This is where the english language has caused many a false belief. The word 'all' here is not the same word as 'all' as in all inclusive. This words, in the Greek, means any snd every KIND of truth. Not just laws, but principles; it teaches how you are to trreat othrrs and yourself, it gives marriage counseling, ect. It will not tell you what 5+56 equals or what the answers to your chemistry exam will be, however, it does give basic principles from all kinds of truths, both spiritual and scientific.
Scripture with Scripture
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Hello and welcom again to the forum!
I believe I many have miscommunicated a few things in my questions... completely on me. Let me try to re-phrase:
2.) Do our beliefs square with what God teached in His Word? Have we searched diligently enough to be confident of the correctness before Him?
3.) When a person says they are a Christian, what do the Scriptures teach a Christian must hold to in order for his claim to be valid? (Ex. Christnis the 2nd person of the trinity, God incarnate)
Really glad to have you here with us, hope to have meaningful and friendly discussions!
bbyrd009
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then state an Absolute Truth--other than "God"--and let's see!
"Absolute truth is something that is true at all times and in all places. It is something that is always true no matter what the circumstances. It is a fact that cannot be changed. For example, there are no round squares."
so you say, but imo "facts" are really just expressions from a point of view, and i'm pretty sure i could even postulate scenarios where the "facts" led to many unnecessary deaths that the "opinions" of the locals would have prevented, had they been heeded
um, yes, i agree, ya ya, so let's bring up an example of one of these "facts" and go from there i guess
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Everyone of us throws "absolute truth" right out the window when a child asks us what we think of their artwork...…... Or, does a husband always tell the truth when his wife asks how he likes her new hair or dress?
bbyrd009
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sure, quite a few, depending upon which pov you assume in reading Scripture. Ones that begin "Now go..." etc
OzSpen
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Teaching right from wrong is the church's responsibility (and parents). Calling sin by its right name is paramount. Instructing members to learn how best to study God's word, and to share their faith with others, vital. But to begin to take upon ourselves the role of changing people's hearts and minds, is stepping over the line. Encouraging people to obey God is one thing...encouraging people to obey us is another matter entirely, and is a sure way to establishing a cult.
"The first step of apostasy is to set up a creed, telling us what we shall believe.
The second is, to make that creed a test of fellowship.
The third is to try members by that creed.
The forth to denounce as heretics those who do not believe that creed.
And fifth, to commence persecution against such." J. N Loughborough
Matthew 13:24 ¶ Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Luke 9:51 ¶ And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
In our legalistic self-righteous finger-pointing attitude to those among us that we observe aren't measuring up to our own "impeccable standard" we can do every bit as much damage to people new to the faith, or those not yet fully committed, as those disciples sought to do to those unbelieving Samaritans.
"The first step of apostasy is to set up a creed, telling us what we shall believe.
The second is, to make that creed a test of fellowship.
The third is to try members by that creed.
The forth to denounce as heretics those who do not believe that creed.
And fifth, to commence persecution against such." J. N Loughborough
Matthew 13:24 ¶ Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Luke 9:51 ¶ And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
In our legalistic self-righteous finger-pointing attitude to those among us that we observe aren't measuring up to our own "impeccable standard" we can do every bit as much damage to people new to the faith, or those not yet fully committed, as those disciples sought to do to those unbelieving Samaritans.
Very good! Let the tares grow until the time of the harvest. Even in some of the best places I have been someone is always wanting to condemn or remove what they consider to be tares. [Have I ever done it? I wish I could say, nay.] The problem is that until we have overcome all the world, as Jesus overcame all the world, how qualified are we to stand in final judgment against another?
So, maybe we should stop doing it? They love Jesus and try to show it the only way they have been taught... just like the rest of us. It doesn't mean any of us have a "lock" on being correct.
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Yes, but often we don't know the difference between the facts and the opinions. This why we are living by faith rather than by knowledge. If we are growing toward God the faith is probably approaching the knowledge as Jesus leads us.
"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Heb 12:2
I love this. The grey areas are hard to know sometimes. I get afraid to pick a view on some things and be wrong. But then, I don't like being on the line. I don't know if it is a pride thing or not, but I definitely want to have the facts right more.
On things that you believe most strongly don't let yourself be swayed by anything but God. Even a trusted man of God may sometimes miss God. The, difficulty as you may have already encountered is in recognizing the Master's voice as opposed to other voices. This is why my emphasis is on starting in that the lowest room [Luke 14:8 ff] regularly with nothing in your hand or in your mind or in your heart as you surrender anew to Him. God will not lead you astray once you come to recognize His voice.
Pray that God will allow you to always be one of His sheep for His sheep know His voice [John 10:4, 10:27].
Helen
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Okay.... And that often ends up being 'teaching' right or wrong according to 'our' belief system.
"Right or Wrong " (as I see it...) is not God's goal for us at all...
..God's goal is Life...not right or wrong ( = the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil)
It is the carnal man who is hung up on what is right or wrong...God always focusses on "What is LIFE-giving.."
OK, let's step back for a minute and look at what you have stated. Since you included the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, that gives us a good basis to determine whether God's goal for our lives is simply "Life" or does that Life include a very clear idea of right and wrong.
1. Did God tell Adam that it was right for him (and Eve) to partake of every tree, fruit, vegetable, or herb in the Garden of Eden? Absolutely. Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat...
2. Did God warn Adam that it wrong --- and indeed dangerous -- for him (and Eve) to partake of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Absolutely. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
3. So was right and wrong clearly established as an essential component of "Life" in Eden at the very outset? Absolutely.
Life with God is equivalent to a life of absolute righteousness, holiness, and perfection -- morally and spiritually. And that is why believers are presently clothed with the absolute righteousness of Christ, and will eventually be perfected in Him. In the interim they are exhorted to be holy, as God is holy.
Which means that your above statement needs some serious reconsideration.
A
As for doctrine I have a belief that I am currently working through which is actually out of step with the church I belong to, and most of the people on this forum, although if I asked the question, I would get as many answers as there are members most likely. Anyway, after 3 years studying and praying, I am fairly settled on continuing to be out of step on this issue, but will not be agitating other church members to follow suit. God will lead them, and my denomination, as He sees fit. If someone asks however, or the subject comes up, I will stand by what I believe the Bible is teaching. Some who believe as I do have been disfellowshipped from other churches, more so for their behaviour and agitating that their convictions I think.
None of that however should encourage us from ceasing to seek truth in any matter. Truth does matter. Doctrine matters. But I am reluctant to accept any doctrine without a clear "thus saith the Lord" in its defense. Of course, there are some doctrines we arrive at as a result of putting two and two together...unfortunately some of our mathematical equations result in 'mystery', and we are told to believe in the mystery. Sorry, but I don't buy that. God made us a logical people with minds that are designed to make some sense of things...while there are most certainly things that we are not informed about, and that we should leave well enough alone, other things are clear and concise...these things we should cleave to come what may.
I am glad you said final judgment. God invites us to ask for wisdom...discernment between right and wrong is wisdom. Judging right judgment regarding peoples behaviour and character, thus discerning the fruits of righteousness, or not, is a Godly virtue...judging motives and the heart is a God prerogative.
As for doctrine I have a belief that I am currently working through which is actually out of step with the church I belong to, and most of the people on this forum, although if I asked the question, I would get as many answers as there are members most likely. Anyway, after 3 years studying and praying, I am fairly settled on continuing to be out of step on this issue, but will not be agitating other church members to follow suit. God will lead them, and my denomination, as He sees fit. If someone asks however, or the subject comes up, I will stand by what I believe the Bible is teaching. Some who believe as I do have been disfellowshipped from other churches, more so for their behaviour and agitating that their convictions I think.
None of that however should encourage us from ceasing to seek truth in any matter. Truth does matter. Doctrine matters. But I am reluctant to accept any doctrine without a clear "thus saith the Lord" in its defense. Of course, there are some doctrines we arrive at as a result of putting two and two together...unfortunately some of our mathematical equations result in 'mystery', and we are told to believe in the mystery. Sorry, but I don't buy that. God made us a logical people with minds that are designed to make some sense of things...while there are most certainly things that we are not informed about, and that we should leave well enough alone, other things are clear and concise...these things we should cleave to come what may.
For example, in the poll above the results reveal 10, 9, 10. I am the odd one out with the missing number, that question being the infallible word of God. While I agree that the word of God is absolutely infallible, I question our literal acceptance of every word of scripture as being 100% correct, particularly in our English translations. What I do believe is that there is sufficient truth there to find the gospel and thus find salvation through Jesus. But let us be honest...there are contradictions in scripture...some even of the gospel writers differed in there eye witness accounts of certain events in the life of Jesus. Does that make the word of God unreliable? No, on the contrary, they witnessed the same event, but obviously didn't collude in bringing testimony to the actual truth of the event taking place...police detectives love that when building a case...slightly different accounts of the same event confirms rather than denies the event itself. The Bible is not word inspired. It is thought inspired. IT was the writers that were inspired, and they wrote of the events, messages, etc in their own words, because they were not dictating what God gave them, they were describing what God showed them.
So that is where your discernment kicks in...and your study methods. You have the Bible. If you think that 'my belief system' is the basis for my doctrine, then prove me wrong from scripture.
Correct. Right or wrong is the goal as He sees it.
The carnal man is not hung up on what is right and wrong...the carnal man couldn't care less what right or wrong is, "because the carnal mind is enmity with God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be". Romans 8:7
Therefore it is the person who is spiritual who does care what right or wrong is...it is the spiritual person who is subject to God's laws, because He has the holy Spirit abiding within transforming his mind and making him obedient...which is the only way we will ever be able to stand before a holy God and not be vaporized.
I purposely said final judgment because I was thinking in line with your clarification.
Every place I have been with one exception maybe I have been out of line with the official stance. The exception was when I was a practicing Catholic and then I was also out of step but did not know it at the time. The other places I have known while I was there that there was a difference.
All of my doctrines are held firmly but not irrevocably welded in place if you understand my meaning. Periodically God gives me little glimpses of things I don't know yet but of things I shall know. When? Usually not then, but then again some of them have already been fitted into place but I am unable to describe them. This is, I believe, all happening as it is, when it is, as a result of being led by the Holy Spirit. Do you understand my meaning? Does anyone else? I would really be expecting to hear some affirmatives
It is hard!!!! Right now my biggest scripture searches deal with tongues as a personal prayer language and dreams(which dreams I believe, but I want to learn to interpret.). Tongues I go back and forth on, because I was raised a whole lot different. A lot on how JIF believes. Then in Teen Challenge I was introduced and prayed over for Baptism of the Holy Spirit when I was 22. About 12 years ago. But I only started praying in them last month again when I had a dream about it...it is sort of confusing, because I want scripture to confirm dreams, not the other way around. But it is a bit of a grey area. Especially when I can see both ways of looking at the scripture. (And please don't debate tongues and derail this thread.
) but this is where the Spirit comes in and I know I will be lead in the Truth. I have decided to pray for now in them, because it actually is helping me pray more in English. As long as I am growing in Christ, and I see good fruits in my life and others, perhaps not knowing all the facts and being the most knowledgeable in explaining why I believe scripture a certain way at least right away, is okay.
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