A Christian who deny Jesus is God in Flesh

Taken said:

No.



No. They are illegitimate, like biden.

Click to expand...

That makes them a fraud...

Christophany said:

No I'm not as Paul identifies Christ as the Lord(YHWH) of Joel 2:32.

next....................................

hope this helps !!!

Click to expand...

Yes Paul does, but unless that is communicated when the person wishes to accept Christ as Savior, you are saying God will not save them because they do not fully understand this part of theology. Hogwash, men are that punctiliar, God is not.

Paul, under the inspiration of teh Holy SPirit wrote teh formula for salvation.

1. Confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord (kurios) not theos.
2. Believe in your heart god raised Him from the dead
3. YOu will be saved!
4. As you grow you will learn Jesus is God with His Father. But that is not biblically essential to salvation! Sorry but it is not in any formula for salvation in the Bible.
5. If Paul wanted to mean one must believe Jesus is God He would have used theos instead of Kurios! Paul was not under the pharasaic compulsion to not write the name of God as in the OT.

justbyfaith said:

I believe that the thief was around during Jesus' ministry; and may have even been present when Jesus claimed to be God in John 8:58.

It was very likely common knowledge, in that day, at the very least, that Messiah (the son that was given) would have the name of "The everlasting Father" (Isaiah 9:6)....at the very least, there is no proof to the contrary.

Click to expand...

Well that is supposition. I wouldn't hang my hat on a guess to make a doctrine.

justbyfaith said:

If anyone denies that Jesus is God, they will die in their sins if they continue to their dying breath in that unbelief (John 8:24).

Believing in the Deity of Christ, therefore, is essential to salvation.

Click to expand...

And once again, you have pulled that verse out of its context to redefine what Jesus actually said! Jesus did not say unless you believe I am God, but He did say, "unless you believe I am He". and keeping it in the context of what Jesus was speaking- it meant the Messiah of Israel.

You do not give God any credit to teach a new believer in the truth.

Someone who trusts Jesus death and resurrection and acknowledges HIm as Lord instead of Rama, Muhamed, Krishna, etc. will be saved. All I have said is that they will not instantly unlearn all the fase doctrine they learned! God will teach them. If after whatever time God sets, they still reject the diety of Christ- then yes they maybe never got saved in the first place. but I nor you have the authority to draw that line in any persons life including our own!

justbyfaith said:

You have to believe in the Jesus of the Bible (see 2 Corinthians 11:3-4); who is God.

Anyone who takes the beginning of John's gospel at face value and believes the testimony of John will understand that He is God. It happens at the very beginning of any sound Christian walk.

If someone reads John 1:1-3, John 1:14 and denies the Deity of Christ, that will probably characterize their belief system from then on in. And apart from some miracle, they are never going to have and believe in the true and living Jesus of the Bible.

Click to expand...

Do you have perfect knowledge of the Jesus of the bible? If not how do you know you are even saved if you don't know the Jesus of the bible fully? It appears you are adding to teh simply formula of salvation and adding burdens on some people that they may not be ready for.

You falsely declare Lord in the NT = Yahweh when it does not in so many cases concerning jesus! Is Jesus God? Yes!
YOur last statement in this quote is a very arrogant judgmental declaration by you! who put you in charge of deciding what will characterize another persons believe system from there on in!

Many trinitarians have a hard time expalining the Trinity and you demand someone who wishes to come to God the Father accept teh full deity of Jesus before they come? Hogwash! Even Jesus was far more gracious than you! Sorry but the formula for salvation is belief in the death resurrection of the Lord Jesus for their sin--period! All teh rest of sound doctrine arises from that! Even accepting hos Jesus can be equally god with His father and yet still be one God!

Pearl said:

Can't get away from that; unless you have a JW bible which says 'The word was A god.'

Click to expand...

And it is to those like a JW that if their heart desires true salvation, god will have mercy. they will learn if they got saved, but I just don't see that they are required to instantly get rid of a false doctrine like this to be saved. They can be saved and still believe in annihilationism, saved and reject teh personality and deity of teh holy spirit, still get saved and believe they must attain good works to stay saved! All these things must be unlearned and they can only be unlearned witht the Holy Spirit illuminating ones mind through a decent transaltion of the Word of God!

WaterSong said:

Precisely.
In human terms lets take the name/person, Emmanuel Smith. ES is a father, a brother, and a dentist. Is ES three people? Or is he Emmanuel Smith present as a dad, a brother and a dentist?
I think what confuses some is they believe the term, God, is a distinction removed from that of, holy spirit. But the scriptures tell us, God is holy, God is spirit. Therefore when we think in terms of God the real identity of God is holy spirit.

Click to expand...

First thanks for the reply, second I do not agree with that assessment of Emmanuel Smith. example, what if ES was a Truck Driver, and a obstetrician, and ... a husband.... well ES can drive a truck and at the same time be a Husband. but could ES delievey a baby in his home town as an obstetrician, and at the same time, driving a truck in a neighboring state? no, so that example want work here concering the Godhead. understand, G243 allos, and what it connotes. Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort
a NUMERICAL DIFFERENCE is what God is as the ECHAD of himself in ordinal number..... and not cardinal in number... understand, that's how ES can be in another state, driving a truck, while at the exact time delivering a baby in another state........ see it now.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

Ronald Nolette said:

Yes Paul does, but unless that is communicated when the person wishes to accept Christ as Savior, you are saying God will not save them because they do not fully understand this part of theology. Hogwash, men are that punctiliar, God is not.

Paul, under the inspiration of teh Holy SPirit wrote teh formula for salvation.

1. Confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord (kurios) not theos.
2. Believe in your heart god raised Him from the dead
3. YOu will be saved!
4. As you grow you will learn Jesus is God with His Father. But that is not biblically essential to salvation! Sorry but it is not in any formula for salvation in the Bible.
5. If Paul wanted to mean one must believe Jesus is God He would have used theos instead of Kurios! Paul was not under the pharasaic compulsion to not write the name of God as in the OT.

Click to expand...

Lord is God in the context that’s the point Paul makes in Romans 10.

and hogwash is right with your eisegesis of the text. I provided exegesis.


And to use your own "logic and human reasoning" a person can deny Jesus is Savior since no verse says one must confess Jesus is Savior to have eternal life.

One cannot pick and choose what they believe about Jesus to be saved.

He is God
He is Lord
He is Savior
He is Creator
He is Alpha and Omega
He is the First and the Last
He is the Almighty God
He is the the I Am.
He is YHWH

and so on and so forth.


hope this helps !!!

Ronald Nolette said:

Yes Paul does, but unless that is communicated when the person wishes to accept Christ as Savior, you are saying God will not save them because they do not fully understand this part of theology. Hogwash, men are that punctiliar, God is not.

Paul, under the inspiration of teh Holy SPirit wrote teh formula for salvation.

1. Confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord (kurios) not theos.
2. Believe in your heart god raised Him from the dead
3. YOu will be saved!
4. As you grow you will learn Jesus is God with His Father. But that is not biblically essential to salvation! Sorry but it is not in any formula for salvation in the Bible.
5. If Paul wanted to mean one must believe Jesus is God He would have used theos instead of Kurios! Paul was not under the pharasaic compulsion to not write the name of God as in the OT.

Click to expand...

What did Jesus mean when He said I Am in John 8:58 ?

Was He making any special claim and if so who was He claiming to be ?

Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I Am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

hope this helps !!!

sho said:

Is not a Christian

Click to expand...

It says..."denies he has come in the flesh", not "come as God in the flesh".

This is made up.

John dealt with folks that were saying Jesus was a spirit being, not a regular man.

Ronald Nolette said:

1. Confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord (kurios) not theos.

Click to expand...

There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5) and He is God (Mark 12:29 (kjv)); even the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21). I believe that the Greek word there is kurios.

Ronald Nolette said:

And once again, you have pulled that verse out of its context to redefine what Jesus actually said! Jesus did not say unless you believe I am God, but He did say, "unless you believe I am He".

Click to expand...

The He is in italics so effectively Jesus was saying, "Unless you believe that I am <the great I AM>, you will die in your sins."

Even if you include the "He" as being valid (though it is not in the original text), it can be determined that John 8:27 defines who that "He" is...that they understood not that Jesus was speaking to them of the Father.

Ronald Nolette said:

If after whatever time God sets, they still reject the diety of Christ- then yes they maybe never got saved in the first place. but I nor you have the authority to draw that line in any persons life including our own!

Click to expand...

Then we are in agreement.

I suppose that if anyone dies in unbelief concerning the Diety of Christ, it will be in their sins. Until they die, they have the opportunity to change their pov.

Christophany said:

Lord is God in the context that’s the point Paul makes in Romans 10.

and hogwash is right with your eisegesis of the text. I provided exegesis.


And to use your own "logic and human reasoning" a person can deny Jesus is Savior since no verse says one must confess Jesus is Savior to have eternal life.

One cannot pick and choose what they believe about Jesus to be saved.

He is God
He is Lord
He is Savior
He is Creator
He is Alpha and Omega
He is the First and the Last
He is the Almighty God
He is the the I Am.
He is YHWH

and so on and so forth.


hope this helps !!!

Click to expand...

If you say a person has to believe your list inorder to be saved- then you are not preaching the same gospel as Paul!

and no Lord is Kurios:
κύριος kýrios, koo'-ree-os; from κῦρος kŷros (supremacy); supreme in authority, i.e. (as noun) controller; by implication, Master (as a respectful title):—God, Lord, master, Sir.

And in the context of how Kyrios was used- Cesar was Kyrios a divine son of the gods. Jesus is Kyrios, the divine son of God. that is all that is needed to enter the kingdom.
All the rest you listed- not even all Christians are there yet- so you would have them unsaved still.

Romans 10:9
King James Version

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

1 Corinthians 15
King James Version

15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


So I guess when you have the privilege of leading someone to the Lord you first before praying with them have a theology class so you can make sure they believe all you wrote above.

Christophany said:

What did Jesus mean when He said I Am in John 8:58 ?

Was He making any special claim and if so who was He claiming to be ?

Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I Am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

hope this helps !!!

Click to expand...

John 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Sorry but superficially the bible itself shows Jesus a lesser being. But you would want the unsaved to understand these nuanced teachings that even many Christians still do not grasp.

I am glad the Father is more merciful than men are!

Ronald Nolette said:

If you say a person has to believe your list inorder to be saved- then you are not preaching the same gospel as Paul!

and no Lord is Kurios:
κύριος kýrios, koo'-ree-os; from κῦρος kŷros (supremacy); supreme in authority, i.e. (as noun) controller; by implication, Master (as a respectful title):—God, Lord, master, Sir.

And in the context of how Kyrios was used- Cesar was Kyrios a divine son of the gods. Jesus is Kyrios, the divine son of God. that is all that is needed to enter the kingdom.
All the rest you listed- not even all Christians are there yet- so you would have them unsaved still.

Romans 10:9
King James Version

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

1 Corinthians 15
King James Version

15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


So I guess when you have the privilege of leading someone to the Lord you first before praying with them have a theology class so you can make sure they believe all you wrote above.

Click to expand...

Its not a "list" its Who Jesus is period.

You divide Him into parts you like and don't like.

You cannot separate Him as Lord, God, Savior. That is who He is all the time 24/7.

Do you believe the Trinity ?

justbyfaith said:

There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5) and He is God (Mark 12:29 (kjv)); even the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21). I believe that the Greek word there is kurios.

Click to expand...

Yes in Jesus prayer He calls the Father Kyrios, but Jesus is not His Father.

Ephesians 4:4-6
King James Version

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


So are you saying they have to understand what this verse is saying before they get saved? YOu will have a lonely church then!

justbyfaith said:

The He is in italics so effectively Jesus was saying, "Unless you believe that I am <the great I AM>, you will die in your sins."

Even if you include the "He" as being valid (though it is not in the original text), it can be determined that John 8:27 defines who that "He" is...that they understood not that Jesus was speaking to them of the Father.

Click to expand...

So now they have to understand how Jesus can be Yahweh with His Father as well!

I will not impose in gentile evangelism, things specific to Jews of Jesus day and today!

justbyfaith said:

Then we are in agreement.

I suppose that if anyone dies in unbelief concerning the Diety of Christ, it will be in their sins. Until they die, they have the opportunity to change their pov.

Click to expand...

YOu know I am going to leave that to God. He is the one who knows the heart of an individual. We are speaking what ifs' here that we can never know for certain. God discerns far better the heart of an individual than we ever could. I will not quibble over how divine one thinks Jesus is.

Paul declared teh gospel He preached in order for people to be saved in 1 Cor. 15 and it was belief in the death and physical resurrection of Jesus for a persons sins.



Do I believe that one can die thinking Jesus was just human and be saved? I think no.

Christophany said:

Its not a "list" its Who Jesus is period.

You divide Him into parts you like and don't like.

You cannot separate Him as Lord, God, Savior. That is who He is all the time 24/7.

Do you believe the Trinity ?

Click to expand...

No I don't divide HIm.
No He can't be separated from who He is. but people may not understand all He is until we go hoime and see Him as He is, 24/7!

I am a staunch hard core Trinitarian. That is who God is! But people at the moment of salvation who have spent their life learning different MAY NOT have that knowledge at first. but if saved they will grow into that knowledge! YOu want them to have theor theology cleaned up first before granting the meternal life.

God will grant one eternal life and then clean up their theology! He is gracious and understanding.