Will The New Heaven And Earth Have The Lake Of Fire Present?

[Truth7t7]

Well, it wouldn’t be annihilation yet. It would be annihilation if and when he was thrown into the lake of fire.
And I don’t think Jesus was telling a literal story there. I believe it was a parable.

Parables are simplistic teachings of literal events that will take place

Lazarus and the Rich Man weren't fictional charachters in representation

 

[Truth7t7]

I had no idea they believed the lake of fire was annihilation for mortals. Interesting.

Who are you talking to and what claim are you addressing, please cite a post when responding, thanks

 

[Truth7t7]

Um…is the new city of Jerusalem on the new earth?

you got me there…where is the verse that talks about the new moons on the new earth?

oh wait, sorry I forgot, you don’t think there’s a thousand year reign on this earth.

Revelation chapter 21 clearly teaches that it is, have you ever read the entire chapter?

Look closely at verse 1-5 and tell me what you think

 

[Truth7t7]

I had no idea they believed the lake of fire was annihilation for mortals. Interesting.

7th Day Adventist Annihilation, the wicked will be destroyed in the lake of fire and non-existant

Are you 7th Day Adventist?

 

[ewq1938]

7th Day Adventist Annihilation, the wicked will be destroyed in the lake of fire and non-existant

Are you 7th Day Adventist?

Why ask? She clearly isn't one because she didn't know they even believed in Annihilation. There are many non-SDA that believe in Annihilation baed on a huge amount of scriptures that show Annihilation.

 

[Truth7t7]

Why ask? She clearly isn't one because she didn't know they even believed in Annihilation. There are many non-SDA that believe in Annihilation baed on a huge amount of scriptures that show Annihilation.

Annihilationism is a false doctrine, found no place in scripture, taught by the cults of Jehovah's Witnesses and 7th day Adventist

The Wicked Will Suffer Conscious Eternal Torment After Death As Seen Below

Revelation 14:9-11KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Who are you talking to and what claim are you addressing, please cite a post when responding, thanks

I was talking to you. It should have been easy to glean since you had just mentioned annihilationism and 7th day adv. And no, I will not speak according to your dictates or rules. It’s a sore spot for me since I was raised in extreme passive aggression and narcissism. My speaking style is more cordial, open and warm and lax on rules or being perfect or proper. You can either bear with my imperfectness or you can ignore my posts but if you choose to talk with me, it’s conversation style, not structured debate style. I hope you can bear with me because I have greatly enjoyed talking with you. Greatly. I do like talking with those I agree with but it’s almost like I learn even more talking with those I disagree with.

 

[Truth7t7]

I was talking to you. It should have been easy to glean since you had just mentioned annihilationism and 7th day adv. And no, I will not speak according to your dictates or rules. It’s a sore spot for me since I was raised in extreme passive aggression and narcissism. My speaking style is more cordial, open and warm and lax on rules or being perfect or proper. You can either bear with my imperfectness or you can ignore my posts but if you choose to talk with me, it’s conversation style, not structured debate style. I hope you can bear with me because I have greatly enjoyed talking with you. Greatly. I do like talking with those I agree with but it’s almost like I learn even more talking with those I disagree with.

I have enjoyed discussion with you also, I fully understand your position, my request was looking at eliminating confusion in response and reading the thread by myself and others

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Parables are simplistic teachings of literal events that will take place

Lazarus and the Rich Man weren't fictional charachters in representation

The point I was trying to get across is that they actually aren’t completely literal. An actual seed of wheat was not planted inside my heart. I am not wheat, I am a human. God will not demand literal money/talents from men because that parable uses money to convey something other than money. God is not concerned about money and how much money a man will have when he dies. But how else would God convey spiritual things to a man without using something literal and temporal that he does understand to say what the kingdom is like?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Revelation chapter 21 clearly teaches that it is, have you ever read the entire chapter?

Look closely at verse 1-5 and tell me what you think

Yes, I get from reading it that new Jerusalem will be on the new earth, no more ocean, sun, moon. The poster didn’t seem to think so though so I was trying to glean why they didn’t. He seemed to think there would still be sun and moon to mark days and the new Jerusalem was separate from new earth. In fact, he mentioned moons, plural, so I wanted to see what verses he read that gave him that idea. But then I remembered he didn’t believe a millennial reign on earth so I grasped that when it says anything about from new moon to new moon, he would have to put that on the new earth rather than on the current earth. But now I’ve got myself confused lol!

 

[Truth7t7]

The point I was trying to get across is that they actually aren’t completely literal. An actual seed of wheat was not planted inside my heart. I am not wheat, I am a human. God will not demand literal money/talents from men because that parable uses money to convey something other than money. God is not concerned about money and how much money a man will have when he dies. But how else would God convey spiritual things to a man without using something literal and temporal that he does understand to say what the kingdom is like?

We disagree, the teaching of the rich man and Lazaraus applies to Gods reality, there is a place of comfort and torment in the spiritual

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes, I get from reading it that new Jerusalem will be on the new earth, no more ocean, sun, moon. The poster didn’t seem to think so though so I was trying to glean why they didn’t. He seemed to think there would still be sun and moon to mark days and the new Jerusalem was separate from new earth. In fact, he mentioned moons, plural, so I wanted to see what verses he read that gave him that idea. But then I remembered he didn’t believe a millennial reign on earth so I grasped that when it says anything about from new moon to new moon, he would have to put that on the new earth rather than on the current earth. But now I’ve got myself confused lol!

No place in scripture does it state no more "Ocean", sea represents multitudes of people, there wont be the multitudes of people in the new heaven and earth, narrow is the way, few find it

Revelation 17:15KJV
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

No place in scripture does it state the "New Heaven, Earth" won't have the Sun, Moon

The "City" New Jerusalem will have no need of light, Gods glory is the light

There will be a New Earth outside the gates of Jerusalem,where waters will flow, with fish, fishermen, houses built, vineyards planted

Those present in the New Earth will go up to New Jerusalem to worship God at his throne, from Sabbath to Sabbath, and New Moon to New Moon

Ezekiel 47:8-12KJV
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

No place in scripture does it state no more "Ocean", sea represents multitudes of people, there wont be the multitudes of people in the new heaven and earth, narrow is the way, few find it

Revelation 17:15KJV
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

No place in scripture does it state the "New Heaven, Earth" won't have the Sun, Moon

The "City" New Jerusalem will have no need of light, Gods glory is the light

There will be a New Earth outside the gates of Jerusalem,where waters will flow, with fish, fishermen, houses built, vineyards planted

Those present in the New Earth will go up to New Jerusalem to worship God at his throne, from Sabbath to Sabbath, and New Moon to New Moon

Ezekiel 47:8-12KJV
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

mmm…I don’t buy that about the ocean/sea and the Sun. I don’t completely do away with the literal that way. In parables, yes, the literal, temporal isn’t the gist. And in prophecy, a temporal kingdom of men does not have feet like a bear literally. But…I think some things are meant literally. For instance, there will also be no more death, just as there will be no more ocean. And I think it’s literal.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

We disagree, the teaching of the rich man and Lazaraus applies to Gods reality, there is a place of comfort and torment in the spiritual

I believe there’s torment. There’s gnashing of teeth in great sorrow. And there’s lesser and more stripes, depending. It will be more tolerable for sodom on that day than for some others.
I just don’t believe men are born with eternal life in them.

 

[Truth7t7]

mmm…I don’t buy that about the ocean/sea and the Sun. I don’t completely do away with the literal that way. In parables, yes, the literal, temporal isn’t the gist. And in prophecy, a temporal kingdom of men does not have feet like a bear literally. But…I think some things are meant literally. For instance, there will also be no more death, just as there will be no more ocean. And I think it’s literal.

We disagree, waters in revelation symbolically represent multitudes of people as shown

We have covered the city new Jerusalem will have no need of the sun God is its light, this dosent apply to the new earth where rivers, fish, fishermen, animals present, houses built, vineyards planted

We have covered how Isaiah 65 represents the new heaven and earth, with your claim of "a child dying at 100 years" being answered as a symbolic represention of eternal to the human mind

We have covered how Isaiah 65:17-20 & Revelation 21:1-5 are parallel teachings of the same place

No need in beating a dead horse, we disagree

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Truth7t7]

I believe there’s torment. There’s gnashing of teeth in great sorrow. And there’s lesser and more stripes, depending. It will be more tolerable for sodom on that day than for some others.
I just don’t believe men are born with eternal life in them.

A direct question?

When the unsaved wicked person dies, where does their soul go please explain?

They cease to exist?

They go into soul sleep, waiting judgement?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

We disagree, waters in revelation symbolically represent multitudes of people as shown

We have covered the city new Jerusalem will have no needifthe sun, not the
new earth

And how Isaiah 65 represents the new heaven and earth, with your claim of "dying" answered

No need in beating a dead horse, we disagree

I think it’s difficult, with the Bible, to say something always represents something. Does a serpent always represent satan? No. The serpent on the pole did not represent him. Does leaven always represent the teaching of men? I can think of a parable where it doesn’t. Is every mention of water in the entire book of Revelation never about water? No. I kind of think you might agree with me on that last but not sure.

 

[Truth7t7]

I think it’s difficult, with the Bible, to say something always represents something. Does a serpent always represent satan? No. The serpent on the pole did not represent him. Does leaven always represent the teaching of men? I can think of a parable where it doesn’t. Is every mention of water in the entire book of Revelation never about water? No. I kind of think you might agree with me on that last but not sure.

You might agree that Isaiah 65:17-20 & Revelation 21:1-5 seen below, are parallel teachings of the same place?

Isaiah 65:17-20KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

A direct question?

When the unsaved wicked person dies, where does their soul go please explain?

They cease to exist?

They go into soul sleep, waiting judgement?

I can give my current thinking on it. I used to think all slept in the OT and then it changed. But Moses died (we read about satan and an angel arguing over his body, very strange! What did satan want with his dead body??) and yet Moses was at the transfiguration, so at least some part of him was very much alive and not sleeping. And the martyred souls under the altar are speaking, aware, capable of communication with God. So we have both an OT example and an NT example of awareness and communication after death.
However, we also have verses like, the dead cannot praise you from the grave, etc. so the verses seem to be saying different things. But they’re all right and correct, so working out from the solid premise they all are correct, I think those without eternal life have no awareness until they are raised again and those that have eternal life are aware but without their new body yet. That’s currently where I am on it.
I sometimes don’t know exactly where I currently am until someone like you questions me and I have to write it all down and convey it exactly what is in my head. So thanks.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You might agree that Isaiah 65:17-20 & Revelation 21:1-5 seen below, are parallel teachings of the same place?

Isaiah 65:17-20KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Ah, here’s one of those odd but numerous places where prophecy jumps forward or backward in time at 65:20. I do not believe that verse is new heavens and earth because death is not yet completely done away with, although it sounds greatly improved.
We have a very good and solid example that prophecy does this jumping forward or back with Jesusstanding up to read from Isaiah and stopping in a certain place that seemed like mid sentence.