"Christians don't know what they believe." - until they are brainwashed

[quietthinker]

"Christians don't know what they believe." - until they are brainwashed​

Brainwashing happens to us all it matters not who we are or where we are from.
In a certain sense brainwashing is required from/of the brainwashing

Deconstructing is as indispensable as building on a solid foundation if one wants healthy perspectives......in particular when it comes to understanding the character of God. Misunderstand the character of God and every aspect of how we think and talk and behave becomes questionable.....and life becomes consumed with image projection and the avoidance of self honesty.

 

[Episkopos]

Yes there are. Those who initially believe in Yahweh as God and Yeshua as the Messiah will need help in understanding. Teachers help with that. At some point, they need only a community who depends on God to give truth as they read scripture and discuss among themselves in order to grow. A building with a Pastor and teacher can start the seed, but God gives the growth.

The only problem with that is that there are MANY decoys out there. If the person has a job title saying "pastor" in a building labeled as "church"...that's a decoy.

Spiritual gifting doesn't come with titles.

 

[Spyder]

The only problem with that is that there are MANY decoys out there. If the person has a job title saying "pastor" in a building labeled as "church"...that's a decoy.

Spiritual gifting doesn't come with titles.

Are you thinking that I don't agree with you?

 

[Episkopos]

Are you thinking that I don't agree with you?

Not at all....just being specific.

 

[St. SteVen]

Brainwashing happens to us all it matters not who we are or where we are from.
In a certain sense brainwashing is required from/of the brainwashing

Deconstructing is as indispensable as building on a solid foundation if one wants healthy perspectives......in particular when it comes to understanding the character of God. Misunderstand the character of God and every aspect of how we think and talk and behave becomes questionable.....and life becomes consumed with image projection and the avoidance of self honesty.

Outstanding post! IMHO
Thanks. Great points.

As a reminder of my original thoughts when I launched this topic... (as best I can recall them) - LOL
Lest anyone get the wrong idea about where I am coming from. (mostly for readers, I think you have followed me the whole way)

I am very much in favor of Christian education for new believers. And MORE SO for discipleship.
We are drawn to Christ by a deep need in our vacuous soul. An emptiness that longs to be filled by God.
And when we kneel at the cross, as it were, and throw ourselves on God's mercy, he meets us there
to do such a marvelous work of unburdening us of our guilt and shame and pouring life into us.

For some this may be a more gradual work. My own wife is in this category,
whereas my own experience was quite dramatic. Nonetheless, a transformative work of
a re-established relationship begins to take form. Born of the Spirit.

That being said, I chose the word "brainwashed" in the topic title to indicate my dismay with
how the church has traditionally handled this. I actually remember seeing the book title Know what You Believe
and being so appalled by it. Say what? As if the author is going to inform us of what we believe. - LOL

With the title seemingly containing this marvelous parenthetical insult,
"You are SO ignorant, you don't even KNOW what you believe!" (dummy)
I think that should have been the subtitle on the book cover. I would love to see the looks on
book store browsers faces when they read that one. - LOL



/

 

[St. SteVen]

Deconstructing is as indispensable as building on a solid foundation if one wants healthy perspectives......in particular when it comes to understanding the character of God. Misunderstand the character of God and every aspect of how we think and talk and behave becomes questionable.....and life becomes consumed with image projection and the avoidance of self honesty.

Okay now that I got those thoughts in post #245 off my chest I can respond to
this quoted treasure trove above of a delicious paragraph. (yummy)

To learn and unlearn and relearn.

Once we are full of the church learning that told us what we believe, SOME of us encounter moments
when we have uneasy thoughts about what were given as "truth". Suddenly the truthfulness is in question.
Since we were TAUGHT that unbelievers end up in eternal conscious torment, we need to proceed with caution.
We don't want to lose our Get-Out-of-Hell-Free card! What to do, what to do... ???

So we look into it. And perhaps we find other believers that share our concerns. This is a great relief.
We collect the appropriate apologetics (chapter and verse) and are ready to make a stand.
Which will most likely be met with disapproval by those on the other side of the issue.

I love that you call this process "self honesty". Being honest with oneself.
But I believe it is Spirit-directed. That being said, it brings into question the belief we are putting aside.
Does it mean that what we put aside was NOT Spirit-directed? Or does it mean there is some latitude in this
matter of ones own beliefs? Is it really an issue if we differ in the non-essentials?

We can't even all agree on what the essentials are. Much less the non-essentials.

/ cc: @Augustin56

 

[Lambano]

One of those factoids I remember from the sociology fuzzy-studies classes is that all groups have ways of defining who they are. Identity is important! Deviants get punished, and if necessary, removed from the group. This is necessary for the group to survive in a hostile world. I also note that group identity can evolve over time.

Those "What we believe" tracts boil down to group identity definitions. "This is who we are. Do you still want to be part of our group?" If enough members say, "No, this is not who I am", they can try to change the group identity (very challenging), or leave and find their own group(s).

Anomie, in societies or individuals, a condition of instability resulting from a breakdown of standards and values or from a lack of purpose or ideals.

"Love thy anomie." - Allan Sherman

 

[Ezra]

You didn't know the Bible before you got saved? Imagine that. - LOL
But now that the church told you what to believe you know all about it, right?
Did you bother to read the OP? (opening post) Are you evangelical?

"Evangelicals have absolutely no idea what they believe." - John MacArthur

/

i have your LoL i am very much evangelic and i really could care less what John MacArthur says. dont be twisting my words

 

[Ezra]

Once we are full of the church learning that told us what we believe, SOME of us encounter moments

your full of your self the church i started in which is the Church i now pastor. did not indoctrinate me.. they taught me how to study to show myself approved rightly dividing the truth.
you on the other hand come off sounding as if your in the been there done that got it all together crowd . the pastor preached the truth

 

[quietthinker]

Okay now that I got those thoughts in post #245 off my chest I can respond to
this quoted treasure trove above of a delicious paragraph. (yummy)

To learn and unlearn and relearn.

Once we are full of the church learning that told us what we believe, SOME of us encounter moments
when we have uneasy thoughts about what were given as "truth". Suddenly the truthfulness is in question.
Since we were TAUGHT that unbelievers end up in eternal conscious torment, we need to proceed with caution.
We don't want to lose our Get-Out-of-Hell-Free card! What to do, what to do... ???

So we look into it. And perhaps we find other believers that share our concerns. This is a great relief.
We collect the appropriate apologetics (chapter and verse) and are ready to make a stand.
Which will most likely be met with disapproval by those on the other side of the issue.

I love that you call this process "self honesty". Being honest with oneself.
But I believe it is Spirit-directed. That being said, it brings into question the belief we are putting aside.
Does it mean that what we put aside was NOT Spirit-directed? Or does it mean there is some latitude in this
matter of ones own beliefs? Is it really an issue if we differ in the non-essentials?

We can't even all agree on what the essentials are. Much less the non-essentials.

/ cc: @Augustin56

The Queen Mary aint turned around on a dime. Our lives have momentum.
It is the Devil who has the power of death. For it to register that it is not God who is the killer can take some theological adjustment....even scrapping

 

[Spyder]

Okay now that I got those thoughts in post #245 off my chest I can respond to
this quoted treasure trove above of a delicious paragraph. (yummy)

To learn and unlearn and relearn.

Once we are full of the church learning that told us what we believe, SOME of us encounter moments
when we have uneasy thoughts about what were given as "truth". Suddenly the truthfulness is in question.
Since we were TAUGHT that unbelievers end up in eternal conscious torment, we need to proceed with caution.
We don't want to lose our Get-Out-of-Hell-Free card! What to do, what to do... ???

So we look into it. And perhaps we find other believers that share our concerns. This is a great relief.
We collect the appropriate apologetics (chapter and verse) and are ready to make a stand.
Which will most likely be met with disapproval by those on the other side of the issue.

I love that you call this process "self honesty". Being honest with oneself.
But I believe it is Spirit-directed. That being said, it brings into question the belief we are putting aside.
Does it mean that what we put aside was NOT Spirit-directed? Or does it mean there is some latitude in this
matter of ones own beliefs? Is it really an issue if we differ in the non-essentials?

We can't even all agree on what the essentials are. Much less the non-essentials.

/ cc: @Augustin56

For years, I joined in with the beliefs being presented in church. I am guilty of not validating those doctrines as I did not think I needed to. After all, EVERYONE believed it, right?

Then came a time when I felt like I needed to know what scripture really says. That entails numerous areas of learning, from the history of the bible, the early church fathers, the culture of the people of Israel, and how to use hermeneutics to find truth. Lastly, after I abused myself with doing this all on my human mind; I realized that I needed Yahweh to show me what to believe. It is amazing to me that He heard my request - but not all truth was given me. I still have to dwell with scriptures and my library that cover the topics I just mentioned. Finally, I found myself unacceptable to those who just "believe the doctrines as members of a church." I see that as giving up one's brain in order to have friends in church.

I also think that the insults that those who stand apart from "accepted doctrine" are derived from those who also don't want to open the hearts and minds to let God interpret for them. I say that knowing that God sometimes make me work for it, and sometimes He sends me someone to expose me to another understand so that I can await the conviction that Yahweh give me regarding His truth.

We can "agree on essentials" because it requires that everyone seek God and His truth - after we have been indoctrinated for years by Pastor and Sunday School teachers. It is much easier to insult and deny - failing to show the love that God requires between the brethren. I imagine by now I have been widely blocked from people seeing what I post, but that is up to them and not me. I appreciate the posts that I read. It is not a bad thing to read what people say - I may develop better vision as a result.

 

[St. SteVen]

Awesome post, thanks!

For years, I joined in with the beliefs being presented in church. I am guilty of not validating those doctrines as I did not think I needed to. After all, EVERYONE believed it, right?

BINGO!

Then came a time when I felt like I needed to know what scripture really says. That entails numerous areas of learning, from the history of the bible, the early church fathers, the culture of the people of Israel, and how to use hermeneutics to find truth. Lastly, after I abused myself with doing this all on my human mind; I realized that I needed Yahweh to show me what to believe. It is amazing to me that He heard my request - but not all truth was given me. I still have to dwell with scriptures and my library that cover the topics I just mentioned. Finally, I found myself unacceptable to those who just "believe the doctrines as members of a church." I see that as giving up one's brain in order to have friends in church.

Do you remember what the pivotal issue was for you?
It was ECT for me. (hell)

I also think that the insults that those who stand apart from "accepted doctrine" are derived from those who also don't want to open the hearts and minds to let God interpret for them. I say that knowing that God sometimes make me work for it, and sometimes He sends me someone to expose me to another understand so that I can await the conviction that Yahweh give me regarding His truth.

Agree.

We can "agree on essentials" because it requires that everyone seek God and His truth - after we have been indoctrinated for years by Pastor and Sunday School teachers. It is much easier to insult and deny - failing to show the love that God requires between the brethren. I imagine by now I have been widely blocked from people seeing what I post, but that is up to them and not me. I appreciate the posts that I read. It is not a bad thing to read what people say - I may develop better vision as a result.

Exactly.
I really appreciate you.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

your full of your self the church i started in which is the Church i now pastor. did not indoctrinate me.. they taught me how to study to show myself approved rightly dividing the truth.
you on the other hand come off sounding as if your in the been there done that got it all together crowd . the pastor preached the truth

Rubbish.
What's your position on hell, Pastor?

I have questions. Do you have answers?
Or are questions not allowed at your church?
(brainwashing in progress - for shame)

/

 

[ElieG12]

Rubbish.
What's your position on hell, Pastor?

I have questions. Do you have answers?
Or are questions not allowed at your church?
(brainwashing in progress - for shame)

Now you are talking

If an organization, group, community, or even individual, claims to be led by Jesus and guided by holy spirit, etc... then that individual or group should first demonstrate that their doctrine is truly biblical.

This is not achieved by taking a text from the Bible and giving it a personal interpretation that clearly contradicts the obvious teaching of many other biblical passages, because supposedly the Bible cannot teach contradictions from the point of view of a Christian.

There are evidently many ways to demonstrate whether a community is truly the people of God, as Israel once was, and once the Christian congregation of the first century. One thing is certain: an organized people of God must be a tangible reality in the last days, now.

 

[St. SteVen]

Now you are talking

Thanks.

... supposedly the Bible cannot teach contradictions from the point of view of a Christian.

Yes, SUPPOSEDLY.
And I can understand why, but...
That doesn't work out so well. And there is no consensus on the conclusions reached on said contradictions.

Example: Discussions on eternal security.
OSAS versus Eternal Insecurity (salvation by works).

Evident bias on my part. - LOL

/

 

[ElieG12]

Thanks.

Yes, SUPPOSEDLY.
And I can understand why, but...
That doesn't work out so well. And there is no consensus on the conclusions reached on said contradictions.

Example: Discussions on eternal security.
OSAS versus Eternal Insecurity (salvation by works).

Evident bias on my part. - LOL

There can't be "consensus" to determine what is the truth. The truth is not a conclussion derived to in a human convention, like voting for the president.

You already know I am a JW. We do not meet to determine the truth; We receive it from a group of experienced brothers who have shown for many years that they are faithful in conduct and in their service to God.

The difference is that when we come together and study what they teach us, we learn the biblical reasons behind the teaching and realize that they are based on Scripture. Then we go to the public and put them through the fire, demonstrating to others that the way we understand the Bible is coherent... and thus we demonstrate at the same time that we enjoy the blessing of Jesus in our organized people.

Who else can do that?

Matt. 28:19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

 

[St. SteVen]

You already know I am a JW.

Thanks for reminding me. I had indeed forgotten.
At my age I can't remember what color socks I had for breakfast.

I don't discount JWs generally.

No offense, but in terms of "brainwashing", Catholics and JWs are the worst.
The thinking is done by someone else. your job is to accept it wholesale. Correct?

I'm guessing your are allowed no freedom whatsoever to discern for yourself.

/

 

[Phil .]

your full of your self the church i started in which is the Church i now pastor. did not indoctrinate me.. they taught me how to study to show myself approved rightly dividing the truth.
you on the other hand come off sounding as if your in the been there done that got it all together crowd . the pastor preached the truth

Truth is indivisible.

 

[ElieG12]

... No offense, but in terms of "brainwashing", Catholics and JWs are the worst...

None taken ... but that is prejudice, evidently.

If you are prejudiced against the only ones who will be able to reason with you based on deep knowledge of the Scriptures, what do you have left?

Are you defending your "no one has the truth" stance without listening to what we have to tell you?

 

[O'Darby]

The larger issue is, how do we avoid brainwashing ourselves? We can be brainwashed by authority figures and organizations, or we can go our own way and brainwash ourselves while congratulating ourselves that by God no one is going to brainwash us. I see little difference. This is why I insist my convictions are no more than that and must remain flexible until my last breath. It's why I believe communion, where God is allowed to speak, is a more likely avenue to Truth than active pursuit of it.

Knowledge, Certainty, Conviction and Doubt - Epistemology in Christianity

How epistemology relates to Christian belief.

www.christianityboard.com

The Role of Communion in My Christian Practice

Entering into a "cloud of unknowing" can deepen communion with God.

www.christianityboard.com