The Vision--another look

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Randy Kluth

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David Wilkerson's "The Vision"--a brief critique.
Did this vision pass the smell test? I think so. Although I have wavered about it for many years I couldn't help but apply it to my life and benefit from its words. I think I was just uncomfortable with not knowing for sure, since it is not written in the typical biblical format. It is a modern vision.

A major focus of the Vision is on economics, in stating that an initial period of prosperity, with inflation, would lead to a shaky economy, with a great recession in the future. Did this happen?

For sure. After '73, when this Vision came out, we had the Arab Oil Crisis, which led to serious inflation. But Reagan took over from Carter, and established a stable economy with real prosperity.

9-11 in 2001 brought about a huge dip in our economic security, and we had financial stress and bankruptcy among corporations, including flight and car companies. Some bailouts began under Bush's tenure, and continued under Obama's term, when Democratic liberalism became more of a Democratic socialism.

This popular agenda appealed to human greed, advocated for special human rights, and promised programs financed by the wealthy. The national debt doubled to 20 trillion dollars. During Obama's presidency the economy suffered a very slow recovery, setting up an interest in businessman Trump.

Under Trump, the economy started doing well again, with low unemployment and a booming stock market. But it came crashing down with the pandemic. And now, several trillions more have been added to the national debt, I'm sure.

This follows The Vision's pattern of increasing economic insecurity, leading to a great recession. And the bankruptcy of corporations was specifically predicted, and took place most definitely after 9-11.

Another major focus of the Vision was on unpredictable or strange weather. I remember my wife and I, after having read The Vision, recalled Wilkerson saying this:

"Words like violent, record, unseasonal, and record-breaking keep appearing in weather forecasts everywhere." We saw these very words over and over again in the news. We haven't seen the major earthquake he predicted, but we have seen the strange weather patterns. And he did predict an outbreak of epidemics, like cholera.

Another major focus of the Vision was on a moral landslide. Nothing has been more specific or fulfilled! These things seem normal now, but back when The Vision came out it was almost unthinkable--toplessness on TV, triple x-rated movies on TV after midnight (cable TV), explicit sex education in public schools, a homosexual epidemic, and sexual corruption in the ministry. Think Swaggart and Baker, among other televangelists falling in this "moral landslide."

The "gay movement" back in '73, when The Vision came out, had very little political support and had not yet become mainstream. It was, at the time, unthinkable for many.

Another major focus of the Vision was on a unique kind of youth problem. Whereas in my time young people "ran away," or "dropped out," Wilkerson predicted stay-at-home youths who hated their parents, and yet tolerated them for the "free benefits." Many, many times I've seen this over the years, where kids stay at home long after they have grown up, or move back in later. And it often is not out of love for the family--it is out of selfish interests. It is more free-loading than contributory.

The prediction of a sex drug brings to mind Ecstasy and to other sex-stimulating drugs like Viagra. The prediction of a turn more to alcohol than to drugs is something I saw as we moved out of the psychedelic and heroin era into the cocaine and methamphetamine era. Hard drugs were not let go of completely, but the drug culture itself seemed to soften.

The prediction of arguments with strict parents over fashions I saw personally when my kids insisted on damaging their shoes and jeans in the interest of "fashion." They literally made tears and holes in the clothes we bought them! This did not make for good relations between parents and children!

And the prediction of increased problems with kids due to out of control divorce you can see around you every day. I think today marriages only last 50% of the time! This is not only an increase from '73, but the impact upon children with working parents and daycares has been devastating, with respect to childhood development. It has been worse among Black Americans whose children disproportionately end up in prison.

One of the starkest prophecies of The Vision is the claim that antiChristian persecution will rapidly rise. The acceptance of gays, occultism, and high church religion among nominal Christians is a fact of our existence today. A strict stand against these things would likely be persecuted by liberal churches. Pagan society would be furious with Christian stands against these liberal lifestyles.

I haven't seen a big revulsion within the Catholic Church vs. Charismatics, but I do see Hollywood, TV comedies, and leftist government attack conservative Christianity every day now.

An awakening behind the Iron and Bamboo curtains definitely happened, as predicted in The Vision, particularly after the Berlin Wall came down in '89! Wilkerson talked about a temporary truce between East and West, which we clearly saw after Gorbachev.

It is also predicted that trouble would begin again, which it certainly has under Putin and Xi.

Wilkerson writes this, and keep in mind the recent pandemic began with bats--a kind of flying rat:
"Medical authorities say venereal disease is no longer just an epidemic--it is an uncontrollable pandemic of frightening proportions. Scientists warn of new strains of germs, viruses, and vermin that are resistant to poisons and chemicals and threaten to upset the balance of nature. "Super rats" immune to poisons now infest grain supplies and pass along dreaded diseases to humans. So-called "killer bees" have been bred in South America and threaten to invade this country. The sting is nearly always fatal."

In the last couple of weeks I heard there is a new strain of "killer bee" from Asia in my state of WA. It is worse than the S. American 'killer bee," and much more dangerous. It's a very large hornet, or paper wasp.

Folks, it looks like someone really saw a vision! What do you think?
 
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marks

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Wilkerson writes this, and keep in mind the recent pandemic began with bats--a kind of flying rat:
Bats, a kind of "flying rat"?


Systematics of the Chiroptera :

Bats are thought to be related most closely to the Dermoptera, a small order of mammals (two species) which includes the colugos or "flying lemurs" of the Phillippines. Colugos do not fly, but can glide using a web of skin stretched between their arms and legs, rather like flying squirrels (to which they are not closely related). Perhaps surprisingly, bats are also related to the Primates, the mammal taxon that includes lemurs, monkeys, apes, and humans; and to the Scandentia, the Asian tropical tree shrews. All these mammals are sometimes classified together in one large taxon, the Archonta. Find out more about bats and how they relate to other mammals at the Tree of Life site.

Stretching a little to fit?

Nevermind. I'll leave it alone.
 

Timtofly

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The rats had to carry covid19 to all those shut up inside their buildings, because the government refused to let nature take it course. Pets too probably. Science cannot make up it's mind on pets.

The blessing was work almost came to a screeching halt. Labor is over folks. It is time for Christ to remove the burden of labor, and set up a perfect kingdom and restore Paradise. The Garden of Eden will no longer have an angel blocking the entrance.
 

Randy Kluth

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Bats, a kind of "flying rat"?


Systematics of the Chiroptera :

Bats are thought to be related most closely to the Dermoptera, a small order of mammals (two species) which includes the colugos or "flying lemurs" of the Phillippines. Colugos do not fly, but can glide using a web of skin stretched between their arms and legs, rather like flying squirrels (to which they are not closely related). Perhaps surprisingly, bats are also related to the Primates, the mammal taxon that includes lemurs, monkeys, apes, and humans; and to the Scandentia, the Asian tropical tree shrews. All these mammals are sometimes classified together in one large taxon, the Archonta. Find out more about bats and how they relate to other mammals at the Tree of Life site.

Stretching a little to fit?

Nevermind. I'll leave it alone.

No, I wasn't being any more technical than the bat is like a rodent, even though I understand it is not one. But it is a mammal, and not a bird. That is the point. Wilkerson indicated the rats carry diseases. We just found out how dangerous bats carrying diseases can be too. If you can't make the connection, I feel sorry for you. Is this a class on classifications? I don't think so. ;)
 

Keraz

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David Wilkerson's "The Vision"--a brief critique.
Did this vision pass the smell test? I think so. Although I have wavered about it for many years I couldn't help but apply it to my life and benefit from its words. I think I was just uncomfortable with not knowing for sure, since it is not written in the typical biblical format. It is a modern vision.
But NOT a prophecy. For that DW would have to have been 100% correct.
He simply made a number of predictions, that were good educated guess's. Others have done better and most have done worse.

What DW predicted is interesting, but it is far from Bible prophecy, so to accord it any weight for our future is foolishness. Might as well read tarot cards!
 

Hidden In Him

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But NOT a prophecy. For that DW would have to have been 100% correct.
He simply made a number of predictions, that were good educated guess's. Others have done better and most have done worse.

What DW predicted is interesting, but it is far from Bible prophecy, so to accord it any weight for our future is foolishness. Might as well read tarot cards!


Keraz, as I have stated elsewhere, my only big issue with Wilkerson was simply over statements he made with regard to the timing of the fulfillment of the prophecies God gave him, which is where many prophets commonly make mistakes. The timing of when things will be fulfilled is in God's hands alone and most of the stronger prophecies are often predicting things many decades into the future.

Timing, however, is also your problem. As I recall, you have publicly predicted in the past that the Lord's return is coming in 11 years. Do you still stand by this? If so, you will be condemning yourself by these words if what you have taught regarding the timing of things does not come to pass, and anything you have to say from that point on, by your own profession, should be regarded as not to be accorded any weight, and that people might as well read Tarot cards before listening to you any more.

Do you understand the position you are putting yourself in when you publicly pass judgment like this?

God bless,
Hidden
 

Keraz

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Timing, however, is also your problem. As I recall, you have publicly predicted in the past that the Lord's return is coming in 11 years. Do you still stand by this? If so, you will be condemning yourself by these words if what you have taught regarding the timing of things does not come to pass, and anything you have to say from that point on, by your own profession, should be regarded as not to be accorded any weight, and that people might as well read Tarot cards before listening to you any more.
If you had properly read what I posted about timing, you should have seen that what I did was to simply add the time periods as given in the Bible and relate them to our present calendar. The exact 2000 year age of the Church is from 29.5 AD to 2029.5 AD

Judging by the current world situation, about 10 years until Jesus Returns, is right for all that must happen before that Day.
 

Randy Kluth

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Marginalized again!

:(

Yea, most definitely marginalized. If I tell you a storm is coming, and I mis-spell the word "storm," and all you do is focus on the mis-spelling of the word "storm," and how you can't conceive of how I could make such a mistake, and if I can make a mistake like this, then surely I'm not reliable--then yes, I think you're sort of looking for a reason not to listen, and you won't make the connection.

The connection is simple, brother, and if you want to be "difficult" about it, then go ahead and make the differentiation between different technical names of animal classes. But in the Scriptures, those classifications are not Aristotlean, are they? And so, why are you so concerned about whether a bat is like a rat? ;)

To me, a bat is more like a rat than like a bird. That's my point. Duh!
 

Randy Kluth

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But NOT a prophecy. For that DW would have to have been 100% correct.
He simply made a number of predictions, that were good educated guess's. Others have done better and most have done worse.

What DW predicted is interesting, but it is far from Bible prophecy, so to accord it any weight for our future is foolishness. Might as well read tarot cards!

There hasn't been a single prophet in history, apart from Jesus, who was 100% perfect. What the Scriptures meant was that to test a prophet as being from God he would 1) have to convey the true Spirit of God, and 2) his prophets should prove to be true.

I have no reason, so far, to question whether Wilkerson ever led people away from God or gave prophecies that are not coming to pass. In fact, some key prophecies did come to pass. Other prophecies may yet be future. Which prophecies failed, from your perspective?
 

marks

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Yea, most definitely marginalized. If I tell you a storm is coming, and I mis-spell the word "storm," and all you do is focus on the mis-spelling of the word "storm," and how you can't conceive of how I could make such a mistake, and if I can make a mistake like this, then surely I'm not reliable--then yes, I think you're sort of looking for a reason not to listen, and you won't make the connection.

The connection is simple, brother, and if you want to be "difficult" about it, then go ahead and make the differentiation between different technical names of animal classes. But in the Scriptures, those classifications are not Aristotlean, are they? And so, why are you so concerned about whether a bat is like a rat? ;)

To me, a bat is more like a rat than like a bird. That's my point. Duh!
OK then.

Appearance is everything, eh?

The man says God told him it would be rats, and bats look like rats to you, and the word is only a letter away, so, OK.

Not the first time I've been accused of intellectual dishonesty, and I'm fully certain it won't be the last, so long as I post as I do on these sorts of forums.

But it's interesting to me that this sort of acceptance allows greater and greater deviation from what was said. Is it rats in NYC or bats in China? Is it bars and churches and government shut down . . . OK, 2 out of 3 ain't bad.

Right, and it wasn't in the next few years, rather, a narrative that was presented as a sequential sort of thing that this was all going to be happening, building, until into the end of the age with thermonuclear warfare and everything.

And as the decades roll by, and the nude dancing didn't take over the churches, I'm trying to find reasons to not believe?

Aren't we supposed to look at what the prophet says, and see if that's what happened?
 

Hidden In Him

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If you had properly read what I posted about timing, you should have seen that what I did was to simply add the time periods as given in the Bible and relate them to our present calendar. The exact 2000 year age of the Church is from 29.5 AD to 2029.5 AD

Judging by the current world situation, about 10 years until Jesus Returns, is right for all that must happen before that Day.

I understand, Keraz, and I'm not trying to vilify you. I'm simply concerned that it might hit you too hard if what you believe is going to happen doesn't. Part of what can effect people more severely is if they had declared others to be foolish and that they might as well have been using Tarot cards. If they turn out to be more accurate, you stand doubly condemned, not just for prophesying falsely, but more importantly for ridiculing others who did not make the kind of predictions you did.

@marks and @Enoch111: You both posted likes endorsing a comment from a man who predicts the Lord is coming back a decade or so from now. He is setting a specific year for it. Through your lack of faith in David Wilkerson, you are endorsing someone whose predictions mirror in some ways the predictions made by Harold Camping.

Sure you should be doing that?
 

Keraz

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I understand, Keraz, and I'm not trying to vilify you. I'm simply concerned that it might hit you too hard if what you believe is going to happen doesn't. Part of what can effect people more severely is if they had declared others to be foolish and that they might as well have been using Tarot cards. If they turn out to be more accurate, you stand doubly condemned, not just for prophesying falsely, but more importantly for ridiculing others who did not make the kind of predictions you did.
I reiterate: I simply added the given time periods in the Bible, related them to our Gregorian calendar at the known date of 586 BC, when the Babylonians conquered Judah.
I do not prophesy nor do I make predictions, but you condemn me for posting Bible facts?

I think you complain too much, hard facts and truths that don't suit your beliefs are rejected and the messenger with them.
Here is the Bible timeline:
7000 years from the Creation to the Completion of Mankind:

Genesis 1:27 Adam was created in 3970.5 BC subtracted back from 586 BCE, from:

Gen 5:3 Seth +130, Gen 5:6 Enoch +105, Gen 5:9 Kenan +90, Gen 5:12 Mahalalel +70, Gen 5:15 Jared +65, Gen 5:18 Enoch +162, Gen 5:21 Methuselah +65, Gen 5:25 Lamech +187, Gen 5:28 Noah+182, Gen 7:6 The Flood came when Noah was +600, Gen 11:10 Our year 2314.5 BC
Arpachshad +2 - born to Shem after the flood. Gen 11:12 Selah +35, Gen 11:14 Heber +30, Gen 11:16 Peleg +34, Gen 11:18 Reu +30, Gen 11:20 Serug +32, Gen 11:22 Nahor +30 , Gen 11:24 Terah +29, Gen 11:26 Abram +70, Abram was +52 when God called him and they left Ur. Our year 1970.5 BCE He lived in Haran for 23 years, then went to Canaan at age 75. Genesis 12:4 Total years so far = 2000

Gen 17:1, Abraham was 99 when the Covenant was made with God. +47 Genesis 17:1-8
Galatians 3:17 Paul states that the Law was given +430 after the Covenant. Total years elapsed until the Exodus – 2477, in our year 1493.5 BC.
[Many ancient records say Comet Typhon passed close the earth at that time. It was the cause of many of the disasters in Egypt.]

1 Kings 6:1 The Temple construction starts, in the 4th year of King Solomon +480 since the Torah was given at the Exodus.. 1 Kings 11:42 Solomon 40 minus 4 = +36, 1 Kings 14:21 Rehoboam +17, 1 Kings 15:2 Abijah +3, 2 Chron 16:13 Asa +41, 1 Kings 22:42 Jehoshaphat +25, 2 Kings 8:17 Jehoram +8, 2 Kings 8:26 Ahaziah +1, 2 Kings 11:1-3 Athaliah +6, 2 Kings 12:1 Joash +40, 2 Kings 14:2 Amaziah +29, 2 Kings 15:1-2 Azariah +52, 2 Kings 15:33 Jotham +16, 2 Kings 16:2 Ahaz +16, 2 Kings 18:1-2 Hezekiah +29, 2 Kings 21:1 Manasseh +55, 2 Kings 21:19 Amon +2, 2 Kings 22:1 Josiah +31, 2 Kings 23:31 Jehoahaz +3mths, 2 Kings 23:36 Jehoiakim +11, 2 Kings 24:8 Jehoichin +3mths, 2 Kings 24:18-20 Zedekiah +11, who ruled until the Babylonian captivity in our year of 586 BC.

Total elapsed years to the first exile of Judah = 3386.5

586 BC + 613.5 years + 2 comes to 29.5 AD, the date of Jesus’ baptism. Luke 3:1 Plus 2 to include the total number of elapsed years, as our calendar system counts years from their commencement.

3386.5 + 613.5 = 4000 years from Adam to Jesus.


January 2020 AD - 29.5 AD = 1990.5 years since the commencement of Jesus’ Ministry.

1990.5 + 4000 = 5990.5 years, is where we are now. 5990.5 + 9.5 = 6000 years

2020 AD + 9.5 = 2029.5 AD

Exactly 2000 years for the present Church age, until Jesus Returns.
4000 since Abraham, 6000 since Adam. Next comes the 1000 year reign of Jesus.

7000 years is God’s decreed time for mankind.

Those who have been found worthy will go into Eternity with God. Revelation 22:1-5

Addendum: Because Jesus worked in His mission on earth for 3½ years, the two ‘days’ prophesied in Hosea 6:2 and confirmed by Jesus in Luke 13:32, that He will spend in heaven from Ascension to Return, maybe should have the 3½ years added to it, making a total of 2003.5 years since 29.5 AD = 2033 for His Return and the commencement of the Millennium.
 
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Jay Ross

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I reiterate: I simply added the given time periods in the Bible, related them to our Gregorian calendar at the known date of 586 BC, when the Babylonians conquered Judah.
I do not prophesy nor do I make predictions, but you condemn me for posting Bible facts?

keraz, I have been questioning your understanding of the End times for a year or two now and you claim that your biblical facts are right.

In your chronology, in your post above, you have a 1 years error in your calculations because you did not take into account that the flood was over in the 601 years of Noah's life as recorded in the Book of Genesis.

From Scripture we know that the flood began in the 600th year of Noah's life.

Gen 7:6: - 6 Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters were on the earth.

We also know from scripture that the flood had dried off in the six hundred and first year of Noah's life.

Gen 8:13-14: - 13 And it came to pass in the six hundred and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, that the waters were dried up from the earth; and Noah removed the covering of the ark and looked, and indeed the surface of the ground was dry. 14 And in the second month, on the twenty-seventh day of the month, the earth was dried.​

Now from a chronological perspective, it may appear to be minor, but from an interpretational perspective it undermines your creditability with respect to interpreting the scriptures.

This is also evident in your understanding/interpretation of other prophetical Bible Book.

I have previously pointed out your errors, but you claim ignorance with respect to the translation accuracies that you rely on for your understandings.

There are others who are now questioning your credibility and you respond in your usual fashion.

Good Luck Keraz with your views.
 

Hidden In Him

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I do not prophesy nor do I make predictions, but you condemn me for posting Bible facts?

Keraz, again, I am not condemning you. I think you are an avid student of scripture so I at least encourage you in that. But what follows this sentence is without question a prediction; that the Lord is returning in 2029 A.D. This is based on a number of personal presumptions you make in arriving at that date, hence my reference to Harold Camping.

Look. I don't want to come off as an enemy here. I posted what I did because I am honestly concerned for your welfare when the things you have predicted do not come to pass. And you could at least do yourself a favor in this regard by not condemning others who "might as well be using Tarot cards."

God bless,
Hidden
 

marks

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@marks and @Enoch111: You both posted likes endorsing a comment from a man who predicts the Lord is coming back a decade or so from now. He is setting a specific year for it. Through your lack of faith in David Wilkerson, you are endorsing someone whose predictions mirror in some ways the predictions made by Harold Camping.

Sure you should be doing that?
Hi HIH,

I think you'll find were you to make an examination of my "likes" you'll find I typically assign them according to the post content, and not as a blanket approval of their overall teaching, or some other post they've written. This can be knowable in that I've often "liked" posts written by people whom I have disagreement with on other matters.

Why, I hardly think that if blanket agreement of someone else's views were the criteria for giving likes, that anyone would be giving "likes" at all!

Interesting choice of words . . . "through my lack of faith in David Wilkerson". As if the reason I liked a post was because I lack faith in David Wilkerson. Could it be that I simply "liked" the content of his post? Which post by the way? That you are concerned over?

And speaking of 'trusting in David Wilkerson', are you sure you should be doing that? I don't think that's the point.

Much love!
 
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Hidden In Him

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Interesting choice of words . . . "through my lack of faith in David Wilkerson". As if the reason I liked a post was because I lack faith in David Wilkerson. Could it be that I simply "liked" the content of his post?

LoL. But Marks, the entire content of his post was about DW. "What DW predicted is interesting, but it is far from Bible prophecy, so to accord it any weight for our future is foolishness. Might as well read tarot cards!" Why would you "simply like" the content of this post yet it have nothing to do with David Wilkerson? I'm not following you.

But it's not a big deal, honestly. My main concern is with Keraz, and I drew both of your attention to it because I don't know that he should be encouraged to say such things in this particular context. If he had spoken about something else, maybe, but he is putting his foot ever deeper into his mouth now, and it's not good for him or anyone else.

God bless, and hope you have a good day.
Hidden
 

marks

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LoL. But Marks, the entire content of his post was about DW. "What DW predicted is interesting, but it is far from Bible prophecy, so to accord it any weight for our future is foolishness. Might as well read tarot cards!" Why would you "simply like" the content of this post yet it have nothing to do with David Wilkerson? I'm not following you.

But it's not a big deal, honestly. My main concern is with Keraz, and I drew both of your attention to it because I don't know that he should be encouraged to say such things in this particular context. If he had spoken about something else, maybe, but he is putting his foot ever deeper into his mouth now, and it's not good for him or anyone else.

God bless, and hope you have a good day.
Hidden
It looked like what you were trying to do was impugne @Keraz 's comments about DW by pointing to something you assumed I would disagree with. I think the idea is, how can you agree Here, when you don't agree There? But they are separate matters.

That's what it looked like, but if that's not correct that's good!

Shall I say that I'm not sure that you should be speaking about modern prophets? That I'm concerned over you? Does that have a valid place in this discussion? Does it help things?

Or does it just come accross as condescending?

Much love!
 

marks

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Why would you "simply like" the content of this post yet it have nothing to do with David Wilkerson? I'm not following you.

Keraz wrote:
But NOT a prophecy. For that DW would have to have been 100% correct.
He simply made a number of predictions, that were good educated guess's. Others have done better and most have done worse.

What DW predicted is interesting, but it is far from Bible prophecy, so to accord it any weight for our future is foolishness. Might as well read tarot cards!


I'm not following your question, but as much as I can I'll answer, I gave his post a like because it echoes my thoughts. I'm not sure I'd have picked the Tarot card comparison, might have gone a little softer on that. But just the same I find it to be a collection of things that haven't happened, and those that people point to, not in the way he said. So I don't find it meaningful as a prophecy. And I also find disagreement between his narrative and what I find in Scripture.

Much love!
 

Hidden In Him

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Shall I say that I'm not sure that you should be speaking about modern prophets? That I'm concerned over you? Does that have a valid place in this discussion? Does it help things?

Your concern is fine, but telling me I shouldn't be speaking about modern prophets is based upon what exactly?
I'm not following your question, but as much as I can I'll answer, I gave his post a like because it echoes my thoughts. I'm not sure I'd have picked the Tarot card comparison, might have gone a little softer on that. But just the same I find it to be a collection of things that haven't happened, and those that people point to, not in the way he said. So I don't find it meaningful as a prophecy. And I also find disagreement between his narrative and what I find in Scripture.

LoL. If Keraz had posting something as gracious as this there would have been no comment.