Colossians 2:14-16 - The Law That Was Against Us

CadyandZoe · Jan 29, 2021

Backlit said:
Isn't that what non Sabbath observers base their stand on... The silence of Commandment in the NT for Sabbath?

Psalm 51:17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

Isaiah 57:15
For thus says the high and exalted One Who lives forever, whose name is Holy, “I dwell on a high and holy place, And also with the contrite and lowly of spirit In order to revive the spirit of the lowly And to revive the heart of the contrite.

King David began to understand the difference between ritual and spirituality. God doesn't care about your ritual. He cares about your inwardness. Christ Jesus our Lord also taught us this when he told the people that lusting after a woman is committing adultery with her in the heart. He also taught us this idea in his parable of the Pharisee and the Publican, where the Publican went home justified because he humbled himself and confessed his sins. Paul the apostle taught this same idea when he told us that we are being justified apart from the law. Faith, which is inwardness in action, is the true marker of those whom God is saving.

God gave man ritual, not for his sake but for the sake of man, who seems to crave ritual. Man loves to invent religion and through religion he attempts to control his environment including the masses. God hates religion.

Isaiah 1:11-15

mailmandan · Jan 29, 2021

Randy Kluth said:
No, your hatred is palpable, and you can't cover it up with cold reason. You need a spiritual renewal, brother, if you even know what that is? Most of your remarks are quips, designed to extend friction--not resolve differences or explain differences.

I know the difference between someone who is congenial and someone who is purely hostile. You are the latter. If you don't want to be viewed that way, or even disagree with me, please prove it by using a better tone. Snarkiness betrays a bad spirit.

So it's not just me.

Well said.

Brakelite · Jan 29, 2021

amadeus said:
Maybe there is a special for today!

I'm sure there was... Several of us have taken advantage of it and have bought property on the same block.

Randy Kluth said:
Jesus was saying he's Lord of the Sabbath to show that he was not himself under the Law.

Jesus was never under the law because He never transgressed against it. And in fulfilling the OT prophecy, He upheld the law and made it honorable.
Not even Jesus can transgress the 4th Commandment and at the same time honor it.

Randy Kluth said:
Paul in the NT took great pains to explain that nobody is under a Law that was cancelled due to the failure of Israel, God's covenant people. The Sabbath Day is thus *no longer holy.*

The Sabbath Day observance is related to the Law, and is not the same thing as God's sacred rest after His work of Creation. Sabbath Day observance was created in the fashion of God's 7th Day rest after Creation, as a reminder to Israel of Man's purpose to be like God in Creation. But Israel was not like God, and had to rest to show their dependence on God's mercy.

You are making this up as you go along. Shooting bird shot blindly in the hope of hitting something.

mjrhealth · Jan 29, 2021

CadyandZoe said:
Psalm 51:17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

Isaiah 57:15
For thus says the high and exalted One Who lives forever, whose name is Holy, “I dwell on a high and holy place, And also with the contrite and lowly of spirit In order to revive the spirit of the lowly And to revive the heart of the contrite.

King David began to understand the difference between ritual and spirituality. God doesn't care about your ritual. He cares about your inwardness. Christ Jesus our Lord also taught us this when he told the people that lusting after a woman is committing adultery with her in the heart. He also taught us this idea in his parable of the Pharisee and the Publican, where the Publican went home justified because he humbled himself and confessed his sins. Paul the apostle taught this same idea when he told us that we are being justified apart from the law. Faith, which is inwardness in action, is the true marker of those whom God is saving.

God gave man ritual, not for his sake but for the sake of man, who seems to crave ritual. Man loves to invent religion and through religion he attempts to control his environment including the masses. God hates religion.

Isaiah 1:11-15

Finally someone who can see religion for what it is.

amadeus · Jan 29, 2021

@Backlit

Amadeus said:
Maybe there is a special for today!

Backlit said:
I'm sure there was... Several of us have taken advantage of it and have bought property on the same block.

"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it." Matt 13:44-46

amadeus · Jan 29, 2021

CadyandZoe said:
Psalm 51:17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

Isaiah 57:15
For thus says the high and exalted One Who lives forever, whose name is Holy, “I dwell on a high and holy place, And also with the contrite and lowly of spirit In order to revive the spirit of the lowly And to revive the heart of the contrite.

King David began to understand the difference between ritual and spirituality. God doesn't care about your ritual. He cares about your inwardness. Christ Jesus our Lord also taught us this when he told the people that lusting after a woman is committing adultery with her in the heart. He also taught us this idea in his parable of the Pharisee and the Publican, where the Publican went home justified because he humbled himself and confessed his sins. Paul the apostle taught this same idea when he told us that we are being justified apart from the law. Faith, which is inwardness in action, is the true marker of those whom God is saving.

God gave man ritual, not for his sake but for the sake of man, who seems to crave ritual. Man loves to invent religion and through religion he attempts to control his environment including the masses. God hates religion.

Isaiah 1:11-15

Expecting that in that ritual presented a few will see something real beyond the olive oil and the sacrificed animals... or today in too many of the ritual filled church services, something that indeed is real. God has always known what He was doing. How many men have been able to see it?

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matt 7:13-14

"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Isaiah 55:11

Are there a few even on this forum entering in at the "strait gate"?

Randy Kluth · Jan 29, 2021

mailmandan said:
So it's not just me. Well said.

You know you're right with God when you really hate berating someone. The Spirit of God wants to save--not condemn. But spiritual interference always needs to be dealt with, whether it's coming from ourselves or from someone else. The idea is to confront the problem so as to resolve it--not just perpetuate "issues."

Randy Kluth · Jan 29, 2021

Backlit said:
I'm sure there was... Several of us have taken advantage of it and have bought property on the same block.

Jesus was never under the law because He never transgressed against it. And in fulfilling the OT prophecy, He upheld the law and made it honorable.
Not even Jesus can transgress the 4th Commandment and at the same time honor it.

Jesus cannot transgress a commandment that doesn't apply to him--he was never a sinner, and "honoring the Sabbath Day" was given for sinners. It represents God's need for rest from seeing the works of sinners for a time.

At the same time, Jesus had Himself, being God, given the Jewish People this commandment to obey. Living among the Jews Jesus obviously lived in a way that encouraged all to follow Sabbath Law, as long as that law remained in effect.

And even after it ceased being in effect, he would've liked Paul and other believing Jews to show respect in the Jewish culture by observing the Sabbath. It was a way of becoming like them to win them. It removed an issue of contention so that the Gospel message can be heard apart from contensions over "days."

Backlit said:
You are making this up as you go along. Shooting bird shot blindly in the hope of hitting something.

This is coming from a person completely unable to argue the point. I stand by what I said, and it remains uncontested.

Randy Kluth · Jan 29, 2021

CadyandZoe said:
Psalm 51:17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

Isaiah 57:15
For thus says the high and exalted One Who lives forever, whose name is Holy, “I dwell on a high and holy place, And also with the contrite and lowly of spirit In order to revive the spirit of the lowly And to revive the heart of the contrite.

King David began to understand the difference between ritual and spirituality. God doesn't care about your ritual. He cares about your inwardness. Christ Jesus our Lord also taught us this when he told the people that lusting after a woman is committing adultery with her in the heart. He also taught us this idea in his parable of the Pharisee and the Publican, where the Publican went home justified because he humbled himself and confessed his sins. Paul the apostle taught this same idea when he told us that we are being justified apart from the law. Faith, which is inwardness in action, is the true marker of those whom God is saving.

God gave man ritual, not for his sake but for the sake of man, who seems to crave ritual. Man loves to invent religion and through religion he attempts to control his environment including the masses. God hates religion.

Isaiah 1:11-15

I agree with your main point, but not with the corollary, that God hates religion (unless by this you mean God hates "dead" religion). Why would He give the Law unless it was born out of love? He would not concede to Man what Man wanted, namely formal religion, just because Man wants it and likes it!

Rather, God gave the formal rituals of the Law out of love because it was a true way for Israel to meet with God on a temporary basis until final restitution for sin could be made. Israel was displaying a testimony before the world of the need for final redemption form sin, a way to eternal life past death.

These rituals testified both to the inability of Man to have eternal life without redemption and to the willingness of God to maintain fellowship with Man in an agreement to go in this direction until the process is completed. This could legitimately be testified to by showing, through rituals, the need for sacrifices for sin.

No, I believe the rituals, though unnecessary in the long run, served a useful purpose both to God and to Man. But as you say, ultimately the goal was not purely external, but inward, which is then expressed outwardly whether in ritual or in good deeds.

Obeying God involves expressing good works, whether by performing rituals in obedience to God or in loving others in obedience to God. Rituals can become lifeless and perfunctory, or they can be meaningful and a witness to God's need to covenant together with people in a proper format.

GerhardEbersoehn · Jan 29, 2021

Backlit said:
I'm sure there was... Several of us have taken advantage of it and have bought property on the same block.

Jesus was never under the law because He never transgressed against it. And in fulfilling the OT prophecy, He upheld the law and made it honorable.
Not even Jesus can transgress the 4th Commandment and at the same time honor it.

You are making this up as you go along. Shooting bird shot blindly in the hope of hitting something.

Dear friend, become free from SDAism.

CadyandZoe · Jan 29, 2021

Randy Kluth said:
I agree with your main point, but not with the corollary, that God hates religion (unless by this you mean God hates "dead" religion). Why would He give the Law unless it was born out of love? He would not concede to Man what Man wanted, namely formal religion, just because Man wants it and likes it!

Rather, God gave the formal rituals of the Law out of love because it was a true way for Israel to meet with God on a temporary basis until final restitution for sin could be made. Israel was displaying a testimony before the world of the need for final redemption form sin, a way to eternal life past death.

These rituals testified both to the inability of Man to have eternal life without redemption and to the willingness of God to maintain fellowship with Man in an agreement to go in this direction until the process is completed. This could legitimately be testified to by showing, through rituals, the need for sacrifices for sin.

No, I believe the rituals, though unnecessary in the long run, served a useful purpose both to God and to Man. But as you say, ultimately the goal was not purely external, but inward, which is then expressed outwardly whether in ritual or in good deeds.

Obeying God involves expressing good works, whether by performing rituals in obedience to God or in loving others in obedience to God. Rituals can become lifeless and perfunctory, or they can be meaningful and a witness to God's need to covenant together with people in a proper format.

Just making sense of Isaiah 1:11-15
Not only that, but the Jewish praxis is very similar to other ancient cultures. The difference, I presume, is that God redeemed it to serve his holy purpose. This is similar to what he did with the city. Bear in mind, the concept of a city was Cain's idea and has always been a place where bad things happen. But in the end, God will redeem the city and make it something wonderful. See "The Meaning of the City" by Jacques Ellul for instance.

GerhardEbersoehn · Jan 29, 2021

Randy Kluth said:
"honoring the Sabbath Day" was given for sinners.

Yes, But the fearful put it this way, <<the Sabbath Day" was given>> making the Sabbath the Subject of the Predicate. I cannot recall one such instance in the whole Written Word of God. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
The Lord of the Sabbath gave the Sabbath! So is the Sabbath <honoured> -- by giving the right Party credit, The LAWGIVER. Otherwise the Sabbath is completely senseless and useless - because it is God-less!

mjrhealth · Jan 29, 2021

GerhardEbersoehn said:
Yes, But the fearful put it this way, <<the Sabbath Day" was given>> making the Sabbath the Subject of the Predicate. I cannot recall one such instance in the whole Written Word of God. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
The Lord of the Sabbath gave the Sabbath! So is the Sabbath <honoured> -- by giving the right Party credit, The LAWGIVER. Otherwise the Sabbath is completely senseless and useless - because it is God-less!

You would have to give up you husband which is Christ to marry another which is the law, if not for Israel being divorced from the law to be married to Christ, you would be an adulterer, but you just chose the wrong husband, teh Curse of teh law you chose for yourself.

GerhardEbersoehn · Jan 29, 2021

mjrhealth said:
You would have to give up you husband which is Christ to marry another which is the law, if not for Israel being divorced from the law to be married to Christ, you would be an adulterer, but you just chose the wrong husband, teh Curse of teh law you chose for yourself.

Colossians 2:18
Let no man not holding to the Head [but] puffed up by his fleshly mind, who conceitedly meddles in what he knows nothing about (the mystery which is Christ 1:28), with his pretentious humility and angelic worship beguile you (with enticing words 2:4) of your reward.

GerhardEbersoehn · Jan 29, 2021

Randy Kluth said:
If you don't believe in NT teaching, why are you on this Christian forum?

Why do you think I am on this Christian forum? To address the most silly questions unimaginable?

GerhardEbersoehn · Jan 29, 2021

Tong2020 said:
What did Jesus meant when He said “ and not man for the Sabbath”?

It means the Sabbath existed in the Providences of God because man whom He would create would sin, "for God thus concerning the Seventh Day spake in time past by the prophets and in these last days by the Son whom He appointed Heir, and began to make His Promises true with the children of Abraham and "the Seventh Day finished all his works "unto us" "co-heirs with Christ" - because "JESUS GAVE THEM REST".

mjrhealth · Jan 29, 2021

GerhardEbersoehn said:
Colossians 2:18
Let no man not holding to the Head [but] puffed up by his fleshly mind, who conceitedly meddles in what he knows nothing about (the mystery which is Christ 1:28), with his pretentious humility and angelic worship beguile you (with enticing words 2:4) of your reward.

Yes you should take note of that very quote.

Something to do with men subverting the souls of men as you do.

GerhardEbersoehn · Jan 29, 2021

Tong2020 said:
Mark 2:27 And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. 28 Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.”

Jesus' own words explain, yea, prove, when He says "man" He refers to Himself as "The Son of Man". Now read Isaiah 56, "BLESSED THE MAN THE SON OF MAN THAT CLAIMS THE SABBATH HIS (Jesus "the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath").

What cheek the Sundayers have. . .

mjrhealth · Jan 29, 2021

GerhardEbersoehn said:
Jesus' own words explain, yea, prove, when He says "man" He refers to Himself as "The Son of Man". Now read Isaiah 56, "BLESSED THE MAN THE SON OF MAN THAT CLAIMS THE SABBATH HIS (Jesus "the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath").

What cheek the Sundayers have. . .

Luk 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
Luk 5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
Luk 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

I guess you affinity with the law ,is all the evidence you do not have the new wine, you have proved it by your own words over and over, you prefer teh old. You need to try that new wine Christ has to offer.

BarneyFife · Jan 29, 2021

GerhardEbersoehn said:
No, not GerhardEbersoehn[/USER]--not I. Sorry but I don't care to be burdened with another's problems. All I know is God gave me faith in His Word.

Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ?? (Galatians 6:2)

Colossians 2:14-16 - The Law That Was Against Us

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