The first century Gifts of the Spirit VS Scripture today;

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Dave L

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[updated] Many fail to realize what the gifts of the Spirit did and how scripture does the same only better. Probably the most puzzling comparison would be Agabus the prophet telling the believers to prepare for famine and to provide for the church at Jerusalem. How can scripture compete with this?

Every choice we make is a reaction to something external or within. God moved people externally at times through the prophets. But he performs the same movement in us through other means as well. So the gifts can expire, but the results remain the same. “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:13)

First off, Agabus had a burden as many of us do. A burden that won’t let us rest until we address it. And then we speak in faith telling others what concerns us. This might have been prophecy nudging people externally back in the day. But in our day it is the Spirit’s leading within, through which we prompt others to take action.

How do we know which fork in the road to take based on scripture alone? Prayer tells us which way to move according to the faith we have. The Spirit bears witness giving us faith for traveling in one direction while withholding it in other directions. We can foretell the future based on the faith God gives us before we see our needs in person. How many times have we said “the Lord will provide”. All based on the faith he gives us. And then the provision arrives.

What would love do? That is a clear directive from scripture about any choice in direction before us. In fact, we learn Jesus is Lord when love controls our course of action. God is love.

How do we judge spirits using the word only? If people do not align doctrinally with scripture, we know the spirit of error or doctrines of demons. The spirit of Antichrist is rampant today as people deny Christ and all that he is. Replacing him with an idol based on their lack of learning or on their denominational affiliation.

Tongues helped bring God’s new covenant words to the early disciples in fragments. That when written down and collected, no doubt became part of the scriptures we have today. No longer do we see through a glass darkly, through the lens of the Old Covenant only, but now face to face in the full revelation of Jesus Christ in the New Covenant scriptures.

And so we have a self-contained guidance through our bibles the early believers did not have. They needed to judge prophecy for accuracy. They had to compile the fragments. They had to depend on one another for guidance with no scripture memory base as we have today, the full revelation of the new covenant. And Peter said their prophecy and tongues were subject to the private interpretation of the interpreter.

He says; “And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. “We have also a more sure word of prophecy …. Knowing this first that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.” (2 Peter 1:18–21)
 
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Helen

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No longer do we see through a glass darkly, through the lens of the Old Covenant only, but now face to face in the full revelation of Jesus Christ.

Not so.

The darken glass was not the OT.

Paul wrote this in the NT It became the NT

If anyone saw Jesus regularly 'face to face' it was Paul...if anyone had a 'full revelation of Jesus Christ' it was PAUL!! That was his teaching ...

Yet Paul wrote :-
1 Cor. 13
"But WHEN that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away....
For NOW we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: NOW I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. "

.
 
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Dave L

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Not so.

The darken glass was not the OT.

Paul wrote this in the NT It became the NT

If anyone saw Jesus regularly 'face to face' it was Paul...if anyone had a 'full revelation of Jesus Christ' it was PAUL!! That was his teaching ...

Yet Paul wrote :-
1 Cor. 13
"But WHEN that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away....
For NOW we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: NOW I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. "

.
Thanks for sharing. Please take a little time with this;

If tongues were to cease at the end of the world, why would Paul need to mention it? If they were to cease anyway? With everything else?

Paul said; “so that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ; who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye be unreproveable in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Corinthians 1:7)

Notice they would not seek the gifts until the end. But only until the Revelation of Christ who would also confirm them to the end.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;” (Revelation 1:1)

So he was saying the gifts would expire with the Revelation of Jesus Christ that we now know was written by John in either 60 or 90 AD.

All of the gifts expired, and history confirms this, as John published Revelation.


602. ἀποκάλυψις apŏkalupsis, ap-ok-al´-oop-sis; from 601; disclosure:—appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.

Strong, J. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Vol. 1, p. 14).

used for Revelation of Jesus Christ before the end by Paul and John


Notice Paul also uses a different word for the second coming of Christ;


“Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely. And may your spirit, soul, and body be kept sound and blameless for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23)

Coming = παρουσία, Parousia = 15.86 παρέρχομαιb; παραγίνομαιa; πάρειμιb; παρουσίαb, ας f; παρίσταμαιe (and 2nd aorist active): to come to be present at a particular place—‘to come, to arrive, to come to be present.’

So we need to differentiate between the terms. In the first instance, since the revelation will also confirm them to the end, it means a revelation before the end. He uses Parousia to denote a revelation (coming) at the end.
 
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Helen

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All of the gifts expired, and history confirms this, as John published Revelation.

Okay Dave, answer me this...( I can see why we have so many denominations)

How come we can all read the same bible yet come away with very different concepts of what it is saying?

We all filter what we read through our already coloured belief system...if not , we would all see the same thing in the bible verses.

What you see and believe is totally different to what I see and believe.
Yet we have the same Father.

Umm but is that so?

By what you have written in so many threads, you state that we are deceived.
We are manipulated by devils.
We have false doctrine.
Deluded...

So actually you probably believe that most of us here aren't even 'saved'..and do not have the same Father at all!!!

We fall into the ..".......I never knew you..."
 
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Dave L

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Okay Dave, answer me this...( I can see why we have so many denominations)

How come we can all read the same bible yet come away with very different concepts of what it is saying?

We all filter what we read through our already coloured belief system...if not , we would all see the same thing in the bible verses.

What you see and believe is totally different to what I see and believe.
Yet we have the same Father.

Umm but is that so?

By what you have written in so many threads, you state that we are deceived.
We are manipulated by devils.
We have false doctrine.
Deluded...

So actually you probably believe that most of us here aren't even 'saved'..and do not have the same Father at all!!!

We fall into the ..".......I never knew you..."
I believe most on this board are saved and find great joy thinking about us meeting in heaven. But I think many are misguided by lack of self initiated bible study and through a trust and dependence on denominations and teachers who are good at tickling ears. I've been through what many are still bogged down in and only hope the truth sets them free as it did me.
 

Helen

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I believe most on this board are saved and find great joy thinking about us meeting in heaven. But I think many are misguided by lack of self initiated bible study and through a trust and dependence on denominations and teachers who are good at tickling ears. I've been through what many are still bogged down in and only hope the truth sets them free as it did me.

Okay..I have watched all the back and forth between you and others re Calvin etc etc

So, I do not believe as 'they' say Calvin believed ( so often the name used for a Denom today is not much as it was first preached ...as with John Wesley etc )

I do believe that I was chosen 'in Him' back before the beginning of time.
But I don't believe that 'I' was chosen but the 'man up the street' wasn't.

I believe some hear the call and respond...and some don't even hear the call.
Yet I believe in times and seasons for all.

As you know, I believe in 'the restitution of all things'.
EVERY knee shall bow and EVERY tongue SHALL confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God. God Win's.

But, God sees our hearts from the beginning and He does have an elect.
( I believe in sonship as I have mentioned before, and the overcomers are the elect. ...because they overcame and walked always with God. Not perfect, but perfect trust in His working in us)

I'm only writing this stuff now because this Thread is empty, once others respond to the OP I will stay on topic.
 
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Dave L

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Thanks for your comments. I used to attack Calvinists and believed a lot like most today. But the greatest comfort came when God revealed Limited Atonement to me. (Calvin did not teach this, he believed as most in a universal atonement). But it works like this. If you believe in Christ it is only because he died for you especially. You could not believe otherwise. So your faith is a gift God gives only to those whom he saved, telling us he saved us. I felt like a knot untangled in my head when I grasped this and proved it from scripture. Before I concentrated on having faith. But now it's there no matter what. I dropped the flesh faith and enjoy the Holy Spirit faith instead.
 
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marksman

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[updated]

Oh dear oh dear. You are determined to impose your false teaching on anyone silly enough to listen.

Many fail to realize what the gifts of the Spirit did and how scripture does the same only better.

I don't and how does the scripture do the same and allow the lame man to walk?

Probably the most puzzling comparison would be Agabus the prophet telling the believers to prepare for famine and to provide for the church at Jerusalem. How can scripture compete with this?

Scripture does not compete with this as scripture is only informing us of what happened.

So the gifts can expire, but the results remain the same.

How? Give us an actual example you know about.

But in our day it is the Spirit’s leading within, through which we prompt others to take action.

This comment indicates that you have no idea how prophecy works.

The Spirit bears witness giving us faith for traveling in one direction while withholding it in other directions.

That is known as discernment which is a gift of the Spirit.

What would love do?

It covers a multitude of sins.

Replacing him with an idol based on their lack of learning or on their denominational affiliation.

That is what you are doing.

Tongues helped bring God’s new covenant words to the early disciples in fragments.

So the New Testament was given in tongues by God. In all the years I have been a Christian (66) and in all the theological training I have had and in all the theology books I own and have read, not once have I seen such a preposterous suggestion.

And Peter said their prophecy and tongues were subject to the private interpretation of the interpreter.

And the context is....?

He says; “And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. “We have also a more sure word of prophecy …. Knowing this first that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.” (2 Peter 1:18–21)

Meaning what?
 
D

Dave L

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Oh dear oh dear. You are determined to impose your false teaching on anyone silly enough to listen.

Many fail to realize what the gifts of the Spirit did and how scripture does the same only better.

I don't and how does the scripture do the same and allow the lame man to walk?

Probably the most puzzling comparison would be Agabus the prophet telling the believers to prepare for famine and to provide for the church at Jerusalem. How can scripture compete with this?

Scripture does not compete with this as scripture is only informing us of what happened.

So the gifts can expire, but the results remain the same.

How? Give us an actual example you know about.

But in our day it is the Spirit’s leading within, through which we prompt others to take action.

This comment indicates that you have no idea how prophecy works.

The Spirit bears witness giving us faith for traveling in one direction while withholding it in other directions.

That is known as discernment which is a gift of the Spirit.

What would love do?

It covers a multitude of sins.

Replacing him with an idol based on their lack of learning or on their denominational affiliation.

That is what you are doing.

Tongues helped bring God’s new covenant words to the early disciples in fragments.

So the New Testament was given in tongues by God. In all the years I have been a Christian (66) and in all the theological training I have had and in all the theology books I own and have read, not once have I seen such a preposterous suggestion.

And Peter said their prophecy and tongues were subject to the private interpretation of the interpreter.

And the context is....?

He says; “And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. “We have also a more sure word of prophecy …. Knowing this first that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.” (2 Peter 1:18–21)

Meaning what?
Find two Pentecostal churches that interpret your recorded "tongues message" the same and then you can prove your point.
 

marksman

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Find two Pentecostal churches that interpret your recorded "tongues message" the same and then you can prove your point.

I am waiting for you to prove your claim tongues have ceased. After about 50 posts on the subject, you have failed miserably to do so. All you give us is red herrings which have no relevance to the topic.
 

Berserk

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This post will make clear why Dave L is in danger of blaspheming against the Spirit. Jesus teaches that to attribute the power of the Spirit at work in Jesus' exorcisms to demonic power is to commit the unpardonable sin against the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:25-32). Beyond this, how does the NT church understand the unpardonable sin against the Holy Spirit. The answer can be found in a Christian document written in the NT era, The Teaching of the 12 Apostles, better known as Didache (c. 95 AD): "If any prophet speaks in the Spirit, you shall not test or judge him; for every sin will be forgiven, but this sin cannot be forgiven (11:7)." Irenaeus (180 AD) corroborates this interpretation of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, but extends it to "the prophetic gifts," by which he includes speaking in tongues:

"Others, in order to suppress the gift of the Spirit which ''in latter times, according as it has pleased the Father'' has been poured out upon the human race,...reject . . . the prophetic spirit. . . . [and,] because they do not wish to admit false prophets, [they] would drive out the grace of prophecy even from the Church. . . . It goes without saying that these same spirits no longer accepted St. Paul. For in his first epistle to the Corinthians he spoke in detail of the prophetic gifts . . . Thus, by their whole attitude they sin against the Spirit of God and fall into the unforgivable sin (Against All Heresies 3:11)."

Thus, in 5.6.1 Irenaeus, celebrates the ongoing practice of speaking in tongues well into the 2nd century:

In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of tongues."

"You are not lacking in any spiritual gift as you wait for the revealing (Greek: "apokalypsis") of our Lord Jesus Christ (1:7)."

Modern commentaries agree that "apocalypsis" here refers to Christ's 2nd coming, which he expects soon. Similarly, all commentaries agree that in 13:9-12 Paul teaches that speaking in tongues will cease only at the Second Coming, when we see Him "face to face:"

"As for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it wil come to an end.. For now we know only in part, and we prophesy only in part. But when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end...For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face."

No commentary overlooks the "face to face" reference to apply this to the completion of the biblical canon. None! So Paul would agree with Acts 2:38-39 the gift of the Spirit, including tongues, is intended for the entire church age:

"You will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you, for your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord calls to Him."

Luke-Acts knows nothing of an initial regenerative work of the Spirit prior to Spirit baptism. Indeed, Paul's question in Acts 19:2-6 makes it clear that "gift of the Holy Spirit" includes speaking in tongues: "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers?"
 
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marksman

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This post will make clear why Dave L is in danger of blaspheming against the Spirit. Jesus teaches that to attribute the power of the Spirit at work in Jesus' exorcisms to demonic power is to commit the unpardonable sin against the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:25-32). Beyond this, how does the NT church understand the unpardonable sin against the Holy Spirit. The answer can be found in a Christian document written in the NT era, The Teaching of the 12 Apostles, better known as Didache (c. 95 AD): "If any prophet speaks in the Spirit, you shall not test or judge him; for every sin will be forgiven, but this sin cannot be forgiven (11:7)." Irenaeus (180 AD) corroborates this interpretation of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, but extends it to "the prophetic gifts," by which he includes speaking in tongues:

"Others, in order to suppress the gift of the Spirit which ''in latter times, according as it has pleased the Father'' has been poured out upon the human race,...reject . . . the prophetic spirit. . . . [and,] because they do not wish to admit false prophets, [they] would drive out the grace of prophecy even from the Church. . . . It goes without saying that these same spirits no longer accepted St. Paul. For in his first epistle to the Corinthians he spoke in detail of the prophetic gifts . . . Thus, by their whole attitude they sin against the Spirit of God and fall into the unforgivable sin (Against All Heresies 3:11)."

Thus, in 5.6.1 Irenaeus, celebrates the ongoing practice of speaking in tongues well into the 2nd century:

In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of tongues."

"You are not lacking in any spiritual gift as you wait for the revealing (Greek: "apokalypsis") of our Lord Jesus Christ (1:7)."

Modern commentaries agree that "apocalypsis" here refers to Christ's 2nd coming, which he expects soon. Similarly, all commentaries agree that in 13:9-12 Paul teaches that speaking in tongues will cease only at the Second Coming, when we see Him "face to face:"

"As for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it wil come to an end.. For now we know only in part, and we prophesy only in part. But when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end...For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face."

No commentary overlooks the "face to face" reference to apply this to the completion of the biblical canon. None! So Paul would agree with Acts 2:38-39 the gift of the Spirit, including tongues, is intended for the entire church age:

"You will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you, for your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord calls to Him."

Luke-Acts knows nothing of an initial regenerative work of the Spirit prior to Spirit baptism. Indeed, Paul's question in Acts 19:2-6 makes it clear that "gift of the Holy Spirit" includes speaking in tongues: "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers?"

Brother, don't you know that according to Dave, all these people were motivated by Satan to say these things because Dave has it on good authority that tongues and the gifts of the spirit died with the death of the apostles?

So if you or I or anyone else speaks in tongues or performs a miracle we are heretics.

Dave claims the scripture is clear that if you do anything like that you are a heretic and you don't know what you are talking about.

So let me say it now. You are a very naughty boy.
 

Wafer

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There are three sources of spiritual information: God, Satan, and man's own heart. Very few people have any idea how to discern which one they are listening to. (They get sidetracked and prattle about "gift of discernment" instead.)

Example: The bible plainly says that speaking in tongues is a manifestation of the spirit and everybody who is born again of holy spirit can do it. Jesus said we could and Paul said we should. People say it is a gift, or it doesn't work any more, and they usually can not be persuaded otherwise. This is not blasphemy, it is merely the natural tendency to change God's word to something else, same as Eve did.