The "HE" of Daniel 9:27

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revturmoil

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For me, the 'temple' which is housing abominations, is the visible church
I know that a lot of people like to associate the church with Babylon the Great, the harlot, or the abomination.
It isn't a good thing to do since there's not one verse that implies such a thing. The so called "apostate church" will not accept the man of sin in the last days.
 

teleiosis

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These discrepancies from a Preterist viewpoint which says Jesus "confirmed" a covenant with many for one week have never been resolved by the Preterists.

1. Jesus never conferred a limited-time covenant - ever.
2. He didn't state any covenant with the start of His Ministry.
3. The only covenant He made was at the end of His Ministry at the Last Supper, which is the midpoint as the OP would have it.
4. While Christ's sacrifice is the only atoning offering we need, sacrifice went on in the Temple after the crucifixion and resurrection.

In addition, rather than have everything in the past, which is what Preterism means, there are these problems Preterism cannot address satisfactorily.

5. In Dan 9:26, there are three conditions which happen after the sixty-two 'sevens' and which go to the end.
6. The end is also stated in Dan 9:27 as being at the end of the one 'seven.'
7. One of those conditions is still on-going: war.
8. Another condition happened nearly four decades later - more than a generation.

Then there are these Biblical truths which Preterism has to ignore in order for its eschatology to work.

9. Those conditions establish a "gap" in prophecy; there are many "gaps" in prophecies in the Bible.
10. While there is a gap in the seventy 'sevens,' the one 'seven' is not split, but it has a midpoint.
11. Revelation mentions those halves five times in three chapters.
12. At the end of one half, Rev 13:14-15 describes an abomination. That abomination is the same as Dan 9:27 and Mt 24:15.

These are not the only problems with Preterism, but as an eschatology it is dangerous if the events detailed in the end-times are real and yet to come. In such a case, the Christian might fail to watch, and then events could surprise him...

However, to say that Dan 9:27 was accomplished by Jesus and so the lynchpin of "futurism" is taken away and so all of it falls apart - is to wish upon a house of cards built on sand: the fact is Jesus NEVER "forced" by strength of military might a limited-time covenant with anyone.
 

Rex

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teleiosis said:
These discrepancies from a Preterist viewpoint which says Jesus "confirmed" a covenant with many for one week have never been resolved by the Preterists.
And how many times do you think its necessary to say I disagree, at least this is one contains some educate.
To bad you can't tell the difference between Preterist and Historicist, but thats just part of the game of exaggeration isn't it.
 

teleiosis

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You can call your "It all happened in the past" Historicist, but it doesn't change the fact that saying it all happened in the past is Preteristic.

Now Historical Pre-Millennialism did not say Daniel 9:27 was past. Paul never announced that the abomination happened within seven years of Jesus' first Advent; he never mentioned the one 'seven' in conjunction to his Gospel message. He never said anything like that to the Thessalonians, and what he did cover in his second letter to them agrees with futuristic take on Mt 24:15 which references Daniel 9:27.

You can disagree all you want. What you can't do is answer the criticisms I've leveled against your interpretation of Daniel 9:27.
 

Rex

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teleiosis said:
You can call your "It all happened in the past" Historicist, but it doesn't change the fact that saying it all happened in the past is Preteristic.

Now Historical Pre-Millennialism did not say Daniel 9:27 was past. Paul never announced that the abomination happened within seven years of Jesus' first Advent; he never mentioned the one 'seven' in conjunction to his Gospel message. He never said anything like that to the Thessalonians, and what he did cover in his second letter to them agrees with futuristic take on Mt 24:15 which references Daniel 9:27.

You can disagree all you want. What you can't do is answer the criticisms I've leveled against your interpretation of Daniel 9:27.
look im just going to let you have the last word OK
I never said or indicated any of those Ideas you just posted you dreamed them up all by yourself.


You can disagree all you want. What you can't do is answer the criticisms I've leveled against your interpretation of Daniel 9:27.
Why would I bother, I already said your question is phrased in such a way it can't be answered unless I agree with your interpretation.
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/17103-the-he-of-daniel-927/page-4#entry175736

I answered everyone elses questions about the verse
 

teleiosis

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Tell me, aside from Daniel 9:27 when Jesus used His Mighty Arm to initiate a limited-time, seven-year covenant with many and I'll join you and hold hands and we'll sing hymns all night long under the stars.


The point is that you have to answer the central question which naturally arises when you say that Jesus "confirmed" a limited-time, seven-year covenant. You made the call; now you have to show your cards and prove your claim.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, teleiosis.

Okay, here we go:

First, I am not a true preterist; I'm only a partial preterist. As such, I count myself more of a futurist than most, even those who are pretribulational rapturist, prewrath rapturist or posttribulational rapturist. I am also a firm believer in the plenary verbal inspiration of the Bible and believe in the historical-grammatical interpretation of Scripture. Often called a "literal" point of view, I am perhaps more literal in my acceptance of Scripture than most.

That being said, let's tackle each one of these points you make:
teleiosis said:
These discrepancies from a Preterist viewpoint which says Jesus "confirmed" a covenant with many for one week have never been resolved by the Preterists.

1. Jesus never conferred a limited-time covenant - ever.
2. He didn't state any covenant with the start of His Ministry.
3. The only covenant He made was at the end of His Ministry at the Last Supper, which is the midpoint as the OP would have it.
4. While Christ's sacrifice is the only atoning offering we need, sacrifice went on in the Temple after the crucifixion and resurrection.

In addition, rather than have everything in the past, which is what Preterism means, there are these problems Preterism cannot address satisfactorily.

5. In Dan 9:26, there are three conditions which happen after the sixty-two 'sevens' and which go to the end.
6. The end is also stated in Dan 9:27 as being at the end of the one 'seven.'
7. One of those conditions is still on-going: war.
8. Another condition happened nearly four decades later - more than a generation.

Then there are these Biblical truths which Preterism has to ignore in order for its eschatology to work.

9. Those conditions establish a "gap" in prophecy; there are many "gaps" in prophecies in the Bible.
10. While there is a gap in the seventy 'sevens,' the one 'seven' is not split, but it has a midpoint.
11. Revelation mentions those halves five times in three chapters.
12. At the end of one half, Rev 13:14-15 describes an abomination. That abomination is the same as Dan 9:27 and Mt 24:15.

These are not the only problems with Preterism, but as an eschatology it is dangerous if the events detailed in the end-times are real and yet to come. In such a case, the Christian might fail to watch, and then events could surprise him...

However, to say that Dan 9:27 was accomplished by Jesus and so the lynchpin of "futurism" is taken away and so all of it falls apart - is to wish upon a house of cards built on sand: the fact is Jesus NEVER "forced" by strength of military might a limited-time covenant with anyone.
1. Yeshua` never HAD to "confirm" a "limited-time covenant!" Those are YOUR words, not those of Gavri'el to Dani'el or Dani'el's words! And, those words are YOUR "lynchpin" that destroys your argument before it is even well-formed! You're listening to too many voices at once. Don't worry too much about the preterists; their contention that this covenant is the New Covenant is just as wrong as your opinion that the "he" is the antichrist in verse 27. It wasn't necessary for Him to make a covenant with anyone; the covenant was already in force! It was the DAVIDIC COVENANT that was already in force! That's why He was called "haMashiach," the Messiah, the Christ! He was ANOINTED to be KING! He was born to be the King! He was given the title of "King of the Jews" by the Magi! That was the Good News that He heralded: the Good News about the KINGDOM! God said that He would call David's Seed His Son, and that's PRECISELY what God did when His Son Yeshua` submitted to be baptized of Yochanan. He announced, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased!" That was a fulfillment of this prophecy! What's more is that Yeshua` said that Yochanan was to "suffer it to be so now, for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness."

Matthew 3:13-17
13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
KJV


So, what "righteousness" did Yeshua` have to fulfill? Wasn't He already sinless? He had to SUBMIT to His Father's Will! Thus, He was anointed with the Ruach haQodesh Elohiym - the Holy Spirit of God!

2. Aw, sure He did! He DID state the Davidic Covenant merely by offering the Kingdom at the beginning of His ministry! The people were to repent and believe the Good News about the Kingdom's arrival IN HIM, its KING-TO-BE! Every Jew listening to Him understood the Good News about the Kingdom! It was the hope of every Jew to see the days of the Messiah of prophecy! It's just that to many it was little more than a fairytale. Oh, they knew it would come "someday," but no one really expected it to be right then! It's similar to how many Christians today know that Yeshua` (Jesus) will return "someday," but act like ... well ... it won't really be today. Every one of the Jews even in Yeshua`s day would read the prophecies about His coming at least once a year, every year!

Isaiah 35:1-10
1 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.
2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the Lord, and the excellency of our God.
3 Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees.
4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.
5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.
7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.
8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.
9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:
10 And the ransomed of the Lord shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.
KJV


Isaiah 49:7-26
7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.
10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.
11 And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted.
12 Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim.
13 Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the Lord hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.
14 But Zion said, The Lord hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me.
15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.
16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.
17 Thy children shall make haste; thy destroyers and they that made thee waste shall go forth of thee.
18 Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the Lord, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee, as a bride doeth.
19 For thy waste and thy desolate places, and the land of thy destruction, shall even now be too narrow by reason of the inhabitants, and they that swallowed thee up shall be far away.
20 The children which thou shalt have, after thou hast lost the other, shall say again in thine ears, The place is too strait for me: give place to me that I may dwell.
21 Then shalt thou say in thine heart, Who hath begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive, and removing to and fro? and who hath brought up these? Behold, I was left alone; these, where had they been?
22 Thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.
23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the Lord: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.
24 Shall the prey be taken from the mighty, or the lawful captive delivered?
25 But thus saith the Lord, Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered: for I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy children.
26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
KJV


Isaiah 52:1-10
1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.
2 Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.
3 For thus saith the Lord, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.
4 For thus saith the Lord God, My people went down aforetime into Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause.
5 Now therefore, what have I here, saith the Lord, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the Lord; and my name continually every day is blasphemed.
6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the Lord shall bring again Zion.
9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the Lord hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.
10 The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.
KJV


Isaiah 59:13-61:11
59:13 In transgressing and lying against the Lord, and departing away from our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood.
14 And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.
15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the Lord saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.
16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.
18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.
19 So shall they fear the name of the Lord from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him.
20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord.
21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.
60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee.
2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side.
5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.
6 The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the Lord.
7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.
8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?
9 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the Lord thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
10 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.
11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.
12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.
13 The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious.
14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the Lord, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
15 Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.
16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
17 For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness.
18 Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise.
19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the Lord shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.
20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the Lord shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.
21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.
22 A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time.
61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.

4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the Lord: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.
7 For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them.
8 For I the Lord love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.
9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the Lord hath blessed.
10 I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
11 For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord God will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.
KJV


The Jews would read this in their synagogues at least once a year and discuss it with their rabbis! Imagine being able to read this in your own language directly! And, don't think these people were uneducated and illiterate! Their rabbis taught them to read and also taught them other disciplines, such as mathematics, as well! Each boy at the age of 13 would learn to read the Scriptures as a part of becoming a bar mitsvah, a "son of the Commandment." Sure, some were more learned than others because they were more interested or had a higher intellect or had more time to devote to their studies while others had to spend their time making a living, but all were taught as much as possible.

3. Yes, the only Covenant that He MADE was the New Covenant, but this was in answer to His rejection and it was an extension of the Mosaic Covenant in that God wrote His Law within their hearts; however, even this New Covenant has not reached its full potential, yet.

4. Any sacrifices made after Yeshua`s death and resurrection had no more efficacy. They served no more purpose than a slaughterhouse. We KNOW this! YOU know this! And, who makes it a sacrifice? The one doing the sacrifice or the ONE receiving the sacrifice?

Micah 6:6-8
6 Wherewith shall I come before the Lord, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?
7 Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
KJV


Isaiah 1:9-18
9 Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.
10 Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
KJV


5. through 8. - I don't have a problem with any of these. As I said, I am a futurist, and I see them happening in the future.

9. There's not as many "gaps" as you might think. Remember: I don't have a problem with YESHUA`S declaring of them "desolate" MAKING the gap!
10. Here, you have the problem of showing why there should be a gap between the 69th and 70th Sevens. I've given you my reason why there should be a gap between the first half and the second half of the 70th Seven, but you've still made no effort to tell me why there should be a gap earlier!
11. So? Five times the Revelation mentions the SAME half - the latter half - of the Seven (if indeed there is a link between these various ways of giving a time period and the 70th Seven at all)! Furthermore, to confound your simplicity a bit more, these time periods are NOT THE SAME! They vary in their lengths by two or three or even five weeks, depending on which two you compare!
12. So there's an image, so what? It doesn't say where the image is or that it's an "abomination!" It is certainly not like Dani'el 9:27 and Matthew 24:15 because they are not talking about such an image! They're talking about the DISGRACE of the Temple violated, desecrated, destroyed and plundered!

For me, your last post has been nothing but a straw man, and you've missed the mark by a long shot. Sorry, but you would do better to focus strictly on the full preterists with your tirade. Then, if you still want to attack what I believe, that's fine, but come at me from a MUCH different perspective or you will have missed again.
 

teleiosis

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Retrobyter:

Stating the Kingdom of God is at hand is no more of an "affirmation" of the Davidic Covenant than saying a car dealership having a tent sale results in a contract to buy. You cannot find any New Testament Apostle writing about the Davidic Covenant being "confirmed" by Jesus. It's just not there. You want to say Jesus "confirmed" a covenant with many for one 'seven.' It's not in Scripture. Jesus never "forced" a limited-time, seven-year covenant with anyone. Tell me the terms! With whom did He make this deal? To fulfill all righteousness? The baptism by itself is not a covenant! That's what He and John the Baptist had to do in order for Jesus to later make the New Covenant by His death on the Cross! Again I reject your excuse for your take on things.

There is no covenant between Jesus and John the Baptist. It was a necessary step for Jesus. There is no "confirmation" unless you want to insist on some rendition of the Roman Catholic Confirmation which little girls go through. However, that is not what gabar means. It is, however, how far people will strain at a lousy 400 year-old translation which may have meant "make firm" in Shakespearean times. How people are using it today is totally different, and it carries such a positive connotation that people like you are totally willing to ascribe it Jesus. gabar is not always nice, and can be used for when a man rises up in defiance to God. Again: Jesus never used military might to advance His cause! One time when He said His Name, He bowled over a hundred crack Roman soldiers! He certainly had the means to command Angels to "force" the issue - but He never did. That is the nature of the Servant Messiah: the Lamb. This is wholly different than Jesus' other side: the Lion - being the Messiah King who comes with the second Advent.

The "he" of gabar in Daniel 9:27 refers back to the last person mentioned: the ruler who will come. That is what the rules of Hebrew Grammar written by one of the world's most renowned experts on the subject today in America wrote: Watlke. I have gone through that Seminary-level reference work and I can find no rule which you insist exists. But that is not strange for you; you have a lot of peculiar takes on Hebrew which I find in no other reference work by accredited authors writing at the PhD level. The ruler who will come is further defined by Gabriel to be from the people who destroy the city and the sanctuary: the Romans. This is a perfect match for the end-time Roman Kingdom depicted in Nebuchadnezzar's dream. Furthermore, against all protestations by "veteran" for a fifth Kingdom, the Roman world of the "North" is infused today with Islamic extremists: literally "mixing" in "Arabs" to the iron of Western Culture. As Daniel writes extensively of the nations, and as Daniel has mentioned the "little horn," the "King of the North" and his predecessor in time: Antiochus IV Epiphanes several times, it is not extraordinary that this evil person would figure so prominently in advancing the plot of the seventy 'seven's by initiating the one 'seven' by exertion of his "strength" - to prevail over all that is good, which he does waging war on the Saints and overcoming us. We are, by God's design, handed over.

Gabriel employs a story-telling device as old as story-telling itself: parallel construction. He does this by naming the end in Dan 9:26. So after the sixty-two 'sevens' come three conditions: 1. The Messiah is cut off. 2. The city and the sanctuary (Temple) are destroyed. and 3. War continues to the end and we have war today as an ongoing and constant state of affairs. This same end is present in Daniel 9:27. Thus there is an alignment at the end of times in verses 26 and 27. The difference is that Gabriel then backs up and tells us three very important facts about the last seven prophetic years of 360 days each. (Which you reject, but then you're a Partial Preterist too so you're going to insist upon things which go agianst the grain.) 1. It is started by ruler who will come "forcing" (prevail by strength or military might) a covenant (agreement, treaty, etc) with many for that one 'seven.' The one 'seven' remains whole. It is at the last of the time of man. 2. It has a midpoint. That midpoint is an abomination. Abomination in the Bible means idol worship is involved. And true to form, we see revealed in Rev 13:15-17 a talking image - unique in the Bible in that this one speaks! How much more of an abomination do you want? 3. The "end" is poured out on the desolator - the one who causes the desolation - the person responsible: the anti-Christ. And true to form again, the Bowl Judgments are last in God's Wrath and deprive the Man of Lawlessness his victory over South and East at Armageddon when the Lord and His Host sweep down and destroy his army and capture him and the false prophet alive to be judged in Heaven and thrown into the Lake of Fire while yet alive. There is a gap between the sixty-two 'sevens' and the one 'seven' of nearly 2000 years just as Hosea 6:2 foretold.

The first half of the one 'seven' (a period not of lunar years, nor of solar years, but of prophetic years of 360 days each) sees the rise of the anti-Christ and culminates at midpoint with the abomination - the talking image of the anti-Christ being erected in the (third) Temple in Jerusalem in the "Holy Place." That's what Jesus said. And Jesus revealed to Jonn the talking image - which is an abomination of the highest degree because while the prophets scoffed at idols that could not speak - this one does! Immediately with that midpoint abomination two laws are enacted which make the Great Tribulation so terrible. These are two laws which every Christian is told not to obey. Disobedience to these two laws means death unless you can live off the land totally apart from all civilization. The time between the two halves of the one 'seven' are back to back. They go from one to the other. While the Jews in Judea flee from the flood of troops from the North and are protected for the second half so that some Remnant of righteous Jews survive the one 'seven' to populate the Millennium, the evil one turns his attention to us and that results in the Great Tribulation. Rev 12:7 and Rev 12:14 describe the same time period: namely when the woman Israel is shielded from the anti-Christ's fourth terrible beast. 1260 days = 3 1/2 prophetic years.

Yes, we have much different perspectives. You have your 2D rendition of the Rapture, and I have another idea on how that is done. We have one thing in common though: and that is faith in Christ. Thank God our eschatology does not determine our salvation.

_________________________________________________


Mt 3:15 - "to fulfill" all righteousness. This reflects one of six conditions spelled out in Daniel 9:24 which only Jesus can do.

“To bring in everlasting righteousness” comes from the prim word, bo and means to come in, go in, go, and reflects the invitation Christ has to each of us to bring Him into our lives as the indwelling Holy Spirit. This aspect of fellowship with God was not known at all during the time before the Pentecost described in Acts. As such it reflects one of the mysteries of the Church not revealed otherwise in Old Testament prophecy. Until the Pentecost, man knew God through his physical manifestation. As Enoch walked with God, Abraham met with Him, Jacob wrestled with Him, Moses spoke with Him, Joshua conferred with Him, and the Prophets listened to Him, the one aspect missing was the indwelling Holy Spirit. As Jesus said;

JN 16:7 “But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.”

"To fulfill" in Mt 3;15 however, is in the Aorist tense, active voice and infinitive.

The aorist is said to be "simple occurrence" or "summary occurrence", without regard for the amount of time taken to accomplish the action. This tense is also often referred to as the 'punctiliar' tense. 'Punctiliar' in this sense means 'viewed as a single, collective whole,' a "one-point-in-time" action, although it may actually take place over a period of time. In the indicative mood the aorist tense denotes action that occurred in the past time, often translated like the English simple past tense.

The active voice establishes John and Jesus working to accomplish this.

The infinitive yields the addition "to" which sets the baptism as a condition which must be accomplished in order to perform a greater task. Only when Jesus tells John of this does John relent and so Jesus' Ministry begins. This act does not fulfill righteousness - it just allows it to be acomplished. Jesus' one purpose in being born was to die. It is only with His death and resurrection that we have any hope. Mt 3:15 does not fulfill righteousness - it just makes it possible to be fulfilled.





_______________________________




The "Davidic Covenant" comes with 2nd Samuel 7. In this chapter, God promises to David to establish "his" kingdom after David rests with his ancestors.

This promise carries no contractual or covenant requirement on David's part like circumcision or obedience. It is a promise. It is also prophetic. 2Sa 7:14 is especially tough to translate, and seemingly in most versions contradicts the theological insistence on Jesus' sinlessness as the perfect Lamb without blemish who died for our sins. Indeed, further word study on this verse.

In 2nd Samuel 7:14, reading it in the English, it states He, Jesus, will do wrong. For a test of theology, this verse would seem to contradict the prophetic nature in applying it to the Son of God, as Jesus has been held not to have sinned. So the natural reaction of the reader is to reject this passage in the Old Testament as relating prophetically to Jesus.

  • 2SA 7: 14b When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men. —NIV
  • 2SA 7: 14b If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: —KJV

The determination whether this clause pertains to Jesus hinges on Scripture’s translation. Looking at the original Hebrew the entire phrase, “When he does wrong…” or alternately, “If he commit iniquity,” -no matter how the English translation is rendered- comes from just two words in the Hebrew, ‘asher ‘awon.

‘asher: who, which. “To be sure the preponderant use of ‘asher is as a normal relative, usually with an expressed antecedent…For example, one use of ‘asher is to express result: “ ‘So that’ if a man could number the dust of the earth” (Gen 13:16). Another is to express purpose: “Keep his statues…‘that’ it may go well with you” (or is this result? Deut 4:40)”—TWOT Vol. I, pg. 82.

So the first thing which the reader should understand is that like so many instances in the Hebrew language, a single word does double or even triple duty, having multiple meanings. It is clear the translators (as opposed to theologians) have latched onto the personal aspect of ‘asher because of the prominent use of “son.” However, there remains a perfectly good and alternate translation which renders an entirely different meaning to the passage in question as will be shown.

‘awon: iniquity, guilt, punishment. “We note in the first place that the noun is a collective…This notion of totality is also seen in the association of individual misdemeanor with that of the group: “The goat will carry on itself all their perversion/iniquities (plural)” (Lev 16:22); “…and the LORD struck him the perversion/iniquity (singular) of all of us” (Isa 53:6).”—TWOT Vol. II, pg. 650.

The theological application of ‘awon in the Servant Messiah passage of Isaiah 53:6 should not escape the reader’s attention. Jesus said the Scripture speaks of Him and so in that vein how could this passage describe Jesus? While no doubt exists in Isaiah 53, the contention here is, based on how these two significant words are legitimately translated, that 2nd Samuel 7 also speaks in a far-term reference to Jesus.

Another important aspect to this word study and going back to the original Hebrew is that we find the verbs in our English translations; does or commits, are not in the original Hebrew. As a lesson in sentence structure (which is rather academic) those words are only inferred by using the word ‘asher as a noun in the nominative case meaning: who. Rather if ‘asher is used as a noun in the sense of which, it functions to introduce a relative clause (a valid definition of the noun which in both English and Hebrew). This then shifts the ‘asher from the nominative sense (where the son just mentioned is the antecedent and is so referenced,) and ‘asher is not the subject of the iniquity. The meaning of ‘asher then can be described of as a result as in Deuteronomy 4:40 where on the basis of a condition another situation naturally results.

This alternate meaning of ‘asher to which can describe a result and it can be read as “which as a result of…” This then changes how ‘awon works in the sentence. Now it can take the objective of the prepositional phrase, being the result. This avoids having to infer when and does or commits. The secondary meaning of ‘asher, which is not only allowed but also makes sense, removes the need for word additions in translation. In this use of ‘asher, it can carry its normal meaning as ‘which’ and that meaning can express an idea of a something following as a result.

Rather than to say the object of 2 Samuel 7:14, Jesus, personally did wrong, or committed iniquity, a legitimate rendering of the Hebrew would also to say that: “which as the result of’ iniquity I will punish him...” (Christian theology would add the possessive “our” to the iniquity, but the condition remains despite its absence.) Reading this Scripture in an alternate way allows this verse to align with Christian theology that Christ did not sin but became sin for us.

_________________________________


Likewise, besides not comporting to the proper quid pro quo of covenant relations whereby each party has some act to perform, the Davidic promise for a Kingdom then has us searching for the boundaries of this Kingdom and nothing could ever be so nebulous in all of Scripture. To define the Kingdom of God, which Jesus proclaims then has us bewildered to as to when it starts, and how much it encompasses. Doing a word search yields multiple answers which are seemingly contradictory. Therefore, I can not say that Jesus "confirmed" what was promised simply by starting His Ministry because, once again, Jesus does not perform any act of strength or might in accomplishing this which would conform to the Hebrew sense of gabar. While the Christian might say Jesus prevailed over death by His Resurrection, again, this is not a limited-time covenant, but one that is perpetual for the Church Age.

To insist that Jesus is the actor of Dan 9:27 simply falls flat on its face. It is not substantiated by Scripture even if one wants to dredge up the Davidic Covenant and link it to Jesus' pronouncement that the Kingdom of God is at hand - which as Mk 1:15 states is "near," but hardly the Millennium rule which the Messiah King ushers in.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, teleiosis.


teleiosis said:
Retrobyter:

Stating the Kingdom of God is at hand is no more of an "affirmation" of the Davidic Covenant than saying a car dealership having a tent sale results in a contract to buy. You cannot find any New Testament Apostle writing about the Davidic Covenant being "confirmed" by Jesus. It's just not there. You want to say Jesus "confirmed" a covenant with many for one 'seven.' It's not in Scripture. Jesus never "forced" a limited-time, seven-year covenant with anyone. Tell me the terms! With whom did He make this deal? To fulfill all righteousness? The baptism by itself is not a covenant! That's what He and John the Baptist had to do in order for Jesus to later make the New Covenant by His death on the Cross! Again I reject your excuse for your take on things.

There is no covenant between Jesus and John the Baptist. It was a necessary step for Jesus. There is no "confirmation" unless you want to insist on some rendition of the Roman Catholic Confirmation which little girls go through. However, that is not what gabar means. It is, however, how far people will strain at a lousy 400 year-old translation which may have meant "make firm" in Shakespearean times. How people are using it today is totally different, and it carries such a positive connotation that people like you are totally willing to ascribe it Jesus. gabar is not always nice, and can be used for when a man rises up in defiance to God. Again: Jesus never used military might to advance His cause! One time when He said His Name, He bowled over a hundred crack Roman soldiers! He certainly had the means to command Angels to "force" the issue - but He never did. That is the nature of the Servant Messiah: the Lamb. This is wholly different than Jesus' other side: the Lion - being the Messiah King who comes with the second Advent.

The "he" of gabar in Daniel 9:27 refers back to the last person mentioned: the ruler who will come. That is what the rules of Hebrew Grammar written by one of the world's most renowned experts on the subject today in America wrote: Watlke. I have gone through that Seminary-level reference work and I can find no rule which you insist exists. But that is not strange for you; you have a lot of peculiar takes on Hebrew which I find in no other reference work by accredited authors writing at the PhD level. The ruler who will come is further defined by Gabriel to be from the people who destroy the city and the sanctuary: the Romans. This is a perfect match for the end-time Roman Kingdom depicted in Nebuchadnezzar's dream. Furthermore, against all protestations by "veteran" for a fifth Kingdom, the Roman world of the "North" is infused today with Islamic extremists: literally "mixing" in "Arabs" to the iron of Western Culture. As Daniel writes extensively of the nations, and as Daniel has mentioned the "little horn," the "King of the North" and his predecessor in time: Antiochus IV Epiphanes several times, it is not extraordinary that this evil person would figure so prominently in advancing the plot of the seventy 'seven's by initiating the one 'seven' by exertion of his "strength" - to prevail over all that is good, which he does waging war on the Saints and overcoming us. We are, by God's design, handed over.

Gabriel employs a story-telling device as old as story-telling itself: parallel construction. He does this by naming the end in Dan 9:26. So after the sixty-two 'sevens' come three conditions: 1. The Messiah is cut off. 2. The city and the sanctuary (Temple) are destroyed. and 3. War continues to the end and we have war today as an ongoing and constant state of affairs. This same end is present in Daniel 9:27. Thus there is an alignment at the end of times in verses 26 and 27. The difference is that Gabriel then backs up and tells us three very important facts about the last seven prophetic years of 360 days each. (Which you reject, but then you're a Partial Preterist too so you're going to insist upon things which go agianst the grain.) 1. It is started by ruler who will come "forcing" (prevail by strength or military might) a covenant (agreement, treaty, etc) with many for that one 'seven.' The one 'seven' remains whole. It is at the last of the time of man. 2. It has a midpoint. That midpoint is an abomination. Abomination in the Bible means idol worship is involved. And true to form, we see revealed in Rev 13:15-17 a talking image - unique in the Bible in that this one speaks! How much more of an abomination do you want? 3. The "end" is poured out on the desolator - the one who causes the desolation - the person responsible: the anti-Christ. And true to form again, the Bowl Judgments are last in God's Wrath and deprive the Man of Lawlessness his victory over South and East at Armageddon when the Lord and His Host sweep down and destroy his army and capture him and the false prophet alive to be judged in Heaven and thrown into the Lake of Fire while yet alive. There is a gap between the sixty-two 'sevens' and the one 'seven' of nearly 2000 years just as Hosea 6:2 foretold.

The first half of the one 'seven' (a period not of lunar years, nor of solar years, but of prophetic years of 360 days each) sees the rise of the anti-Christ and culminates at midpoint with the abomination - the talking image of the anti-Christ being erected in the (third) Temple in Jerusalem in the "Holy Place." That's what Jesus said. And Jesus revealed to Jonn the talking image - which is an abomination of the highest degree because while the prophets scoffed at idols that could not speak - this one does! Immediately with that midpoint abomination two laws are enacted which make the Great Tribulation so terrible. These are two laws which every Christian is told not to obey. Disobedience to these two laws means death unless you can live off the land totally apart from all civilization. The time between the two halves of the one 'seven' are back to back. They go from one to the other. While the Jews in Judea flee from the flood of troops from the North and are protected for the second half so that some Remnant of righteous Jews survive the one 'seven' to populate the Millennium, the evil one turns his attention to us and that results in the Great Tribulation. Rev 12:7 and Rev 12:14 describe the same time period: namely when the woman Israel is shielded from the anti-Christ's fourth terrible beast. 1260 days = 3 1/2 prophetic years.

Yes, we have much different perspectives. You have your 2D rendition of the Rapture, and I have another idea on how that is done. We have one thing in common though: and that is faith in Christ. Thank God our eschatology does not determine our salvation.

_________________________________________________


Mt 3:15 - "to fulfill" all righteousness. This reflects one of six conditions spelled out in Daniel 9:24 which only Jesus can do.

“To bring in everlasting righteousness” comes from the prim word, bo and means to come in, go in, go, and reflects the invitation Christ has to each of us to bring Him into our lives as the indwelling Holy Spirit. This aspect of fellowship with God was not known at all during the time before the Pentecost described in Acts. As such it reflects one of the mysteries of the Church not revealed otherwise in Old Testament prophecy. Until the Pentecost, man knew God through his physical manifestation. As Enoch walked with God, Abraham met with Him, Jacob wrestled with Him, Moses spoke with Him, Joshua conferred with Him, and the Prophets listened to Him, the one aspect missing was the indwelling Holy Spirit. As Jesus said;

JN 16:7 “But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.”

"To fulfill" in Mt 3;15 however, is in the Aorist tense, active voice and infinitive.

The aorist is said to be "simple occurrence" or "summary occurrence", without regard for the amount of time taken to accomplish the action. This tense is also often referred to as the 'punctiliar' tense. 'Punctiliar' in this sense means 'viewed as a single, collective whole,' a "one-point-in-time" action, although it may actually take place over a period of time. In the indicative mood the aorist tense denotes action that occurred in the past time, often translated like the English simple past tense.

The active voice establishes John and Jesus working to accomplish this.

The infinitive yields the addition "to" which sets the baptism as a condition which must be accomplished in order to perform a greater task. Only when Jesus tells John of this does John relent and so Jesus' Ministry begins. This act does not fulfill righteousness - it just allows it to be acomplished. Jesus' one purpose in being born was to die. It is only with His death and resurrection that we have any hope. Mt 3:15 does not fulfill righteousness - it just makes it possible to be fulfilled.




_______________________________



The "Davidic Covenant" comes with 2nd Samuel 7. In this chapter, God promises to David to establish "his" kingdom after David rests with his ancestors.

This promise carries no contractual or covenant requirement on David's part like circumcision or obedience. It is a promise. It is also prophetic. 2Sa 7:14 is especially tough to translate, and seemingly in most versions contradicts the theological insistence on Jesus' sinlessness as the perfect Lamb without blemish who died for our sins. Indeed, further word study on this verse.

In 2nd Samuel 7:14, reading it in the English, it states He, Jesus, will do wrong. For a test of theology, this verse would seem to contradict the prophetic nature in applying it to the Son of God, as Jesus has been held not to have sinned. So the natural reaction of the reader is to reject this passage in the Old Testament as relating prophetically to Jesus.

  • 2SA 7: 14b When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men. —NIV
  • 2SA 7: 14b If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: —KJV

The determination whether this clause pertains to Jesus hinges on Scripture’s translation. Looking at the original Hebrew the entire phrase, “When he does wrong…” or alternately, “If he commit iniquity,” -no matter how the English translation is rendered- comes from just two words in the Hebrew, ‘asher ‘awon.

‘asher: who, which. “To be sure the preponderant use of ‘asher is as a normal relative, usually with an expressed antecedent…For example, one use of ‘asher is to express result: “ ‘So that’ if a man could number the dust of the earth” (Gen 13:16). Another is to express purpose: “Keep his statues…‘that’ it may go well with you” (or is this result? Deut 4:40)”—TWOT Vol. I, pg. 82.

So the first thing which the reader should understand is that like so many instances in the Hebrew language, a single word does double or even triple duty, having multiple meanings. It is clear the translators (as opposed to theologians) have latched onto the personal aspect of ‘asher because of the prominent use of “son.” However, there remains a perfectly good and alternate translation which renders an entirely different meaning to the passage in question as will be shown.

‘awon: iniquity, guilt, punishment. “We note in the first place that the noun is a collective…This notion of totality is also seen in the association of individual misdemeanor with that of the group: “The goat will carry on itself all their perversion/iniquities (plural)” (Lev 16:22); “…and the LORD struck him the perversion/iniquity (singular) of all of us” (Isa 53:6).”—TWOT Vol. II, pg. 650.

The theological application of ‘awon in the Servant Messiah passage of Isaiah 53:6 should not escape the reader’s attention. Jesus said the Scripture speaks of Him and so in that vein how could this passage describe Jesus? While no doubt exists in Isaiah 53, the contention here is, based on how these two significant words are legitimately translated, that 2nd Samuel 7 also speaks in a far-term reference to Jesus.

Another important aspect to this word study and going back to the original Hebrew is that we find the verbs in our English translations; does or commits, are not in the original Hebrew. As a lesson in sentence structure (which is rather academic) those words are only inferred by using the word ‘asher as a noun in the nominative case meaning: who. Rather if ‘asher is used as a noun in the sense of which, it functions to introduce a relative clause (a valid definition of the noun which in both English and Hebrew). This then shifts the ‘asher from the nominative sense (where the son just mentioned is the antecedent and is so referenced,) and ‘asher is not the subject of the iniquity. The meaning of ‘asher then can be described of as a result as in Deuteronomy 4:40 where on the basis of a condition another situation naturally results.

This alternate meaning of ‘asher to which can describe a result and it can be read as “which as a result of…” This then changes how ‘awon works in the sentence. Now it can take the objective of the prepositional phrase, being the result. This avoids having to infer when and does or commits. The secondary meaning of ‘asher, which is not only allowed but also makes sense, removes the need for word additions in translation. In this use of ‘asher, it can carry its normal meaning as ‘which’ and that meaning can express an idea of a something following as a result.

Rather than to say the object of 2 Samuel 7:14, Jesus, personally did wrong, or committed iniquity, a legitimate rendering of the Hebrew would also to say that: “which as the result of’ iniquity I will punish him...” (Christian theology would add the possessive “our” to the iniquity, but the condition remains despite its absence.) Reading this Scripture in an alternate way allows this verse to align with Christian theology that Christ did not sin but became sin for us.

_________________________________


Likewise, besides not comporting to the proper quid pro quo of covenant relations whereby each party has some act to perform, the Davidic promise for a Kingdom then has us searching for the boundaries of this Kingdom and nothing could ever be so nebulous in all of Scripture. To define the Kingdom of God, which Jesus proclaims then has us bewildered to as to when it starts, and how much it encompasses. Doing a word search yields multiple answers which are seemingly contradictory. Therefore, I can not say that Jesus "confirmed" what was promised simply by starting His Ministry because, once again, Jesus does not perform any act of strength or might in accomplishing this which would conform to the Hebrew sense of gabar. While the Christian might say Jesus prevailed over death by His Resurrection, again, this is not a limited-time covenant, but one that is perpetual for the Church Age.

To insist that Jesus is the actor of Dan 9:27 simply falls flat on its face. It is not substantiated by Scripture even if one wants to dredge up the Davidic Covenant and link it to Jesus' pronouncement that the Kingdom of God is at hand - which as Mk 1:15 states is "near," but hardly the Millennium rule which the Messiah King ushers in.
Tell me, do you often have to say, "The hurrieder I go, the behinder I get"? You remind me of Abbot and Costello: Abbot was explaining how that there were all these "fellas" on the baseball team, but there was only ONE "Feller" (Bob Feller) on the team. So, Costello repeated back the statement, "So you mean that there's all these fellers on the team but there's only one 'Feller?'" Abbot said, "Now you grasp it." Costello said, "I grasp it, but it keeps SLIPPING OUT OF MY HANDS!"

I'm afraid that you've been the same way about this word "gavar." You "grasp" it, but it keeps slipping out of your hands, too! You keep going back to the same error over and over and over and over and over again! It's not about Yeshua` "forcing" any sort of Covenant on anyone! The WORD is not about anyone "forcing" any sort of covenant on anyone! That is NOT what the word means!!! AND, the "he" CANNOT refer to the "prince that shall come" because that is the OBJECT OF A PREPOSITION; it's not a subjective noun!!! The definition of "insanity" is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results! Care to guess what I would call your endless lapses back into old arguments that we've already covered?

"A covenant between Jesus and John the Baptist"!!! Are you meshuggah?!

I'll have to deal with your "verse studies," later. I can't stomach it all right now.
 

teleiosis

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Aug 25, 2010
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You accuse me of error, but I am staying true to the most renowned word study of the theological world.

In Daniel 9:27 confirm comes from the Hebrew word gabar. gabar means prevail, be mighty, have strength, be great. While gabar is translated as confirm (which is a variation of make firm) the Hebrew word does not denote the same kind of action as the positive connotation of “confirm” conveys in English.

"In Arabic, the basic meaning of the root is "to rise, raise, restore," with the idea of being strong, or prevailing over coming only in the derived stems. That the Hebrew may share a similar range of meaning is seen in the Hithpael where the idea is not so much to make oneself prevail over God, as it is to raise oneself up in arrogance and stand in his face (Job 15:25, 36:9; Isa 42:13). The Hebrew root is commonly associated with warfare and has to do with the strength and vitality of the successful warrior." - Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament p. 148; Harris, Archer and Waltke; Moody Press; 1980.


The plain fact is that neither you nor your Preterist-leaning brothers posting here can produce one bit of evidence that Jesus ever made a limited-time, seven-year covenant with anyone concerning anything. And I prefer "Who's on first?"


Furthermore, there is NO rule in Hebrew which states that a pronoun stands for the last person mentioned unless he is the object of a preposition. Like the limited-time, seven-year covenant you say Jesus forces with many, it's not there.


And lastly, all the books I have spell it gabar. You're the only one that uses your special spelling transliterations.
 

Spirit Covenant

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Nov 5, 2012
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Rex said:
Believe what you like its not my job to open peoples eyes its my job to present the opportunity
It is your Job instead to try and close seeing eyes? Do you know what the scriptures say about those who put dark for light and evil for good?

Those who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever?
 

Saint

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Apr 7, 2012
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I have encountered the following link in my study of Daniel chapter 9 regarding the the 70 weeks given by Gabriel to Daniel; I find this study quite interesting and I would like to post it on this forum hoping that others would give it an analytical study it and give their opinions. Please set your preconceived opinions aside and give this an honest appraisal, it could be very important to our understanding.

http://www.wake-up.org/Daniel/DanChap6.htm

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

Roy if you are still out there I would very much enjoy your inputs!
 

Retrobyter

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2011
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Shalom, Bob.

Saint said:
I have encountered the following link in my study of Daniel chapter 9 regarding the the 70 weeks given by Gabriel to Daniel; I find this study quite interesting and I would like to post it on this forum hoping that others would give it an analytical study it and give their opinions. Please set your preconceived opinions aside and give this an honest appraisal, it could be very important to our understanding.

http://www.wake-up.org/Daniel/DanChap6.htm

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob


Roy if you are still out there I would very much enjoy your inputs!
Yes, I'm here. I'll do what I can as soon as I can. Thanks for the link; I'll check it out.
 

Rex

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Saint said:
I have encountered the following link in my study of Daniel chapter 9 regarding the the 70 weeks given by Gabriel to Daniel; I find this study quite interesting and I would like to post it on this forum hoping that others would give it an analytical study it and give their opinions. Please set your preconceived opinions aside and give this an honest appraisal, it could be very important to our understanding.

http://www.wake-up.org/Daniel/DanChap6.htm

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob


Roy if you are still out there I would very much enjoy your inputs!
I read threw but not every word. I agree with the author I particularly agree with his bilateral notes on the covenant, Abraham's unconditional covenant and the conditional bilateral covenant with the nation. Many misunderstand IMO this very important point Abraham's covenant was speaking of the spiritual promise to those who found and remained in God. The conditional covenant "bilateral" made threw Moses set these conditions, many today consider these CONDITIONAL promises to Israel "the people as a whole" nation as unfulfilled and so is injected the displacement of the last week, why?

Israel is special, that threw there heritage they will receive special privileges, the truth is these privileges are for those who are in Christ, the spiritual Israel not the flesh Israel. Because they feel that God has not fulfilled his obligation to the nation, the 70th week is displaced to the end to fit this theology, of futurism.

Also because of the belief that the conditions have not been met in Dan 9:24 Christ dieing on the cross. I believe they have been and answered the outstanding points in this thread that another poster pointed to as being incomplete.

I recently posted about baptism and the two Israels, two baptisms one of water one of spirit. I used both Abraham and Moses to outline my points, leading out to the realization that in the OT as well as the NT there are two Israels one of water and one of spirit, the same as there are two baptisms. http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/17260-proof-being-born-again-is-different-than-being-%E2%80%9Cbaptized-with-the-holy-spirit%E2%80%9D/#entry177976

My word it should be clear that Gods promise to Abraham did not mean that all the descendents of Abraham would be blessed or receive salvation, The LORD God himself left the rebellious bodies of Abraham's descendents scattered from the Exodus to the very cross. To now say in the NT that the Jews have a special relationship with God even though they reject Jesus is to IMO a near blasphemous statement. The promise to Abraham was to the seed singular "Jesus" thats where the promise lay "in spirit" not to the nation "the flesh" but threw them the flesh Christ with come. God preserved Israel threw Babylon not for their name sake but for His, that being Christ. This promise was fulfilled, it was presented to the Jews before and after the cross, It was their inheritance and the majority rejected it. At the end of the appointed time the unconditional promise to Abraham being completed to the Jews first then went as promised to the gentile nations. Acts chapter 8-10.

The point I've been trying to make is the special favor Israel had with the Lord was in the deliverance of the Christ. They were the chosen descendents of Abraham to deliver salvation to first themselves then to the rest of the world, threw a virgin named Mary. God makes every man walk the same line whether he be a Jew of Gentile. If you don't or can't see that truth threw the OT, then you simply confuse the promise to Abraham "life in the spirit" as being the fleshly nation of Israel. Threw Abraham and Moses they received the baptism of water, the preparation, just as John the baptist made the final preparation to receive the promise. We can clearly see in the NT, just as we see threw-out the OT many don't make the cut and receive the promise. There is no favors played by God, I can hear John right now calling to you all about false teachers and prophets teaching you Gods not done with the Nation "flesh" of Israel.
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

God is not a respecter of men nor does he favor one over another unjustly
Look at the opening statement made by Peter just before the spirit fell on the gentiles.

34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. 36 The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— 37 that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they[e] killed by hanging on a tree. 40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.” The Holy Spirit Falls on the Gentiles
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
This is the end of the time appointed unto the Jews 70 weeks for you and your people. The promise of God moves now to bring in the nations. Salvation is in no way closed unto the Israel nation, they receive salvation just as anyone does. But the exclusive time given to them alone, to come and be seated at the Lords promise is about to close. Now the gentiles will be seated. And threw the age both Jews and gentiles continue to be seated. The land and Jerusalem, the Land is always the Lords and again for His names sake He will take it back just as He will the whole earth, but it will not be available to unbelieving Jews, Israelites in the end. It never was or will be available to unbelievers regardless of blood lines.
 

teleiosis

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Is the end appointed "unto the Jews?"

Who did the Man in Linen say were Daniel's "people?"

Dan 12:1 - "your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book"
 

Saint

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I read threw but not every word. I agree with the author I particularly agree with his bilateral notes on the covenant, Abraham's unconditional covenant and the conditional bilateral covenant with the nation. Many misunderstand IMO this very important point Abraham's covenant was speaking of the spiritual promise to those who found and remained in God. The conditional covenant "bilateral" made threw Moses set these conditions, many today consider these CONDITIONAL promises to Israel "the people as a whole" nation as unfulfilled and so is injected the displacement of the last week, why?
Hi Rex; I agree with you regarding the covenants. The Western church simply does not understand the concept of a blood covenant and when they see the term covenant they simply see a contract between two people. The Eastern church in general, as well as Muslims understand the significances of a blood covenant.

I think it of very important that all have this knowledge and the following link is a great place to start;

http://www.rockofoffence.com/myst6.html

Actually the author of the first link I provided has an excellent study on the covenant relationship and can be seen at the following link.... http://www.wake-up.com/Alpha/Chapter8.htm

Adrian Rogers was really the one who started me on my study of the Blood Covenant and has two excellent sermons on the subject. The whole word of God is based on the Blood Covenant concept.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob
 

veteran

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This debate is ignorance. It's easy to know who the "he" of Dan.9:27 is IF... one simply continues to read the following Daniel 11 chapter...


Dan 11:21-23
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
(KJV)

Dan 11:30-32
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
(KJV)
 

Saint

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The He of Daniel 9:27 is Yeshua who came to strengthen and reaffirm the Unilateral Blood Covenant that was made between Yahweh and Abraham; the same way that David and Jonathan reaffirmed at least twice the Blood Covenant between the two of them.

Confirm the covenant is correct for the phrase can only be translated: "to make a covenant firm" or "he shall cause the covenant to prevail." This cannot be said of the little horn if he was to break a covenant with the Jews in the middle of the week. Hence, it must be the prince of the covenant who confirms the covenant The implications are far reaching: It suggests the usual Messianic interpretation: that the death of the Anointed One confirms the covenant.

If you could just read the verse literally it is very clear. It was Yeshua who was cut off in the middle of the last week and it was Yeshua whom directed Rome to destroy the city of those who reject Him. The wings of abomination by the way are the uncircumcised armies of Rome who entered the Holy City and Temple which is considered an abomination by God and Israel.

"And for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate." This, the KJV rendering of 9:26, suggests that because of the spreading around of abominations, desolations will come, or, in order that abominations may be spread everywhere, he makes desolate. These two ideas are linked together in Daniel grammatically. We have "the transgression that makes desolate" (8:13) and "the abomination that makes desolate" (11:31).

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob