Explanation of the warning in Heb.6:1-8

[Stranger]

I.) Some background

The book of Hebrews is definitely addressed to Christians. (Heb.3:1) " Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling..." (Heb. 6:4) ...and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost." (Heb. 10:19) "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter..."

Not only is the book of Hebrews addressed to Christians, these Christians are Jewish Christians. Thus the title of the book, Hebrews. The writer of the book of Hebrews, who I firmly believe is Paul, and therefore from here on out will refer to the writer as Paul, assumes that those he is writing to have a working and experiential knowledge of the Mosaic Law and the sacrificial system which was centered on the Temple in Jerusalem. And when the letter of Hebrews was written, the Temple was still standing. (Heb.10:11) " And every priest standeth daily ministering...."

It is important to remember that the vast majority of the first Christians were Jewish. And of these, many would be priests under the Mosaic Law. (Acts 6:7) "And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith."

Now, though these many Jews, of whom were many priests, were truly saved, they didn't immediately abandon the Mosaic Law. And many of these priests would later give Paul trouble for not keeping the law. (Acts 15:5) But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, that it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."

The Pharisees who were believers were saying this because through Paul's preaching many Gentiles were coming into the Church. And Paul was not putting them under the Mosaic Law. He was not requiring them to keep the law and be circumcised. James, who was the leader of the church in Jerusalem, agreed with Paul that these Gentile converts were not to be placed under the Law of Moses. (Acts 15:19) "Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God." (Acts 15:24) "Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, ye must be circumcised and keep the law; to whom we gave no such commandment."

But, though James, and the many Jews and priests who were Christians in the Jerusalem church, did not put the Gentiles under law, He and the other Jews still continued under the Law. The still observed the Temple worship through the priests and sacrifices. And James would later be a stumbling block to Paul in tempting him to observe the Law.

Paul later would stop again at Jerusalem during his missionary journey's. He went to the church there and to James and told him what great things God was doing among the Gentiles. But, though James and the other Jews rejoiced in this, they wanted to show Paul the importance of the Jews remaining under the Law. ( Acts 21:20) "And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest , brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:"

James and the believing Jews were still zealous of keeping the Law. And James wanted Paul to show all Jews that he also was zealous for the law, as it had been reported that Paul taught contrary to the Law. There were some men that had taken a vow under the Law. James wanted Paul to, (Acts 21:21-24)" ...take and purify thyself with them...and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law."

(continued)

Stranger

 

[Heb 13:8]

Hebrews 6:4-6
​

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 and who have fallen away; it is impossible, I say, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify the Son of God afresh to themselves and put Him to an open shame.

This is often used to show that salvation can be lost, but that reflects a poor understanding of the text.

First of all the context begins back in chapter five. I will post the entire discussion from its beginning in chapter five down to verse 6 of chapter six.

About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil. Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits. For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. (Heb 5:11-6:6)

The context, which begins in chapter five and verse eleven, pertains not to unholy living or ungodliness. The complaint is that they are spiritually immature. The writer of Hebrews tells them that they are dull of hearing, are spiritually immature needing milk and are not practiced in discernment. He then exhorts them to move on and leave the elementary or rudimentary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity.

So the problem here is not that they are unfaithful or on verge of apostasy, as this passage is often used to allege. It is a complaint pertaining to their immature and spiritually stagnate condition. The phrase “fall away” in verse six is not the word in Greek that is commonly used for those who commit apostasy or reject the Lord. That would not fit the context. The word in Greek is parapiptos and means to fall aside. It pictures someone like the runner of a race who falls to the side due to fatigue and who is not as strong as the other athletes. He is weaker and untrained. This is the picture being painted by the author of Hebrews of his general readership.

“It is impossible to renew them unto repentance…” simply means that it is impossible to go back to the beginning. It is impossible to get resaved and start all over again. His point was if they fall to the side and cease growing, there is no way to return to the beginning of their salvation and cover the same elementary doctrines over and over again without putting Christ to public shame again. The only way to get resaved is for Jesus to come back and die all over again. The notion of getting resaved is just not a biblical concept and is not the object of this passage.

Not only do we have these verses, we also have the parable of the seeds, in which initial life has sprung up in stony soil, and also amongst the thorns, and yet perished.

Those on stony ground are not believers and never were. They hear the word but do not benefit from it. Their hearts are never changed. They hear it, assent to it and have knowledge of the truth, but they do not accept the truth. There is no faith for the seed to take root sin and it withers away and dies at the first sign of persecution.

The seed sown among the thorns is choked out. It never takes root because the cares of the world and the deceitful allure of the world destroys the seed before it has a chance to take root and produce fruit. To argue that these verses provide examples of faith that has been allowed to die, simply does not jive with the natural, plain sense of the text.

 

[Stranger]

(continued from post #1)

Regrettably Paul did as James asked and placed himself under the Law. The result was chaos. That which was sought after, to show the Jews that Paul did not teach contrary to the Law, was not obtained. Instead Paul had to be rescued from a mob of Law abiding zealots. Instead of pacifying these believing Jews, it enraged them. And it is something Paul should never have done. I believe Paul acknowledged this before the Sanhedrin when he was brought before them. (Acts 23:1) "...Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day."

The point I am making here is this. The believing Jews were still observing the Mosaic Law. And if you as a Jew were a Christian and one of the few who wanted to get away from the law, you could expect the same response that Paul received from the rest of the Jews. As a result, many believing Jews who had tried to get away from the Law were turning back to the law. They were not denying Christ. But as Christian Jews they wanted to go back under the Law to avoid persecution. And it is for this reason that Paul wrote Hebrews. He is going to show the superiority of Jesus Christ over every aspect of the Law.

Christ is the greater revelation than the Old Testament prophets. (Heb.1:1-2)
Christ is greater than the angels who played a large roll in the giving of the Law. (Heb.1:4-218)
Christ is greater than Moses to whom God gave the Law. (Heb. 3:1-4:16)
Christ's priesthood is greater than the Levitical and Aaronic priesthood under the Law. (Heb.5:1-10:18)
The New Covenant which is based on Jesus Christ is greater than the Old or Mosaic Covenant which is the Law. (Heb.8:1-10:18)
Christ's one sacrifice is greater than the many animal sacrifices under the Law. (Heb.9:11-10:39)
The law of Christ, which is after the power of an endless life, is greater than the law of Moses which is after the power of a carnal commandment producing death. (Heb.7:11-28)

So because Christ is greater than the Mosaic Law, Paul is encouraging these believers not to go back to it. Go on to what God has for you in the future. Don't go back to what God has already finished with. And, Paul has also given these Jewish believers several warnings which will occur if they choose to go back under the Law. And (Heb.6:1-8) is one of those.

Now, in exhorting these Jewish believers to not go back but to go on, Paul uses the history of Israel's experience in coming out of Egypt, going through the wilderness, all the while heading toward the promised land. This journey of Israel is their journey into spiritual maturity; into perfection; into sonship. And their journey and experiences will parallel the Christian believers experience in this life whose goal is the same. (1Cor.10:1-6) "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea: And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink; for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things,as they also lusted."

Stranger

(continued)

 

[Stranger]

(continued from post #3)

Before going farther I wanted to say, there are many commentaries I have used over the years concerning this subject. One I have which has been very helpful is "Failed Yet Forgiven, by Keith Lamb, "Maranatha Bible Press and Distributors" 1993. This book deals with the subject 'security of the believer'. I don't know if it is still in print, but if it is, it is very good.

To go on: That Israel's journey into spiritual maturity could so perfectly parallel the Christian believers journey, is proof that the Bible could only be written by God. Only God can so order events upon a nation to make that nation experience what the believer in Christ would one day experience. So, Israel's experience, Tabernacle, Law, and Temple, all had a heavenly origin. But these things were not the end of what God was doing. They were a means to the end.

(Heb.8:4-5) "...seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed thee in the mount."

(Heb. 10:1) " For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things...."


II.) Some parallels which will be addressed and are helpful to remember

a.) Egypt-----------------The world

b.) Passover--------------Christ the Lamb and initial salvation (1Cor.5:7)

c.) Red Sea----------------Water Baptism (1Cor.10:2)

d.) Wilderness-------------Carnal walk of believer, immaturity, servanthood,

e.) Rock in the wilderness--------------Christ (1Cor. 10:4)

f.) Jordon River-------------Baptized into Christ's death and resurrection by the Spirit, baptized to walk in newness of life, Feast of First Fruits, (Rom.6:3-4), (Eph. 2:6), (1Cor.15:20-23), (Lev.23:10)

g.) Canaan-------------Spiritual walk of the believer, maturity, sonship, new wine in new wineskin, the rest of God, the promised land

Stranger

(continued)

 

[Stranger]

(continued from post #4)

It cannot be emphasized enough that Paul is not presenting any of the great doctrines of the Christian faith in his letter to the Hebrews. Doctrines such as justification sanctification, imputation, glorification, etc. Nor does Paul say anything about the "mystery of the Church" which is the Body of Christ composed of both Jew and Gentile who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit that raised Christ from the dead. These doctrines were revealed to Paul by the resurrected Christ. They form his gospel which he received by revelation from the risen Christ.

(Gal.1:11-12) " But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. "

It is for this reason that many believe that Hebrews could not have been written by Paul. Because the writer of Hebrews states that he received his doctrine from Christ through the disciples. (Heb. 2:3) " How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; " But this is easily explained. The salvation Christ first spoke of and gave to the disciples was not the same gospel that He revealed to Paul after the resurrection. Note (Rom.15:8) "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the Fathers."

Jesus Christ came first to Israel offering the kingdom and the salvation that accompanied it. This was that kingdom promised in the Old Testament to the Fathers. Christ came preaching that gospel of the kingdom to confirm those promises. This was a totally different message and gospel than the gospel of grace that Paul was given to preach. Therefore, Paul, as every other Jew, received confirmation of the kingdom promises and salvation through Christ and then through the disciples to whom it was given as he said in (Heb.2:3). But, that was not the gospel revealed to Paul by Jesus Christ. Thus, (Heb. 2:3) does not prove Paul was not the author of the book of Hebrews.

So, in (Heb.1:1) when Paul says, "God...spake in times past unto the fathers by the prophets....", he is speaking of the Law and the kingdom promises described in the Old Testament. Then in (Heb.1:2) when Paul says, "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,....", he is speaking of Christ coming to Israel as the Messiah and confirming all that the Old Testament prophets spoke of as we saw in (Rom.15:8). Coupled with that preaching to the circumcision by Christ, were many miracles and signs and wonders. God was giving evidence that this was from Him.

(Heb.2:4) " God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will."

Stranger''

(continued)

 

[Stranger]

(continued from post #5)

So, Paul has made the point that just as there was judgement for disobedience to the Law, so is there judgement for neglecting the salvation Christ came preaching. And concerning this same Law and the salvation Christ preached, Paul contrasts Moses and Christ. (Heb.3:5-6) "And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant....But Christ as a son over his own house;...."

Moses was a servant. Jesus Christ was a son. Israel under the Law was a servant. An obedient Israel receiving Christ and his salvation would move from servanthood to sonship. Remember the parallels given earlier. Servanthood is a saved Israel in the wilderness. Cannan is the place of sonship. So, Israel moving into Cannan from the wilderness is not Israel moving from a lost state to a saved state. That occurred back in Egypt at the Passover. This is Israel moving from immaturity and servanthood to maturity and sonship. It is also called the 'Rest' of God.

Paul then goes on in (Heb.3:7-19) to show how Israel failed at one time to enter into this 'Rest'. This occurred at Kadesh-barnea. See (Num.13-14) God had Israel poised to enter Cannan. But Israel was stricken with an evil heart of unbelief. Through fear of her enemies and war in Cannan, Israel fell into unbelief. Israel as a believing nation failed to believe God could keep her in Cannan.

This of course displeased God and grieved Him. (Heb. 3:10) "Wherefore I was grieved with that generation...." And what did God do to this erring people? Did He send these people back to Egypt? Did He send them back to a lost state and disown them? No, He didn't. But He did refuse to let them enter into His Rest. (Heb.3:11) So I sware in my wrath,They shall not enter into my rest."

Stranger

(continued)

 

[Stranger]

(continued from #6)


III.) The Rest


God has been giving us, through the historical movements of the saved nation of Israel, a picture of the journey from immaturity to maturity. From servanthood to sonship. From wilderness wandering to rest. And because of unbelief Israel was not allowed to enter God's rest. (Heb.3:18-19) "And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? so we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief."

Paul later applies this lesson to his present day Jews who had believed on Christ but were going back to the Mosaic Law. He makes it clear that those who have believed on Christ have entered into that rest. (Heb. 4:3) "For we which have believed do enter into rest...." But he also gave a warning to these believers. (Heb. 4:1) "Let us therefore fear, lest a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it."

So, though the believer has entered the rest of God because of his faith, he can just as easily fall short of experiencing that rest due to unbelief. Paul uses Israel in the land as an example. Joshua brought Israel into the land which represented the rest of God but the Israelites could still fall into unbelief. Paul quotes David in (Ps.95:7-8) and says in (Heb.4:7-8) " Again, he limiteth a certain day saying in David, Today, after so long a time; as it is said Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day." Note here that the name Jesus refers to Joshua.

David is some 500 years after Joshua. Yet he says 'Today'. This means that David recognized that even though Israel entered into that land of rest, there were many in his day who were not experiencing that rest. They were in the place but failed in the experience. And though Israel's entrance into the land represented the rest of God, it itself was not the rest of God. That rest of God was and is to be to every believer to experience. (Heb.4:9-10) "There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. "

Note here that it is God's rest, not the believers rest, that the believer enters into. The believer ceases from his own works and enters into the finished work of God. God's rest.

Stranger

(continued)

 

[ScottA]

Very good!

 

[Eastgate]

I.) Some background

The book of Hebrews is definitely addressed to Christians. (Heb.3:1) " Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling..." (Heb. 6:4) ...and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost." (Heb. 10:19) "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter..."

Not only is the book of Hebrews addressed to Christians, these Christians are Jewish Christians. Thus the title of the book, Hebrews. The writer of the book of Hebrews, who I firmly believe is Paul, and therefore from here on out will refer to the writer as Paul, assumes that those he is writing to have a working and experiential knowledge of the Mosaic Law and the sacrificial system which was centered on the Temple in Jerusalem. And when the letter of Hebrews was written, the Temple was still standing. (Heb.10:11) " And every priest standeth daily ministering...."

The "Hebrews" are all the children of Abraham, of all the tribes of both the houses of Israel and the house of Judah. Before the scattering of both houses; the house of Israel by the Assyrians, and the house of Judah by the Babylonians, the people called themselves "Israelites". However, after the scattering they were know as "Hebrews". The word "Hebrew" means "from the other side of the river". Through the years the Euphrates river had become the border and dividing line between God's people, the Israelites and Babylon.

Do you know that there are 2 "types" of Jews referenced in the Bible (NT)? Those that are of the tribe of Judah and those that are citizens of Judea. One does not constitute the other. The sons of Cain (Kenites) were claiming to be Jews throughout the NT (they could only qualify for that name in the citizenship sense) and were the ones seeking to put Christ to death. It is paramount to understand the difference. Just pointing this is out as you seem to envelope early Christians as Jewish Christians. What of the ten northen tribes scattered (the dispersed)? Paul was also addressing these.

This error is seen all too often - where people seem to forget the tribes scattered and focus soley on the Jews (meaning those of the tribe of Judea).

 

[Stranger]

(continued from #7)

IV) The Warning

Paul said all he did about the 'Rest of God' to now let the Hebrew believers know they were failing in moving into that Rest. (Heb. 5:12) "For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God;..." So he encourages them to go on. (Heb. 6:1-2) "...Let us go on unto perfection...." Perfection here is maturity not sinlessness.

But then the warning, (Heb. 6:3) "And this will we do, if God permit." What does that mean? It means God may not permit it. In other words, God may not permit the believer who has stalled in his walk towards the Rest of God to come into that Rest. Remember here, the Rest of God is not heaven. But it is an important aspect of our salvation. These Hebrew believers had stopped and turned back to the Mosaic System which thy used to be part of. Today we as believers can turn back to the world which we were part of and called out of. This doesn't have to mean we are involved in gross sins, though it can. It can mean we just get involved in the world so much that our attention to Christ and spiritual things has been choked. We have stalled. We need to go on.

Paul says God may not permit it. Why? (Heb. 6:4-6) "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

Remember what was said in post #6 concerning the example of Israel in the wilderness failing to enter the Rest of God. They were filled with unbelief or a lack of faith to go on. They had seen and experienced all these things that (Heb. 6:4-6) states. See (Deut. 1:26-32). Yet they faltered, they fell away. And God was displeased with them. And they then tried to repent, but God would not allow it. See (Deut. 1:41-42). God would not allow them to repent. Did they go to hell? No. They died in the wilderness. God didn't send them back to Egypt, they simply died in the wilderness.

Understand also, that the same was true of Moses. During the wilderness journey the Hebrews were needing water. Moses was frustrated at their unbelief. God told Moses to speak to the Rock and water would come forth. But Moses is in his anger struck the Rock and angered God. And because of this Moses was not allowed to go into the promised land. (Num. 20:10-12) And Moses tried to repent and asked God to let him go over. (Deut. 3:23-27) But God would not. Did Moses go to hell? No. But he was not permitted repentance and was not allowed to go into the Rest of God, the promised land.

Therefore my point here is this. (Heb. 6:4-6) speaks to a loss here of that aspect of ones salvation called the Rest of God. It is not a loss of eternal life. That has been secured in our initial faith in Christ like the Hebrews were secured in Egypt at the Passover. Which means many believers, just like Moses, will not experience that Rest till eternity. But we will experience it. And the believer who may find themselves in this situation can know that God is with them in the wilderness just as He would be in the Rest. And also, Paul said 'God may not permit it'. Which means He just might.

Stranger

 

[FHII]

Instead Paul had to be rescued from a mob of Law abiding zealots. Instead of pacifying these believing Jews, it enraged them.

I don't mean to make a big deal out of this, because it is a small part of a much greater overall point, and really doesn't change anything. But the text (Acts 21:27-31) doesn't indicate believing Jews caused the uproar. These were Jews from Asia (Turkey). They caused an uproar and all of Jerusalem was upset over it. But nowhere does it say believing Jews were siding with the Zealots (though I think it was a strong possibility).

Still, it doesn't take away from the point that the believing Jews were still zealous for the law.

It's rare that such a long multi-part post stays interesting, but you did a great job! I can't say I agree with your overall point yet. I will have to go back and read Hebrews.

Overall i appreciate your effort. It certainly will be worth rereading Hebrews with these points in mind.

 

[Stranger]

I don't mean to make a big deal out of this, because it is a small part of a much greater overall point, and really doesn't change anything. But the text (Acts 21:27-31) doesn't indicate believing Jews caused the uproar. These were Jews from Asia (Turkey). They caused an uproar and all of Jerusalem was upset over it. But nowhere does it say believing Jews were siding with the Zealots (though I think it was a strong possibility).

Still, it doesn't take away from the point that the believing Jews were still zealous for the law.

It's rare that such a long multi-part post stays interesting, but you did a great job! I can't say I agree with your overall point yet. I will have to go back and read Hebrews.

Overall i appreciate your effort. It certainly will be worth rereading Hebrews with these points in mind.

I appreciate your encouraging comments.

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

I.) Some background

The book of Hebrews is definitely addressed to Christians. (Heb.3:1) " Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling..." (Heb. 6:4) ...and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost." (Heb. 10:19) "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter..."

Not only is the book of Hebrews addressed to Christians, these Christians are Jewish Christians. Thus the title of the book, Hebrews. The writer of the book of Hebrews, who I firmly believe is Paul, and therefore from here on out will refer to the writer as Paul, assumes that those he is writing to have a working and experiential knowledge of the Mosaic Law and the sacrificial system which was centered on the Temple in Jerusalem. And when the letter of Hebrews was written, the Temple was still standing. (Heb.10:11) " And every priest standeth daily ministering...."

It is important to remember that the vast majority of the first Christians were Jewish. And of these, many would be priests under the Mosaic Law. (Acts 6:7) "And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith."

Now, though these many Jews, of whom were many priests, were truly saved, they didn't immediately abandon the Mosaic Law. And many of these priests would later give Paul trouble for not keeping the law. (Acts 15:5) But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, that it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."

The Pharisees who were believers were saying this because through Paul's preaching many Gentiles were coming into the Church. And Paul was not putting them under the Mosaic Law. He was not requiring them to keep the law and be circumcised. James, who was the leader of the church in Jerusalem, agreed with Paul that these Gentile converts were not to be placed under the Law of Moses. (Acts 15:19) "Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God." (Acts 15:24) "Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, ye must be circumcised and keep the law; to whom we gave no such commandment."

But, though James, and the many Jews and priests who were Christians in the Jerusalem church, did not put the Gentiles under law, He and the other Jews still continued under the Law. The still observed the Temple worship through the priests and sacrifices. And James would later be a stumbling block to Paul in tempting him to observe the Law.

Paul later would stop again at Jerusalem during his missionary journey's. He went to the church there and to James and told him what great things God was doing among the Gentiles. But, though James and the other Jews rejoiced in this, they wanted to show Paul the importance of the Jews remaining under the Law. ( Acts 21:20) "And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest , brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:"

James and the believing Jews were still zealous of keeping the Law. And James wanted Paul to show all Jews that he also was zealous for the law, as it had been reported that Paul taught contrary to the Law. There were some men that had taken a vow under the Law. James wanted Paul to, (Acts 21:21-24)" ...take and purify thyself with them...and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law."

(continued)

Stranger

Hi Stranger,
This is my first response:


LOL
I can't get the Reader's Digest version??
Will read it because I'd like to understand your POV better.
Not now...

Hope this will allow me to get alerts...

 

[GodsGrace]

The "Hebrews" are all the children of Abraham, of all the tribes of both the houses of Israel and the house of Judah. Before the scattering of both houses; the house of Israel by the Assyrians, and the house of Judah by the Babylonians, the people called themselves "Israelites". However, after the scattering they were know as "Hebrews". The word "Hebrew" means "from the other side of the river". Through the years the Euphrates river had become the border and dividing line between God's people, the Israelites and Babylon.

Do you know that there are 2 "types" of Jews referenced in the Bible (NT)? Those that are of the tribe of Judah and those that are citizens of Judea. One does not constitute the other. The sons of Cain (Kenites) were claiming to be Jews throughout the NT (they could only qualify for that name in the citizenship sense) and were the ones seeking to put Christ to death. It is paramount to understand the difference. Just pointing this is out as you seem to envelope early Christians as Jewish Christians. What of the ten northen tribes scattered (the dispersed)? Paul was also addressing these.

This error is seen all too often - where people seem to forget the tribes scattered and focus soley on the Jews (meaning those of the tribe of Judea).

Doesn't Hebrew come from the place of Hebron where Abraham lived?
I believe Hebrews was the FIRST name for the people of Israel, not the last. They were called Hebrew because Abraham lived in Hebron.
The last name was Jews.

Comments please from you and Stranger.

 

[soul man]

Enjoyed what I read, but there is alot of reading.
Can you sum up what you are saying in your text in a quick version, I'm interested in seeing what point you are making, thanks.

 

[FHII]

Enjoyed what I read, but there is alot of reading.
Can you sum up what you are saying in your text in a quick version, I'm interested in seeing what point you are making, thanks.

Soul Man and @GodsGrace:

Hopefully Stranger won't mind me answering. Stranger gave a lot of background info which I found facinating and pertinent to his point. If you want a summary of his point, read the very last paragraph of his last installment (post #10). Here it is for your easy reading:

Therefore my point here is this. (Heb. 6:4-6) speaks to a loss here of that aspect of ones salvation called the Rest of God. It is not a loss of eternal life. That has been secured in our initial faith in Christ like the Hebrews were secured in Egypt at the Passover. Which means many believers, just like Moses, will not experience that Rest till eternity. But we will experience it. And the believer who may find themselves in this situation can know that God is with them in the wilderness just as He would be in the Rest. And also, Paul said 'God may not permit it'. Which means He just might.

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, to all. the believing Jews had this one problem as well as the apostle Paul. spirit vs flesh. the spirit want to serve the Lord Jesus, but the flesh was weak for the Law. and at anything new there was always apprehension, which come from a lack of knowledge. Paul acknowledge this in the book of Romans. but laid the ground work in how to deal with it. but Paul knew that a covenant change had occurred. even Peter was in the same boat, backsliding at times. but Paul stood his ground and made it clear to all of the apostles". even to this day some Christian still hold on to Moses Law. but Paul made the distinction, Romans 9:7 "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed".

but from reading the bible, the remnant always know of the Spiritual Law, and followed it. as the apostle Paul said there is no excuse. Romans 8:1-5 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace".

PCY

 

[soul man]

Soul Man and @GodsGrace:

Hopefully Stranger won't mind me answering. Stranger gave a lot of background info which I found facinating and pertinent to his point. If you want a summary of his point, read the very last paragraph of his last installment (post #10). Here it is for your easy reading:

Ok got it, thought that was where he may be heading, good thoughts and sound writing.

 

[Stranger]

Hi Stranger,
This is my first response:


LOL
I can't get the Reader's Digest version??
Will read it because I'd like to understand your POV better.
Not now...

Hope this will allow me to get alerts...

Believe me, that is the abbreviated version. Much more can and probably needs to be said but I wanted to be as brief as possible. FHI was correct as to the summary on the last page. But I would encourage you to read it all.

I understand.

I don't know what you mean by allowing to get alerts.

Stranger

 

[DPMartin]

stranger on your statement that seems to mean that Moses repented of the event with the water for the reason to go to the promised land would be incorrect.



Deu 3:23 And I besought the LORD at that time, saying, 24 O Lord GOD, thou hast begun to shew thy servant thy greatness, and thy mighty hand: for what God is there in heaven or in earth, that can do according to thy works, and according to thy might? 25 I pray thee, let me go over, and see the good land that is beyond Jordan, that goodly mountain, and Lebanon. 26 But the LORD was wroth with me for your sakes, and would not hear me: and the LORD said unto me, Let it suffice thee; speak no more unto me of this matter. 27 Get thee up into the top of Pisgah, and lift up thine eyes westward, and northward, and southward, and eastward, and behold it with thine eyes: for thou shalt not go over this Jordan.


though we could be sure Moses was repentant after realizing his error when he made it, and yes it is the excuse used for Moses not going to the promised land. but repentance denied? no not seeing it. request denied yes. Moses was 120 years old when his work was over after dealing with the Almighty and the Hebrews at the time for 40 years. if you can't put two and two together here, oh well.

plus the Jews always looked to Moses and blamed Moses when things weren't to their liking but if Joshua takes then in its the Lord their God they have to deal with and who is making thing as they are not Moses not Joshua.