Looking for advice: Can women be pastors

Truth7t7 · Jun 9, 2018

OzSpen said:
That's an assertion that provides no evidence.

I have demonstrated over and over in this thread that women have active ministries of deacons and pastor-teachers and teachers alone.

I plan on providing no more evidence.

Oz

You have provided no evidence, none.

Pastor's and Deacon's are to be married men, women are to keep silent in the Church.

1 Timothy 3:1-13KJV
3 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

A woman is to remain silent in the Church service, at no time within the Church does a woman exercise authority over the man.

1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

A woman is to obey and love her husband and family, be a home maker, simple.

Titus 2:3-5KJV
3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

In Love!

Hidden In Him · Jun 9, 2018

Truth7t7 said:
Pastor's and Deacon's are to be married men, women are to keep silent in the Church.

Hey, Truth. Not that I'm seeking to antagonize, or go after you. But what do you think of my response in Post #175? I'm curious since you never responded. What would be your counter to it?

Truth7t7 · Jun 9, 2018

Hidden In Him said:
Ok LC627, I am going to explain this to you in a way that will open your eyes, but I'll need you to pay close attention. I have many gifts, but my strongest is as a teacher of God's word. I count many of those who have responded to you in this thread as friends, so I don't mean to cause any strife by contradicting them, but most have it wrong.

Here is what you need to understand: In every single passage where this topic comes up in the NT, it is not discussing men and women but husbands and wives. The translators do an incredibly poor job of communicating this to the modern reader because they don't translate the original properly in the passages in question. The reason is because the Greek words for "men" and "women" are just as often translated "husbands" and "wives." You must look to the context to know which is the correct rendering.

Now watch:

1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

These verses are not about women, they are about wives. The proper translation should be:

1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your wives keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for wives to speak in the church.

Notice how he says, "but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law." What law? He is referring to Genesis 3:16, which applies specifically to wives, not women. When you ask for someone to show you where the law states no woman can teach a man, you get dead silence.

Watch again:

Titus 2:3-5KJV
3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Again this in not a passage about women. It is a passage about wives.
Proper translation should be:

Titus 2:3-5KJV
3 The aged (widowed or married) women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young wives to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

That what word of God not be blasphemed? Genesis 3:16.
Watch again:

1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

He was not talking here about women. He was talking about wives, and using the first husband and wife as his example, now relating the entire Genesis story to his argument.
Proper translation should be:

1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the wife learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a wife to teach, nor to usurp authority over her husband, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but his wife being deceived was in the transgression.

Why were wives not allowed to teach their husbands? Because when a man and woman enter into a marriage agreement, they agree to become a reflection of the marriage between Christ and His bride the church, and the bride does not teach Christ anything. A husband must assume the responsibility to become her teacher in the word as a reflection of Christ to His bride ("husbands love your wives, cleansing them with the washing of the water in the word"), and she must assume the responsibility to hear and obey the word of God coming through him as the bride to Christ ("wives obey your husbands"), which means a man assumes an incredible responsibility spiritually when he marries. He will be held accountable to God for teaching her accurately.

This means that women are in no way inferior as teachers, and there is actually no NT command that forbids a woman from teaching in any capacity. The restriction merely applies to wives teaching their husbands, because inside the marriage relationship this would constitute "usurping authority" over him, and undermine their responsibility to be a reflection of Christ entering into relationship with the church.

Please respond if you read this. Not many understand the issue correctly.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him.

You try to create a new category "wives", as if this is going to allow females to pastor and teach?

I don't agree with your new category, as it states "Women"

What' the purpose, you believe through your new interpretation, women can now pastor and teach over men?

Hidden In Him · Jun 9, 2018

Truth7t7 said:
What' the purpose, you believe through your new interpretation, women can now pastor and teach over men?

No, no. Before we get into all of that, I was wondering if you would address the actual wording in context, understanding that translation in the Greek can go either way.

Truth7t7 said:
You try to create a new category "wives", as if this is going to allow females to pastor and teach?

I don't agree with your new category, as it states "Women"

I'm not creating a new category. I'm giving you what the Greek words here must mean in context. I was asking if you had something on the passages you quoted (about 18 times in this thread btw, LoL, but no harm no foul) that would prove the wording should be "women" rather than "wives," based on the internal context of the passages themselves, since as I stated, the Greek word γυνή (Strong's 1135) can be translated either way. I can show you numerous places in the NT to prove what I'm talking about.

Truth7t7 · Jun 9, 2018

Hidden In Him said:
No, no. Before we get into all of that, I was wondering if you would address the actual wording in context, understanding that translation in the Greek can go either way.

I'm not creating a new category. I'm giving you what the Greek words here must mean in context. I was asking if you had something on the passages you quoted (about 18 times in this thread btw, LoL, but no harm no foul) that would prove the wording should be "women" rather than "wives," based on the internal context of the passages themselves, since as I stated, the Greek word γυνή (Strong's 1135) can be translated either way. I can show you numerous places in the NT to prove what I'm talking about.

I disagree with your new wording, the King James translators did a great job.

What are you trying to accomplish?

Let's go with your wording, what's the outcome?

Women can now Pastor and Teach over men at this new revelation?

Hidden In Him · Jun 9, 2018

Truth7t7 said:
I disagree with your new wording

Before we got to any of the rest of it, I wanted to know on what grounds you disagreed with my wording from the context of the passages in question. Simply saying that the KJV translators did a great job without offering any support for exactly HOW they did a good job isn't exactly what I was hoping for.

But never mind. Just curious. Not something I wanted to get into an argument over.

OzSpen · Jun 9, 2018

Hidden In Him said:
Thanks. I take the position that neither is mutually exclusive. Scholarship is not only a beautiful but absolutely essential thing. It becomes most trustworthy when properly directed and made use of through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Don't go to too much trouble. I was merely trying to track down his citations of commentators before the 13th century.

Appreciate your input, and thanks again.

HiH,

Douglas Moo in f/n 32 regarding Junia being feminine [in Rom 16:7] before the 13th century, he refers to:

‘See the list in’ Joseph A Fitzmeyer, Romans: A New Translation with Introduction and Commentary, New York: Doubleday, 1993. He provides no citation from Fitzmeyer, except to add ‘the only possible exception is Origen, who, according to Rufinus’s translation of his commentary in Migne … reads a masculine name. But Migne’s text (notoriously corrupt) is probably in error; Origen apparently read a feminine name here (cf. Brooten, “Junia,” p. 141; Lampe, “Roman Christians,” p. 223)’

Moo stated that ‘scholars have recently again inclined decisively to this same view and probably with good reason. For while a contracted form of Junianus would fit quite well in this list of greetings (for Paul uses several other such contractions), we have no evidence elsewhere for this contracted form of the name. On the other hand, the Latin “Junia” was a very common name. Probably, then, “Junia” was the wife of Andronicus (note the other husband and wife pairs in this list, Prisca and Acquila [v. 3] and [probably] Philologus and Julia [v. 15]) (Moo 1996:922).

Moo’s support for recent scholars being inclined to Junia as feminine is in f/n 33 (Moo 1996:922), which states:

See, e.g. Brooten, ‘Junia,” pp. 141; Fiorenza, “Missionaries, Apostles, Coworkers,” p. 430; R. R. Schulz, “Romans 17:7: Junia or Junias?” ExpTim 98 (1986-87), 109-10; Richardson, “From Apostles to Virgins,” pp. 238-239; Lampe, “Roman Christians,” pp. 223-24 (though he is more cautious in [a German publication]); R. S. Cervin, “A Note Regarding the Name ‘Junia

’ in Romans 16.7,” NTS (199 4, 464-70….

I hope that helps as a starter.

You could do your own original research by reading the early church fathers and writers to the 13th century online, to find the gender of Junia. Here’s s list of the writings of the ECF in New Advent: Church Fathers. This task is made easier in this IT age with search facilities in programmes and websites.

I’ll let you follow up on some of these articles if you have access to EBSCO and Google Scholar.

Blessings in Christ,

Oz

Works consulted

Moo, D J 1996. The Epistle to the Romans (The New International Commentary on the New Testament). Grand Rapids, Michigan: Grand Rapids, Michigan / Cambridge, U.K: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

Truth7t7 · Jun 10, 2018

Hidden In Him said:
Before we got to any of the rest of it, I wanted to know on what grounds you disagreed with my wording from the context of the passages in question. Simply saying that the KJV translators did a great job without offering any support for exactly HOW they did a good job isn't exactly what I was hoping for.

But never mind. Just curious. Not something I wanted to get into an argument over.

The scripture below is very clear on a woman's role. The historical church record also validates the scripture you read below.

Why do you desire to change scripture and the historical church precedence, why?

Pastors And Deacons Are To Be Married Men, Of Good Report, Ruling Their Own Houses Well.

1 Timothy 3:1-13KJV
3 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

A woman is to remain silent in the Church service, at no time within the Church does a woman exercise authority over the man.

1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

A woman is to obey and love her husband and family, be a home maker, simple.

Titus 2:3-5KJV
3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Hidden In Him · Jun 10, 2018

Truth7t7 said:
A woman is to remain silent in the Church service, at no time within the Church does a woman exercise authority over the man.

1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

A woman is to obey and love her husband and family, be a home maker, simple.

Titus 2:3-5KJV
3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

I'm getting more laughs this weekend... LoL.

Truth, please. It's ok, we don't have to talk about this. I've told you that. But this is precisely WHY I told you we needed to address the wording in these passages IN THEIR CONTEXT. I knew you were going to do this again, LoL. I knew you would go right back to quoting these passages as if they support your position if we never addressed them specifically, word for word in context, and still you want to keep this discussion up WITHOUT doing so. Goodness sakes....

Just give it a rest for Heaven's sake before you become the first man in Forum history to quote the same passages more than a dozen times over without ever dealing with them internally. I'm fine with ending it.

Blessings in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Your friend,
Hidden

Hidden In Him · Jun 10, 2018

OzSpen said:
HiH,

Douglas Moo in f/n 32 regarding Junia being feminine [in Rom 16:7] before the 13th century, he refers to:

‘See the list in’ Joseph A Fitzmeyer, Romans: A New Translation with Introduction and Commentary, New York: Doubleday, 1993. He provides no citation from Fitzmeyer, except to add ‘the only possible exception is Origen, who, according to Rufinus’s translation of his commentary in Migne … reads a masculine name. But Migne’s text (notoriously corrupt) is probably in error; Origen apparently read a feminine name here (cf. Brooten, “Junia,” p. 141; Lampe, “Roman Christians,” p. 223)’

Thanks again for the help. Actually, I would simply prefer reading Fitzmeyer's list since he had already done the work. But apparently my local college library has a copy, so I may go check it out if I can find some time.
UL Lafayette Libraries Catalog Item Display - Bible. Romans. English. Fitzmyer. 1993

Much appreciated.

amadeus · Jun 10, 2018

Triumph1300 said:
Yes, mom, dad and two kids in restaurant:

All looking at their phones! Zombies!

Consider that zombies are the walking dead. Is that not what every person born to woman was, a zombie, before they met Jesus and obtained Life?

Windmillcharge · Jun 11, 2018

Truth7t7 said:
You have provided no evidence, none

Of how many single women serve as missionaries, preaching the gospel to men. In the missionary societies your church supports.

Truth7t7 · Jun 11, 2018

Windmillcharge said:
Of how many single women serve as missionaries, preaching the gospel to men. In the missionary societies your church supports.

We are talking about "Church Order"

Pastors And Deacons Are To Be Married men, women are to keep silent in the Church, simple.

Your female mission worker sharing the gospel message, has nothing to do with church order.

Windmillcharge · Jun 14, 2018

Truth7t7 said:
We are talking about "Church Order"

Pastors And Deacons Are To Be Married men, women are to keep silent in the Church, simple.

Your female mission worker sharing the gospel message, has nothing to do with church order.

I'm talking about women standing up and preaching the gospel to men in a foriegn country.
Of women exercising spiritual discipline to men who attend the church they are the pastor at.

You are arguing that women should not do this and biblicaly you are correct.

I am asking whether the missionary societies you and your church support, conform to what the bible teaches.

To put it simple are you a hypocrite for advocating one thing yet supporting the very thing you are arguing against.

OzSpen · Jun 15, 2018

Windmillcharge said:
I'm talking about women standing up and preaching the gospel to men in a foriegn country.
Of women exercising spiritual discipline to men who attend the church they are the pastor at.

You are arguing that women should not do this and biblicaly you are correct.

I am asking whether the missionary societies you and your church support, conform to what the bible teaches.

To put it simple are you a hypocrite for advocating one thing yet supporting the very thing you are arguing against.

Wind,

The missionary societies and churches conform to what the Bible teaches of women teaching men (Eph 4:11 does not restrict the gift of pastor-teachers to men only), but it's not the traditional view.

This silence of women teachers in a mixed audience, 'for good biblical reasons', has been challenged in this thread and by scholars, but the traditionalists keep pushing the agenda.

See my article: Anti-women in ministry juices flowing

Oz

Hidden In Him · Jun 15, 2018

OzSpen said:
See my article: Anti-women in ministry juices flowing

I got a chuckle out of this line:
"I engaged in an email exchange with a pastor of such a church locally and he told me that I would find his church too contemporary. I visited once. It is not that being modern is the problem; it’s the lack of biblical content. There was no Bible reading in the entire service and to call the topical ditty a sermon is to redefine the word."

Nice starting the day off with a laugh, LoL.

Btw, skimmed through to another one of your articles, and I like this point a lot:

"How is it possible to have women to ‘keep silent in the churches’ when the very same book of 1 Corinthians 11:3-5 speaks of ‘every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head’ (ESV). The context is wives (who are women) prophesying in the church publicly. Women can’t prophesy with their mouths shut. We either have a contradiction (which I don’t think it is) between 1 Cor 14:33b-34 and 1 Cor 11:3-5 or we have the ‘silence’ of women in 1 Cor 14 to be addressing a different issue in the Corinthian church."

Truth7t7 · Jun 15, 2018

OzSpen said:
Wind,

The missionary societies and churches conform to what the Bible teaches of women teaching men (Eph 4:11 does not restrict the gift of pastor-teachers to men only), but it's not the traditional view.

This silence of women teachers in a mixed audience, 'for good biblical reasons', has been challenged in this thread and by scholars, but the traditionalists keep pushing the agenda.

See my article: Anti-women in ministry juices flowing

Oz

Traditionalist?

You mean bible believing Christians, following the plain and simple teachings of scripture

1. Pastors And Deacons Are To Be Married men.

2.Women are to keep silent in the churches.

Of course things are changing, feminism and homosexuality have entered the apostate churches, the time is growing even closer to the second coming, end of this world.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Ac28 · Jun 16, 2018

Hidden In Him said:
Before we got to any of the rest of it, I wanted to know on what grounds you disagreed with my wording from the context of the passages in question. Simply saying that the KJV translators did a great job without offering any support for exactly HOW they did a good job isn't exactly what I was hoping for.

But never mind. Just curious. Not something I wanted to get into an argument over.

Of course, you're absolutely dead wrong. I pray that no one believed you, because women should definitely be totally silent in the church. If I see a women preaching, I leave. A women preaching is heretical (as is the church that hired her), according to all the scripture that Truth7t7 rightfully quoted. According to this link, both wife and woman can used for that Greek word
gyne - Strong's number G1135 - Greek Lexicon | Bible Tools - Messie2vie

I have 32 different Bibles on e-Sword. In both 1Tim 2: vs11 and vs12, for example, 1 Bible says wife (3%), 1 says neither wife nor woman, and 30 (94%) say woman. The translator of the ABP Bible, the only one that said wife, was probably an unmarried woman and a preacher on the side. Sneaky.

That same Greek word is translated woman in these verses. Would you substitute "wife" for these?
Rev 12:1
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:6
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Rev 17:4
And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Rev 17:9
And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Rev 17:18
And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

You must have badly wanted the Bible to say that women could preach, to try and alter things like you did. I'm sure it wan't intentional.

Hidden In Him · Jun 16, 2018

Ac28 said:
Of course, you're absolutely dead wrong.

No offense, but I stopped reading after these words, Ac28. You're theology is usually so... different that I don't always have time for delving into it, and right now is one of those times. Bu I will see what I can do to take a look at your post later on, God willing.

Blessings in Christ, as always.
Hidden In Him

Ac28 · Jun 16, 2018

Hidden In Him said:
No offense, but I stopped reading after these words, Ac28. You're theology is usually so... different that I don't always have time for delving into it, and right now is one of those times. Bu I will see what I can do to take a look at your post later on, God willing.

Blessings in Christ, as always.
Hidden In Him

I see you're unable to answer me. When 30 out of 31 Bibles use woman in both 1Tim 2:11-12, that's good enough for me, a the only stanger is one I've never heard of, The Apostolic Bible Polyglot . So, you are absolutely wrong, aren't you? Where did you come up with that nonsense? Is your girlfriend a preacher?

Looking for advice: Can women be pastors

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