings of Daniel and replace the moderns 20th and 21st century powers with the powers of their day and make the same argument you are asserting.
Why would the beast not be a reference to the Roman Empire of the 1st and 2nd century? Can you see how a case can be made that the Great Harlot likely referred to Jerusalem?
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
Nope. According to the angel's guidance in Dan. 12:4 & 9,the the words are "shut up and sealed until the time of the end". And reading further, no other generation has had the ability to travel some 60 to 600 mph, and no other generation has had virtually infinite knowledge literally at their fingertips.
“[The] five of whom are fallen [presumes John’s work to be written in] Vespasian’s reign. Titus is to come, but only to last for a short time. Perhaps the writer knew of the hopeless condition of Titus’ health. He is therefore either using a literary convention, and assuming an earlier date than is the fact to give his words the force of a prophecy concerning Titus, or, more likely, he is using here material written in Vespasian’s reign which partly suits his purpose and partly not; for there are very good reasons for thinking that this book was written, not in Vespasian’s reign, but in Domitian’s.”[1]
[1] Eiselen, Frederick, Edwin Lewis, & David Downey, The Abingdon Bible Commentary, Abingdon Press, NY, 1929, p. 1392
[1] Eiselen, Frederick, Edwin Lewis, & David Downey, The Abingdon Bible Commentary, Abingdon Press, NY, 1929, p. 1392
History refutes your argument, but supports Scripture.
Bobby Jo
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Since you identify yourself as an agnostic, you would have no clue about Bible prophecies. They are for Bible-believers, who have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
I disagree. I would argue that FACTS are FACTS, no matter the audience. So when we have a prophetic sequence of world empires we can evaluate it against what has transpired and discover whether Scripture is TRUE, or it's false:
Deut. 18:22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word which the Lord has not spoken ...
And as previously provided, I would would argue that Scripture is ABSOLUTELY TRUE, to the point where historians have not had access to FULL HISTORY for several decades, and then we discover that the FULL HISTORY agrees with the original ancient prophecy.
OR, -- people (agnostics and christians alike) can rationalize and justify disbelieving what the Scriptures provide. It happens all the time, including with @Enoch111!
Bobby Jo
Bible truth is spiritual truth, and spiritual truth must be discerned spiritually. Unless the Kingdom of God is kept in view, no prophecy will make sense. And unless Christ is kept in view as King of kings and Lord of lords, there cannot be an understanding of the Kingdom of God.
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
More hogwash. Do you think GOD is not rational, that HE doesn't present his TRUTHS so that anyone seeking HIS information can't see LITERAL WORDS and LITERAL THOUGHTS toward a LITERAL OCCURRENCE?
Religious people tend to hold themselves above others, and THAT's why GOD blinds the religious.
Bobby Jo
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
The 1st area I'll address are the last days. Based on what the Bible describes, what the writers asserted, and what the audience of the writers were expecting, I understand "THE LAST DAYS" to be the END OF THE COVENANT RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN PHYSICAL ISRAEL & GOD culminating with the utter destruction of the temple in a.d. 70. Take Jesus words as an example. When we look at the Matthew 24 prophesy reveals that Jesus told his followers that the things he was speaking of would occur within the life of that generation. Here are a couple more:
Jesus' generation quotes:
Matt 23:36 I tell you the truth; All that [guilt] will be laid on this generation!
Mark 13:30 I tell you the truth; This generation definitely won’t pass away until all these things occur.
Matt 12:39 And [Jesus] replied: A wicked and adulterous generation, looks for signs, but they will receive none, other than the sign of Jonah the Prophet. 40 For, just as Jonah was there in the belly, of the sea creature three days and three nights, so the Son of Man will then be, in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. 41 Men of Nineveh will be resurrected, in the Judgment Day with this generation, and they too will condemn it; For they repented at what Jonah preached. But look something more than Jonah is here! 42 The Queen of the South will be resurrected, in the Judgment Day with this generation, and she will also condemn it; For she came from the ends of the earth, to listen to Solomon's wisdom. But look something more than Solomon is here!
Matt 24:33 Likewise, when you see all of these things, know that he's near at the doors! 34 I tell you the truth; This generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away!
Jesus' generation quotes:
Matt 23:36 I tell you the truth; All that [guilt] will be laid on this generation!
Mark 13:30 I tell you the truth; This generation definitely won’t pass away until all these things occur.
Matt 12:39 And [Jesus] replied: A wicked and adulterous generation, looks for signs, but they will receive none, other than the sign of Jonah the Prophet. 40 For, just as Jonah was there in the belly, of the sea creature three days and three nights, so the Son of Man will then be, in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. 41 Men of Nineveh will be resurrected, in the Judgment Day with this generation, and they too will condemn it; For they repented at what Jonah preached. But look something more than Jonah is here! 42 The Queen of the South will be resurrected, in the Judgment Day with this generation, and she will also condemn it; For she came from the ends of the earth, to listen to Solomon's wisdom. But look something more than Solomon is here!
Matt 24:33 Likewise, when you see all of these things, know that he's near at the doors! 34 I tell you the truth; This generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away!
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
If you can't grasp the obvious, then the obscure is much more difficult. So try the Dan. Chapter 2 sequence of world empires, -- which are HISTORICALLY verifiable.
It doesn't get any more simple (and verifiable) than Recorded Word History.
Bobby Jo
Most modern scholars agree that the four world empires symbolized by the statue are Babylon (the head), the Medes (arms and shoulders), Persia (thighs and legs) and Seleucid Syria and Ptolemaic Egypt (the feet). The consensus among scholars is that the four beasts of chapter 7 symbolize the same four world empires. Verses 41-43 give three different interpretations of the meaning of the mixture of iron and clay in the statue's feet, as a "divided kingdom," then as "strong and brittle," and finally as a dynastic marriage. The marriage might be to either of two between the Seleucids and the Ptolemies, the first in c.250 BCE and the second in 193 BCE. That said, the idea that the 4 kingdoms are Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome are not likely supported by the text.
The symbolic significance of the stone which destroys the statue and becomes a mountain evokes biblical imagery of God as the "rock" of Israel, Zion as a mountain rising above all others, and God's glory filling the whole world. Images from the Book of Isaiah seem to be evoked by the author as the image of the shattered statue blown away in the wind like chaff from the threshing floor brings to mind Isaiah 41:13–16 where Israel is a threshing sled that turns mountains into chaff.
See: https://www.amazon.com/Daniel-Inter...w+sibley+towner&qid=1594336735&s=books&sr=1-2
https://www.amazon.com/Old-Testament-Text-Context/dp/0801048354/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8
The symbolic significance of the stone which destroys the statue and becomes a mountain evokes biblical imagery of God as the "rock" of Israel, Zion as a mountain rising above all others, and God's glory filling the whole world. Images from the Book of Isaiah seem to be evoked by the author as the image of the shattered statue blown away in the wind like chaff from the threshing floor brings to mind Isaiah 41:13–16 where Israel is a threshing sled that turns mountains into chaff.
See: https://www.amazon.com/Daniel-Inter...w+sibley+towner&qid=1594336735&s=books&sr=1-2
https://www.amazon.com/Old-Testament-Text-Context/dp/0801048354/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
Could you be FURTHER from the truth? I think not.
Most scholars propose:
1. Gold, Babylon
2. Silver, Medo/Perisa
3. Bronze, Greece
4.a. Iron, Rome
4.b. Clay, European Union
... which is FALSE.2. Silver, Medo/Perisa
3. Bronze, Greece
4.a. Iron, Rome
4.b. Clay, European Union
Dan. 2:45 says: Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE. Furthermore, History accounts that we are in the FIFTH "Divided Kingdom" consisting of THREE SUPERPOWERS and a UNITED NATIONS, -- which Dan. 7 delineates.
But you were NEVER seeking the TRUTH of Scripture and History, so why pretend now?
Bobby Jo
You are confusing Biblical Millennial Apologists who add their dogma into the text with scholars that actually study the the text, the audience the text was contemporary to, etc.
Again, making the Last Days spoken of in scripture applicable to the generation of the 21st century as opposed to the generation of the 1st century believers to who the texts were written to and about is an error.
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
... religious ignorance/agendas/doctrines, versus Scripture and History. And the only one that counts is the latter.
So pursue the former ALL YOU WANT, but the result of a LIE is always disaster. Conversely the result of TRUTH is success.
Bobby Jo
truth-OT, I do not see Biblical prophecy as very convincing to lend itself to the debate of the existence of God or the reliability of the Bible. Others might find it convincing place to start a discussion, but I don't find that it has much convincing power to an agnostic or atheist. NOT that I don't think that prophecies did, in fact, come true, but just that to the skeptic, they can too easily write them off as nothing more than something akin to horoscopes. Eg.: a bunch of general vague allusions, and then dismiss those that didn't coincidentally come true, and latch on to the ones that did. Ie.: Selective memory bias.
But consider this : Let's look at the accusation of "that's too general" or "that was just shoe-horned in to make it fit" or "that's no different than cold-reading". Ok, fair enough. So the only way for the prophet to escape that accusation, would be to make it more specific. So .... instead of vague things, that could-be-said to apply to a myriad of things, they should be SPECIFIC. So that there can be no mistaking that it's 'fulfilled prophecy', eh ?
So for example, I can spin a tale of how you might succeed in business, and marry a nice gal, blah blah. And .... lo & behold, it might all come true ! Does that mean I'm a prophet ? OF COURSE NOT. Since lots of people "succeed in business" and "get married". Doh ! But wait, if I told you her name and phone # and social security # 10 yrs. earlier, then PRESTO : No one could argue and call that "vague" eh ?
However, guess what would happen next, if this had been the level of detail that those old testament prophets had listed ? Sure as heck, someone in 30 AD, would merely "fulfill all those specifics" (get their phone # and social security # assigned) and proclaim : See ? I fulfilled it. In other words, anyone could have simply gone-through the steps of satisfying all-such-specifics, and then proudly proclaim that "a prophecy was fulfilled". When in reality all it was, is someone following a cook-book recipe of what-was-needed to fulfill a prophecy. Doh !
So there's sort of a "durned if you do" and "durned if you don't" element built into this . The accusations will be never-ending. So IMHO, the biblical prophecies were a sort of thing where it WASN'T apparent till AFTER the fulfillment (ie.: not down to phone #'s and addresses, lest someone simply walk-that-route-to-show-it). But yes, I realize this simply lends itself to "too vague".
Thus it's a durned if you do and durned if you don't scenario. So I never rely on fulfilled prophecy to argue for the existence of God.
But consider this : Let's look at the accusation of "that's too general" or "that was just shoe-horned in to make it fit" or "that's no different than cold-reading". Ok, fair enough. So the only way for the prophet to escape that accusation, would be to make it more specific. So .... instead of vague things, that could-be-said to apply to a myriad of things, they should be SPECIFIC. So that there can be no mistaking that it's 'fulfilled prophecy', eh ?
So for example, I can spin a tale of how you might succeed in business, and marry a nice gal, blah blah. And .... lo & behold, it might all come true ! Does that mean I'm a prophet ? OF COURSE NOT. Since lots of people "succeed in business" and "get married". Doh ! But wait, if I told you her name and phone # and social security # 10 yrs. earlier, then PRESTO : No one could argue and call that "vague" eh ?
However, guess what would happen next, if this had been the level of detail that those old testament prophets had listed ? Sure as heck, someone in 30 AD, would merely "fulfill all those specifics" (get their phone # and social security # assigned) and proclaim : See ? I fulfilled it. In other words, anyone could have simply gone-through the steps of satisfying all-such-specifics, and then proudly proclaim that "a prophecy was fulfilled". When in reality all it was, is someone following a cook-book recipe of what-was-needed to fulfill a prophecy. Doh !
So there's sort of a "durned if you do" and "durned if you don't" element built into this . The accusations will be never-ending. So IMHO, the biblical prophecies were a sort of thing where it WASN'T apparent till AFTER the fulfillment (ie.: not down to phone #'s and addresses, lest someone simply walk-that-route-to-show-it). But yes, I realize this simply lends itself to "too vague".
Thus it's a durned if you do and durned if you don't scenario. So I never rely on fulfilled prophecy to argue for the existence of God.
Well stated. I understand your points and they make a lot of sense. The idea that more specific prophecies could have a self-fulfilling aspect would leave an opening for skepticism is real, however, even with that being the reality if ALL prophecies happened exactly as predicted down to the nth detail, that would be strong evidence for the truth-worthiness of the narrative as many things about the future are hard to predict and control the execution of (The current pandemic is an example).
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
DOGMA? You cite a FALSE HISTOICAL RECORD, and you accuse ME of DOGMA? REALLY?
Perhaps YOUR DOGMA has blinded you to any semblance of TRUTH, but both Scripture and History agree.
Bobby Jo
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