The great tribulation is rapidly approaching, survival depends on doing God's will Mat 7:21

[Ronald Nolette]

Actually, no, they don't (not physically or spiritually; even Jesus would tell you the same in John 3 in matters spiritual, for the carnal mind knows nothing of spiritual things of Heaven, and thus as the natural in death, so the spiritual in death):

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Job 14:21 His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them.

Psa_146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.​

Feel free to have this confirmed for you here:

Sincerely Dead - Aaron Earnest - June 22, 2019 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
Sincerely Dead - brother Aaron Earnest

https://archive.org/download/sincerely-dead/Sincerely Dead.pptx​

Luke 16, is a parable. Start reading in Luke 14, all the way through Luke 16. I can demonstrate this with many evidences (but I doubt you will want those, but if interested I will share them - they are irrefutable though). Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees:

Mat_13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Mar_4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.​

Ready to see? Seriously.

Ecclesiastes was wriotten before God revealed the after life to Israel.

And no Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable. Parables all have comparative terms in them : "such as", " "is as" "likened unot" etc.etc.

NO other parable mentions 2 people by name. The Jews knew of the afterlife and existence of the soul after death., So they knew exactly what He was speaking of!

That is why Jesus told the penitent thief that on that day, He would be with JKesus in paradise---not non-existence.

and that is also why Paul said that when we are absent from the body, we are present with the Lord. Present tense not future!

Also Jesus di dnot start any other parable by saying "There was a".... They were always things like: " The kingdom of heaven is likened unto".

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

We do believe however that he was enthroned as King in 1914 as I have stated.

Jesus was given all authority in heaven and on earth after His resurrection, 1980 years ago. That sounds like a king to me. This is a spiritual kingdom. But scripture points to a literal, physical kingdom on earth, the Millennial Kingdom. He will physically return as the angels said He ascended, in like manner. He will judge the world, rid the planet of sin and evil and rule His KINGDOM on earth for 1000 years - up close and personal.
All will bow their knees to Him and worship Him, everyone will know the Lord, all will be Christians.

Listen, many have made the error of predicting when the Great Tribulation would occur and have been wrong. It doesn't make them a false prophet unless they claimed they received that information from GOD. Charles Taze Russell claimed 1914 to be the date and when it didn't happen, he made up something to tell all His followers to cover up his error. However, Judge Rutherford took over after Charles death and set another date, 1925 and when that didn't happen, another and another.
Keep the flock going, keep them looking ahead. If they thought their leaders were wrong, they might leave the organization, so they lied to them .... over and over about so many things. To keep their congregants from being influenced by other Christian churches ( because they were certain would lose them if they did), they had to separate themselves, forbid them to attend any church with threats of disfellowship. Yes, all churches had to be off limits, labeled as evil and even to go as far as claiming they are all led by Satan.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You have read out of context. Revelation 20:5a is parenthetical (preparatory to the further unfolding, chiasm), read:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.​

So show that these resurrected lost are raised to battle the Lord at jerusalem on earth.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The man actually came from just outside the city, near the area of the tombs in the hills (Luke 8:32) near the city.

Luk 8:27 And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs.​

Previously, the devil had driven the man into the wilderness, a place away from others.

Luk 8:29 (For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.)​

Notice, as long as the devils had the man to torment, they were content. Without the man, and no man to tempt, they did not want to be driven into and confined to the wilderness, but wanted to be near the city so as to be able to have access to others to tempt and torment.

Devils love to torment and deceive mankind and feel the need to do it, being controlled no longer by the Holy Ghost, but by their own celestial carnal (bodily/flesh) natures. Without that, it's like taking away a cell phone or internet from someone addicted to it. They go stir crazy, insane, have withdrawals symptoms, etc.

And???? this does nothing to show that abussos means the wildnerness. It was not how the word was understood by the vulture. The abyss was the bottomless pit where demons could be cast to!

REv. 9:2
Revelation 9:2
And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. This is abussos also. why would an angel need a key to open the wilderness where devils sent people to?

 

[Robert Gwin]

NOT! Why is it critical?? Because if you are a JW and openly challenge that rruth as accurate- you will be disfellowshipped and shunned by their self proclaimed "Gods sole channel of communication on earth". They claim to be the only true faith of God on earth. And just like the other "one true faith" on earth (Romanism) they fail as well.

And it is best to live your life like yo ulove the Father and son. No matter how close the end is!!!




then you contradict the man made organization you are a part of!

I ask you read this from wikipedia and then pay close attention to the references. for almost all the references that declare Jesus returned invisibly to earth come form Watchtower material alone. You are contradicting Gods prophet, Gods prophet like organization and Gods sole channel of communication on earth as they love to boast about themselves!

I fully agree that you must love Jehovah and Jesus, and you show this by your obedience to them 1 Jn 5:3

The Bible identifies the faith sir, beyond a reasonable doubt. There will be no excuses upon Jesus' return. We teach Jesus received the crown in 1914, I believe that is true, obviously you don't. Neither of us can prove it, only time will. I have stated that most faiths believe we are deep into the last days, therefore while not agreeing on a date it happened, they obviously believe that the last days have been around for a while, even though they may not realize that Jesus' receiving the crown is actually the starting point of the last day stretch.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Robert,

Jesus is currently dressed, according to Revelation, as a Great High Priest (Revelation 1:12-20). He sits (rules) upon the throne of Grace:

Heb_4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.​

Yet, He had been doing that since AD 31.

Jesus is not seated upon the throne of His glory, until "the regeneration", and He comes in the 2nd Advent, as "KING of KINGS and LORD of LORDS":

Mat_19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Mat_25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Rev_17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Rev_19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.​

These have not happened yet, for Jesus still ministers in the Most Holy Place of the 3rd Heaven, and will do so until He throws down the censer and the smoke fills the temple so that no more may come in, and probation for man closes:

Rev 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev_15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Rev_22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
​

Jesus has not yet received the Kingdom:

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.​

He is still in process of receiving it. How do I know? The number of that kingdom is not yet made up in total until the final harvest comes in:

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.​

The final harvest (Revelation 14:13-20; Leviticus 23:33-44 (see vs 39)).

Jesus was not doing anything differently in 1914, that He was not already doing since 1844 (end of the 2,300 in Daniel 7:9-10,22(a,b), 8:13-14,26, 12:12; Revelation 3:7-8, 9:13-15, 10:6, 11:1-2, 14:6-7, etc).

1914 (tragic for war, yes, but it) is just a figment of the imagination of the ever changing WTS dates in regards Heavenly things

(read Carl Olof Jonsson's correspondence with the WTS here (I know you won't look, you've been told not to, so it is for others) [ https://archive.org/download/jehovahs-witnesses-carl-olof-jonsson-jonssons-watch-tower-correspondence/Jehovah's Witnesses - Carl Olof Jonsson - Jonsson's WatchTower Correspondence.pdf ]

and also see Gentile Times reconsidered (not perfect, but useful) here [ https://archive.org/download/jehovahs-witnesses-carl-olof-jonsson-the-gentile-times-reconsidered/Jehovah's Witnesses - Carl Olof Jonsson - The Gentile Times Reconsidered.pdf ]

and one can also read "God's Channel of Truth ..." here [ https://archive.org/download/jehovahs-witnesses-e-b-price-gods-channel-of-truth-is-it-the-watch-tower/Jehovah's Witnesses - E B Price - God's Channel Of Truth Is It The WatchTower.pdf ]

and Our Friends the JEHOVAH's Witnesses here [ https://archive.org/download/jehovahs-witnesses-e-b-price-our-friends-the-jehovahs-witnesses/Jehovah's Witnesses - E B Price - Our Friends The Jehovah's Witnesses.pdf ]

and one can also read JEHOVAH's Witnesses and Historical Idealism here [ https://archive.org/download/jehovahs-witnesses-thomas-daniels-historical-idealism-and-jehovahs-witnesses/Jehovah's Witnesses - Thomas Daniels - Historical Idealism and Jehovah's Witnesses.pdf ]

and in case any needs the WTS Kingdom Interlinear of 1969, they can see that here [ https://archive.org/download/jehovahs-witnesses-kingdom-interlinear-greek-scriptures-1969/Jehovah's Witnesses - Kingdom Interlinear Greek Scriptures 1969.pdf ]) in regards heavenly things:

Col_2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,​

We agree Matt, that Jesus is the now reigning King, however we disagree on when he received the crown.

 

[Robert Gwin]

The great tribulation is the second half - the mid trib rapture takes Christians out before the mark of the beast is given.

Shalom Aleichem

We believe the people will be marked (judged) during the tribulation as well.

 

[Robert Gwin]

it's horrible
and no one soul will get out of it -- but after physical death

yes God's kingdom will come :
but not by means of millions of christians physically dying .
Because then you missed the whole point :

the very fact of Revelation starting
is an END DATE . An ULTIMATE DATE .
In which either God - or the evil real has won .

see please :
it will not be "the christians who will die who will bring Gods kingdom closer".

the only group God will bring forth
and who will escape the trib
are the 144,000 sons and daughters [called : 'of God'] .
These are those who will represent the establishment of God's kingdom = in the other Reality .


This is not some "waiting on the bus" event ,
as if only God knows when it will happen and with whom :
He calls for ACTIVE UNDERSTANDING
or , He says ,
you are in SERIOUS DANGER TO GO THROUGH THE TRIB

ecause the rest of the people - inclusive believers - die .
- eventhough , ofcoourse , their souls will be saved after physical death
= after the trib ,
and they will be brought to eden paradise --- in the other reality ---
which will have been prepared for them by the 144
[=since eden was desolated after adam fell]

Yes sir I agree it will be the most horrible thing that has ever happened to mankind, however the Bible clearly teaches there will be survivors Mat 24:22; Rev 7:9,14

 

[Robert Gwin]

Jesus was given all authority in heaven and on earth after His resurrection, 1980 years ago. That sounds like a king to me. This is a spiritual kingdom. But scripture points to a literal, physical kingdom on earth, the Millennial Kingdom. He will physically return as the angels said He ascended, in like manner. He will judge the world, rid the planet of sin and evil and rule His KINGDOM on earth for 1000 years - up close and personal.
All will bow their knees to Him and worship Him, everyone will know the Lord, all will be Christians.

Listen, many have made the error of predicting when the Great Tribulation would occur and have been wrong. It doesn't make them a false prophet unless they claimed they received that information from GOD. Charles Taze Russell claimed 1914 to be the date and when it didn't happen, he made up something to tell all His followers to cover up his error. However, Judge Rutherford took over after Charles death and set another date, 1925 and when that didn't happen, another and another.
Keep the flock going, keep them looking ahead. If they thought their leaders were wrong, they might leave the organization, so they lied to them .... over and over about so many things. To keep their congregants from being influenced by other Christian churches ( because they were certain would lose them if they did), they had to separate themselves, forbid them to attend any church with threats of disfellowship. Yes, all churches had to be off limits, labeled as evil and even to go as far as claiming they are all led by Satan.

We teach that he went back to sit at Jehovah's right hand which would be for a period of time sir. Are you familiar with the prophecy found in Daniel chap 4 about the tree that would be cut down and banded for 7 times? That was about God's throne. Nebuchadnezzar was allowed to be King over God's people but haughtily failed to realize that God was allowing him to exercise authority over them. His foraging like a bull for 7 yrs stood for the removal of Kings sitting on His throne over His people. Zedekiah was the last King to set on Jehovah's throne, and Jesus was the next. The 7 times figures to 2520 yrs. We believe that time period called the times of the gentiles in some Bible versions ended in 1914, but at any rate 2520 yrs went way beyond Jesus' return to heaven, and the signs he gave his disciples to discern when that happened was way later as well. True, that was a dual prophecy as some of those signs were fulfilled in the first century with the destruction of Jerusalem, but that happened in 70 and about 25 yrs later Revelation was penned and the horses of chap 6 parallel those signs indicating they had a future fulfillment. Most everyone recognized that we are now currently in those last days. We are far from being the only faith that believes that, Ron.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I fully agree that you must love Jehovah and Jesus, and you show this by your obedience to them 1 Jn 5:3

The Bible identifies the faith sir, beyond a reasonable doubt. There will be no excuses upon Jesus' return. We teach Jesus received the crown in 1914, I believe that is true, obviously you don't. Neither of us can prove it, only time will. I have stated that most faiths believe we are deep into the last days, therefore while not agreeing on a date it happened, they obviously believe that the last days have been around for a while, even though they may not realize that Jesus' receiving the crown is actually the starting point of the last day stretch.

The Watchtower also teaches the Jesus invisibly returned in 1914! that is very untrue. Jesus has not been given His kigship yet. He is still in heaven preparing a place for me and true followers and making intercession for us. Sometime between now and His physical return to earth the Father will grant HIm His kingship.

Yes the bible does identify the faith- and the Watchtower has conditioned you to reject the saving part of that faith- Jesus' physical resurrection from the dead! But the faith is not a sect or denomination or movement- It is a belief shared by many, even if they disagree on peripheral issues

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Are you familiar with the prophecy found in Daniel chap 4 about the tree that would be cut down and banded for 7 times? That was about God's throne. Nebuchadnezzar was allowed to be King over God's people but haughtily failed to realize that God was allowing him to exercise authority over them. His foraging like a bull for 7 yrs stood for the removal of Kings sitting on His throne over His people. Zedekiah was the last King to set on Jehovah's throne, and Jesus was the next. The 7 times figures to 2520 yrs. We believe that time period called the times of the gentiles in some Bible versions ended in 1914, but at any rate 2520 yrs went way beyond Jesus' return to heaven, and the signs he gave his disciples to discern when that happened was way later as wel

This is an example of the JW's misinterpretation of scripture!

Daniel explains the dream to Nebuchchadnezzar. He is the tree that is cut down - for 7 years (times), he suffers a loss of his mind and forages on grass like cow.
"The tree that you saw, which grew and became strong, whose height reached to the heavens and which could be seen by all the earth, 21whose leaves were lovely and its fruit abundant, in which was food for all, under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and in whose branches the birds of the heaven had their home— 22it is you, O king, who have grown and become strong; for your greatness has grown and reaches to the heavens, and your dominion to the end of the earth."Dan. 4:20-22

Nebuchadnezzar reigned from 605 - 562 BC. Likely this 7 year period started around 576 BC allowing him a final 7 years after God returns his mind.
Besides, even if the 7 year period was symbolic for something else (2520 years), if you do the math, you come to 1944.
The time period in Daniel has absolutely nothing to do with the end times, (time periods in Daniel 12 or Revelation) which specifically state 1260 days and 42 months.

You must be baptized by the Holy Spirit to receive discernment. I have been to your baptisms. Nothing is spoken during the baptism, nothing is verbally confirmed by the person being baptized nor by the one baptizing. The person is just dunked in water. The Bible says to be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. We are to confirm publically prior to this, our belief that Jesus died for our sins and rose in the third day. We make a commitment to follow Him and obey. The ceremony is an outward ezlression kf an inward transformation. When we ask the Father for the Holy Spirit, we are NOT asking for power, a force, we are asking for God to dwell in us and guide us. He will give us power but thw Comforter, the Helper, Who counsels us, loves us, baptizes us, knows us, convicts us, justifies us, edifies us, knows all things is God. Water baptism is symbolic for the spiritual baptism, not just the cleansing off your sins, it is the immercing into their being. As we are in Christ, we are immersed into the Father AND THE HOLY SPIRIT, of whom you do not believe is a person. How can He baptize you if you think He is not a He but an It, a force. That is a dishonor. JW's do not believe they possess a spirit, an invisible new you, that goes to be with the Lord when you die. There are so many things you do not understand. Your saving Grace is that you believe in Jesus, that He died for your sins and rose on the third day according to the scriptures - or do you? You believe Jesus is the archangel Michael - that is the biggest problem I have with JWs. The whole Bible is about Jesus, the Messiah, Lord and Savior - only 5 verses about Michael. So I suppise the entire NT refers to our Lord Jesus and then mysteriously in Rev. 12, He is referred to as Michael. If you cannot grasp who Jesus really is, it is likely you wint grasp the Holy SPIRIT, nor is He dwelling inside you comuning with your spirit either.

 

[Robert Gwin]

The Watchtower also teaches the Jesus invisibly returned in 1914! that is very untrue. Jesus has not been given His kigship yet. He is still in heaven preparing a place for me and true followers and making intercession for us. Sometime between now and His physical return to earth the Father will grant HIm His kingship.

Yes the bible does identify the faith- and the Watchtower has conditioned you to reject the saving part of that faith- Jesus' physical resurrection from the dead! But the faith is not a sect or denomination or movement- It is a belief shared by many, even if they disagree on peripheral issues

We believe Jesus' presence began in 1914, better worded as his receiving his crown, or installed as King. We were far from understanding it at that time, but it is rather clear today. Jesus crowning went unobserved by most of the world sir, but his return will be known by all alive.

 

[Robert Gwin]

This is an example of the JW's misinterpretation of scripture!

Daniel explains the dream to Nebuchchadnezzar. He is the tree that is cut down - for 7 years (times), he suffers a loss of his mind and forages on grass like cow.
"The tree that you saw, which grew and became strong, whose height reached to the heavens and which could be seen by all the earth, 21whose leaves were lovely and its fruit abundant, in which was food for all, under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and in whose branches the birds of the heaven had their home— 22it is you, O king, who have grown and become strong; for your greatness has grown and reaches to the heavens, and your dominion to the end of the earth."Dan. 4:20-22

Nebuchadnezzar reigned from 605 - 562 BC. Likely this 7 year period started around 576 BC allowing him a final 7 years after God returns his mind.
Besides, even if the 7 year period was symbolic for something else (2520 years), if you do the math, you come to 1944.
The time period in Daniel has absolutely nothing to do with the end times, (time periods in Daniel 12 or Revelation) which specifically state 1260 days and 42 months.

You must be baptized by the Holy Spirit to receive discernment. I have been to your baptisms. Nothing is spoken during the baptism, nothing is verbally confirmed by the person being baptized nor by the one baptizing. The person is just dunked in water. The Bible says to be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. We are to confirm publically prior to this, our belief that Jesus died for our sins and rose in the third day. We make a commitment to follow Him and obey. The ceremony is an outward ezlression kf an inward transformation. When we ask the Father for the Holy Spirit, we are NOT asking for power, a force, we are asking for God to dwell in us and guide us. He will give us power but thw Comforter, the Helper, Who counsels us, loves us, baptizes us, knows us, convicts us, justifies us, edifies us, knows all things is God. Water baptism is symbolic for the spiritual baptism, not just the cleansing off your sins, it is the immercing into their being. As we are in Christ, we are immersed into the Father AND THE HOLY SPIRIT, of whom you do not believe is a person. How can He baptize you if you think He is not a He but an It, a force. That is a dishonor. JW's do not believe they possess a spirit, an invisible new you, that goes to be with the Lord when you die. There are so many things you do not understand. Your saving Grace is that you believe in Jesus, that He died for your sins and rose on the third day according to the scriptures - or do you? You believe Jesus is the archangel Michael - that is the biggest problem I have with JWs. The whole Bible is about Jesus, the Messiah, Lord and Savior - only 5 verses about Michael. So I suppise the entire NT refers to our Lord Jesus and then mysteriously in Rev. 12, He is referred to as Michael. If you cannot grasp who Jesus really is, it is likely you wint grasp the Holy SPIRIT, nor is He dwelling inside you comuning with your spirit either.

Yes sir, it is our interpretation, and we are either correct or not. Time will tell of course. One thing is undisputable, WW#1 happened in 1914 Ron.

Yes we believe that Jesus is Michael the highest angel based off of evidence found in God's word. And we do not believe the holy spirit is a person either as the Bible clearly showed when it was sent upon Jehovah's congregated people.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

We believe Jesus' presence began in 1914, better worded as his receiving his crown, or installed as King. We were far from understanding it at that time, but it is rather clear today. Jesus crowning went unobserved by most of the world sir, but his return will be known by all alive.

Sorry, but you do not believe what the watchtower teaches.

What Watchtower said
prior to 1914 What Watchtower claims it said
prior to 1914
"The year A.D. 1878 … clearly marks the time for the actual assuming of power as King of kings, by our present, spiritual, invisible Lord - …" The Time is At Hand (1911 ed) p.239 "The Watchtower has consistently presented evidence to honesthearted students of Bible prophecy that Jesus’ presence in heavenly Kingdom power began in 1914." Watchtower 1993 Jan 15 p.5
"But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble. Zion's Watch Tower 1894 Jul 15 p.226 "Jehovah's witnesses pointed to the year 1914, decades in advance, as marking the start of "the conclusion of the system of things." Awake! 1973 Jan 22 p.8

This is a fabrication, as Watchtower was dogmatic as to exactly what was going to occur in 1914. Expectations for 1914 were forcefully presented as fact, as shown in the following quotes.

• "the deliverance of the saints must take place some time before 1914 is manifest" Thy Kingdom Come (1911 ed.) p.228
• "the Day of Vengeance ... will end in October, 1914" The Day of Vengeance p.547
• "the great "time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation," will reach its culmination" The Time Is at Hand (1889 ed.) page 77 - page 78
• "we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God is already begun" The Time Is At Hand (1889 ed.) p.101
• "we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished near the end of A.D.1914." Studies in the Scriptures - The Time is at Hand (1889) 1911 ed. p.99
• "October, 1914, will witness the full end of Babylon" Watch Tower 1911 Jun 15 p.190 (reprints p.4842)
• "Christendom, will have passed away, as already shown in prophecy." Thy Kingdom Come (1891 ed.) p.153

Well the watchtower has a history of continually altering what it exactly knows as there prophetic utterances fail time after time.

I have heard JW's say "Well the light is getting brighter all the time".

But if the light in you was wrong (not just not fully understood but wrong) it was not light but darkness and if the light in you be darkness- how great is that darkness!

Yes WW 1 started in 1914, but that does not mean that Jesus started reigning invisibly somewhere! And as I have told Witnesses in the past- if this is how Jesus conducts His kingly reign according to the /Watchtower- something is radically wrong! The Watchtower king sure appears as an impotent king.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Yes sir, it is our interpretation, and we are either correct or not. Time will tell of course. One thing is undisputable, WW#1 happened in 1914 Ron.

Yes we believe that Jesus is Michael the highest angel based off of evidence found in God's word. And we do not believe the holy spirit is a person either as the Bible clearly showed when it was sent upon Jehovah's congregated people.

I like you Robert, you are honest and have good intentions. My intention wasn't to offend you. I have family members who are witnesses, I like them too. I just see them practicing, trying to be obedient, serving, spending countless hours spreading their version of the gospel. I just don't see the fruit of their labor. They know love and they know sin. One of them, who is dear to me, has knocked on doors for 50 years and has not known of one person who has become a Jehovah Witness due to her numerous return visits and efforts to persuade them about God and the Bible. Yet her heart perseveres.
In a hundred years your organization has increased her numbers to over 8 million, many of whom are just their generations.
God grows His church. The proof is in the pudding. In 1900 there were 500 million believers in Christ and now there are 2.65 billion Christians. That's growth.
I have been to churches that don't grow, either because of false doctrines or just lacking love or corruption within. God does grow His Church - that is His purpose. There is no perfect church within the Body because we are all sinners, but most of us are faithful that we are saved, secure, sealed by the Holy Spirit and have eternal life in Heaven. Btw, there is plenty of room for all of us up there. God is generous and merciful. Even those at the last moment of their miserable lives can call out the name of the Lord and be saved. There just might be many more saved at the end of time then we expect. Time will tell.

WWI did start in 1914. And WWII started in 1939 and the Great Tribulation will begin soon - if we are not already in it?

 

[Robert Gwin]

Sorry, but you do not believe what the watchtower teaches.

What Watchtower said
prior to 1914 What Watchtower claims it said
prior to 1914
"The year A.D. 1878 … clearly marks the time for the actual assuming of power as King of kings, by our present, spiritual, invisible Lord - …" The Time is At Hand (1911 ed) p.239 "The Watchtower has consistently presented evidence to honesthearted students of Bible prophecy that Jesus’ presence in heavenly Kingdom power began in 1914." Watchtower 1993 Jan 15 p.5
"But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble. Zion's Watch Tower 1894 Jul 15 p.226 "Jehovah's witnesses pointed to the year 1914, decades in advance, as marking the start of "the conclusion of the system of things." Awake! 1973 Jan 22 p.8

This is a fabrication, as Watchtower was dogmatic as to exactly what was going to occur in 1914. Expectations for 1914 were forcefully presented as fact, as shown in the following quotes.

• "the deliverance of the saints must take place some time before 1914 is manifest" Thy Kingdom Come (1911 ed.) p.228
• "the Day of Vengeance ... will end in October, 1914" The Day of Vengeance p.547
• "the great "time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation," will reach its culmination" The Time Is at Hand (1889 ed.) page 77 - page 78
• "we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God is already begun" The Time Is At Hand (1889 ed.) p.101
• "we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished near the end of A.D.1914." Studies in the Scriptures - The Time is at Hand (1889) 1911 ed. p.99
• "October, 1914, will witness the full end of Babylon" Watch Tower 1911 Jun 15 p.190 (reprints p.4842)
• "Christendom, will have passed away, as already shown in prophecy." Thy Kingdom Come (1891 ed.) p.153

Well the watchtower has a history of continually altering what it exactly knows as there prophetic utterances fail time after time.

I have heard JW's say "Well the light is getting brighter all the time".

But if the light in you was wrong (not just not fully understood but wrong) it was not light but darkness and if the light in you be darkness- how great is that darkness!

Yes WW 1 started in 1914, but that does not mean that Jesus started reigning invisibly somewhere! And as I have told Witnesses in the past- if this is how Jesus conducts His kingly reign according to the /Watchtower- something is radically wrong! The Watchtower king sure appears as an impotent king.

Truth is found in the Bible Ron, not anywhere else completely. Yes the Bible states the path of God's people is like the light that gets brighter and brighter until day dawns. Perhaps you misunderstand why that is in the Bible, but it is referring to knowledge. God's people have always had a limited understanding of Him, matter of fact the things Daniel penned he did not understand. What did God tell him? That in the last days, the very time that most of us believe we are living in, that His words would be understood. Yes sir, Jehovah does not leave His people out in the cold, He progressively reveals Bible truths regularly. No Jehovah's witness today believes that Jesus came in 1878, but I would imagine all of us believe he received the crown in 1914, and that satan was cast to the earth.

Since this is very scriptural, I would question why my faith was not aligning with things known today. Several faiths are, for instance I noticed a webpage while doing research on war, did you know the Catholics are, perhaps already have, changed their stance on what was once considered "just war"? What about the many faiths that have come to understand that God does not toast people in a burning hell forever? More and more faiths, perhaps you have seen this too, are incorporating God's name Jehovah into their talks. I even had one use it to me today. So if something gets revealed that shows you are not accepting God the way He desires, will you say God never changes and stay the way you are, or might you think that God has revealed this to His people as He has promised to do? Something to consider sir.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I like you Robert, you are honest and have good intentions. My intention wasn't to offend you. I have family members who are witnesses, I like them too. I just see them practicing, trying to be obedient, serving, spending countless hours spreading their version of the gospel. I just don't see the fruit of their labor. They know love and they know sin. One of them, who is dear to me, has knocked on doors for 50 years and has not known of one person who has become a Jehovah Witness due to her numerous return visits and efforts to persuade them about God and the Bible. Yet her heart perseveres.
In a hundred years your organization has increased her numbers to over 8 million, many of whom are just their generations.
God grows His church. The proof is in the pudding. In 1900 there were 500 million believers in Christ and now there are 2.65 billion Christians. That's growth.
I have been to churches that don't grow, either because of false doctrines or just lacking love or corruption within. God does grow His Church - that is His purpose. There is no perfect church within the Body because we are all sinners, but most of us are faithful that we are saved, secure, sealed by the Holy Spirit and have eternal life in Heaven. Btw, there is plenty of room for all of us up there. God is generous and merciful. Even those at the last moment of their miserable lives can call out the name of the Lord and be saved. There just might be many more saved at the end of time then we expect. Time will tell.

WWI did start in 1914. And WWII started in 1939 and the Great Tribulation will begin soon - if we are not already in it?

Thank you Ron for your kind comments sir, I like you as well and appreciate your sincerity. I truly hope you are right about God accepting multiple faiths, but I cannot see it scripturally. Let me assure you that you have not offended me sir, I prefer people to be honest and straightforward in a positive way. We all know that we are going to have differences in beliefs, but we must recognize that it is not our right to determine how or who a person worships. The world has seen hitler try that. I have many friends who do not worship my God, matter of fact since I am disfellowshipped, most of whom I associate with do not. Only a couple of brothers and sisters have anything to do with me as far as association goes. A few more do speak to me.

Like you we do believe the faith is increasing, and that we are right next to the great tribulation. Like you as well this tells us that we are getting very near to fulfilling Mat 24:14. I wouldn't say WW#2 had any Biblical significance, the sign given at Mat 24:7 was a big war in contrast to previous conflicts v6. Clearly it was an outstanding war since the world, not us named it WW#1, and I think they even used the term the war to end all wars, which if they did were clearly in error. We teach that Armageddon will be that war, although there is one still yet to come even after that Rev 20:8. That has always been a bit confusing for me.

I am sure that like me you desire to see the fulfillment of Rev 22:20. What a beautiful day for all of us.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Truth is found in the Bible Ron, not anywhere else completely. Yes the Bible states the path of God's people is like the light that gets brighter and brighter until day dawns. Perhaps you misunderstand why that is in the Bible, but it is referring to knowledge. God's people have always had a limited understanding of Him, matter of fact the things Daniel penned he did not understand. What did God tell him? That in the last days, the very time that most of us believe we are living in, that His words would be understood. Yes sir, Jehovah does not leave His people out in the cold, He progressively reveals Bible truths regularly. No Jehovah's witness today believes that Jesus came in 1878, but I would imagine all of us believe he received the crown in 1914, and that satan was cast to the earth.

Since this is very scriptural, I would question why my faith was not aligning with things known today. Several faiths are, for instance I noticed a webpage while doing research on war, did you know the Catholics are, perhaps already have, changed their stance on what was once considered "just war"? What about the many faiths that have come to understand that God does not toast people in a burning hell forever? More and more faiths, perhaps you have seen this too, are incorporating God's name Jehovah into their talks. I even had one use it to me today. So if something gets revealed that shows you are not accepting God the way He desires, will you say God never changes and stay the way you are, or might you think that God has revealed this to His people as He has promised to do? Something to consider sir.

Well it is not very scriptural which is why we are discussing this.

But the watchtower has repeatedly taught its people against reading the bible alone as that is dangerous! They even wrote that if one just read the bible alone they would be in darkness. but if that they just read Watchtower materia alone they would be in the light within 2 years for they would have the light of SCripture! They have never recanted that position since they wrote it in the 1980's.

So though you say truth is found in trhe Bible, as a faithful Jehovah witness what you really mean is that truth is found in the anointed classes interpretation of SCripture they give you in all the publications.

You will not find a verse in SCripture that says a world war on earth is a sign that Satan was cast out of heaven and Jesus receiving His crown and began ruling the earth as king.

I know the Watchtower uses REv. 12:9 to say Satan was cast out to earth from heaven in 1914, but anyone who has not been told how to think about the scriptures sees simple truths:

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Why the Watchtower has lied to its followers:

1. Since 1914 there has been no large increase of persecution of Israel. She is the woman who brought forth Jesus. The church or the watchtower did not birth Jesus.

2. The woman is protected - WW 2 shows that the watchtower is not protected

3. There has been no significant global increase in persecution of Christians.

Sorry but the bible is the truth and it shows the Watchtower prognostications and proclamations like 1914 to be a lie!

 

[Robert Gwin]

Well it is not very scriptural which is why we are discussing this.

But the watchtower has repeatedly taught its people against reading the bible alone as that is dangerous! They even wrote that if one just read the bible alone they would be in darkness. but if that they just read Watchtower materia alone they would be in the light within 2 years for they would have the light of SCripture! They have never recanted that position since they wrote it in the 1980's.

So though you say truth is found in trhe Bible, as a faithful Jehovah witness what you really mean is that truth is found in the anointed classes interpretation of SCripture they give you in all the publications.

You will not find a verse in SCripture that says a world war on earth is a sign that Satan was cast out of heaven and Jesus receiving His crown and began ruling the earth as king.

I know the Watchtower uses REv. 12:9 to say Satan was cast out to earth from heaven in 1914, but anyone who has not been told how to think about the scriptures sees simple truths:

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Why the Watchtower has lied to its followers:

1. Since 1914 there has been no large increase of persecution of Israel. She is the woman who brought forth Jesus. The church or the watchtower did not birth Jesus.

2. The woman is protected - WW 2 shows that the watchtower is not protected

3. There has been no significant global increase in persecution of Christians.

Sorry but the bible is the truth and it shows the Watchtower prognostications and proclamations like 1914 to be a lie!

Why are we sent Ron? You see sir, whether we are God's people or not, God does send people out to teach others. The Bible has been complete for centuries, yet we are sent out, why? Is it not to help others to understand what the Bible really teaches? Why did Jesus assign the faithful slave? If it was to supply spiritual food for his flock, which I believe it is, is it not the understanding of what is already written that will be revealed through them? They certainly are not here to provide a new Bible. Is it to feed people physically? Not likely Mat 6:33

What we teach is either true or false for sure, and I guarantee you that some of the things we teach will be false as we have discovered and therefore we change, something that many faiths will not do. We openly state that we will not have perfect truth until the end of the millennial reign of Christ, although when the Kingdom comes we will be much closer to it.

Fact is sir, not one faith has absolute truth at this time, but if you show me one I will certainly go there. In fact, show me one and I will give you the scriptural reason why they do not have absolute truth.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Why are we sent Ron? You see sir, whether we are God's people or not, God does send people out to teach others. The Bible has been complete for centuries, yet we are sent out, why? Is it not to help others to understand what the Bible really teaches? Why did Jesus assign the faithful slave? If it was to supply spiritual food for his flock, which I believe it is, is it not the understanding of what is already written that will be revealed through them? They certainly are not here to provide a new Bible. Is it to feed people physically? Not likely Mat 6:33

What we teach is either true or false for sure, and I guarantee you that some of the things we teach will be false as we have discovered and therefore we change, something that many faiths will not do. We openly state that we will not have perfect truth until the end of the millennial reign of Christ, although when the Kingdom comes we will be much closer to it.

Fact is sir, not one faith has absolute truth at this time, but if you show me one I will certainly go there. In fact, show me one and I will give you the scriptural reason why they do not have absolute truth.

I am not arguing the command to go! I believe i nmssions and have gone on many mission trips to many countries as well as to neighbors, strangers and ministered in the locasl jail as well as TV, RADIO and print.

When the Watchtower light gets brighter and the anointed leaders tell you to believe that Jesus physically rose from th edead then I can accpet Watchtower light.

Until then as lo9ng as you rpeach good works are necessary for salvation and that Jesus did not rise form the dead in the body He died in, you are allowing th eWatchtower to have you preach anotyher Gospel other than the one once for all time handed down to the church. I cannot apologize for my direct language- eterntiy is at stake for you.

And yes- if you die, rejecting the physical resurrection of Jesus from the dead- you will also find out that the light the Watchtower has taught about no eternal torment for the lost was darkness as well.