The Authority of Man

Paul Christensen said:

I was having a conversation with the Lord about authority and discussed about a church pastor who tried to tell me to come under his authority, and how I gave the puffed up peacock the bum's rush. A verse of Scripture came to me:
"You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men" (1 Corinthians 7:23)

What this means that we have only one master - Christ. This is not to say that we have mentors who give us sound discipleship and confirm our faith in Christ. But the attitude of these ones is "Be followers of me as I am of Christ" (1 Corinthians 11:1). The good discipler shows an example of following Christ, and instead of forcing his own authority on his disciple, he points to the only Master of believers. Jesus Christ Himself.

The bottom line is this:
"No one can serve two masters: Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other" (Matthew 6:24).
I know that Jesus referred to having money as a master instead of God, but the principle is still the same, we cannot have Christ as our Master, and be under the authority of a man or group of men as masters.

If we put ourselves under the authority of men, we are no longer under the lordship of Christ. He is no longer our Master, the man or group of men are our masters instead. It means that as soon as we place ourselves under man's authority, we are no longer following Christ. We are rejecting Christ in favour of men, putting ourselves in a very serious situation concerning whether we are really committed to Christ or not.

This shows the the corruption of the Shepherding Movement, where "disciplers" and "shepherds" exerted their own authority on believers, causing immeasurable harm.

An example was in a New Zealand small town where there was a Pentecostal church. A group of people wanted to plant their own church, and the leader went, out of respect to the pastor of the existing church to inform him that a new Pentecostal church group was being planted and that they could work together in harmony. The pastor said, "This is my town, and I'm going to make sure that your church never gets off the ground". In six months, that Pentecostal church folded, and the pastor was out of the ministry, while the new church grew and flourished. This is an example where a pastor was setting up his own authority and not following Christ. The consequence was that the Holy Spirit took his ministry away from him and probably got into heaven by the skin of his teeth. The tragedy is that by asserting his own authority, he was deceiving his people and getting in between them and Christ.

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Controlling spirits . . . domination . . . intimidation . . . manipulation . . . seduction . . . quenching of the Holy Spirit.

Jer 12:10 Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.

Paul Christensen said:

I was having a conversation with the Lord about authority and discussed about a church pastor who tried to tell me to come under his authority, and how I gave the puffed up peacock the bum's rush. A verse of Scripture came to me:
"You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men" (1 Corinthians 7:23)

What this means that we have only one master - Christ. This is not to say that we have mentors who give us sound discipleship and confirm our faith in Christ. But the attitude of these ones is "Be followers of me as I am of Christ" (1 Corinthians 11:1). The good discipler shows an example of following Christ, and instead of forcing his own authority on his disciple, he points to the only Master of believers. Jesus Christ Himself.

The bottom line is this:
"No one can serve two masters: Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other" (Matthew 6:24).
I know that Jesus referred to having money as a master instead of God, but the principle is still the same, we cannot have Christ as our Master, and be under the authority of a man or group of men as masters.

If we put ourselves under the authority of men, we are no longer under the lordship of Christ. He is no longer our Master, the man or group of men are our masters instead. It means that as soon as we place ourselves under man's authority, we are no longer following Christ. We are rejecting Christ in favour of men, putting ourselves in a very serious situation concerning whether we are really committed to Christ or not.

This shows the the corruption of the Shepherding Movement, where "disciplers" and "shepherds" exerted their own authority on believers, causing immeasurable harm.

An example was in a New Zealand small town where there was a Pentecostal church. A group of people wanted to plant their own church, and the leader went, out of respect to the pastor of the existing church to inform him that a new Pentecostal church group was being planted and that they could work together in harmony. The pastor said, "This is my town, and I'm going to make sure that your church never gets off the ground". In six months, that Pentecostal church folded, and the pastor was out of the ministry, while the new church grew and flourished. This is an example where a pastor was setting up his own authority and not following Christ. The consequence was that the Holy Spirit took his ministry away from him and probably got into heaven by the skin of his teeth. The tragedy is that by asserting his own authority, he was deceiving his people and getting in between them and Christ.

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Authority flows down from God through men. If we are under the authority of a man that God has given authority to then we are under the authority of God.

Jesus was a man and under the authority of the Father. He gave authority to the apostles (Mt 28:18-20) who then gave authority to others (2Tim 1:13-14, Ti 1:5,7,9)

Take the incident with the centurion in Mt 8:5-9
When he entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, appealing to him and saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, in terrible distress.” And he said to him, “I will come and cure him.” The centurion answered, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof; but only speak the word, and my servant will be healed. For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this,’ and the slave does it.”

The centurion’s faith in Jesus stems from his understanding of whose authority Jesus is under. He makes the point that he himself is under authority, and it is from that authority that his own authority flows so that his commands are obeyed. So he recognizes that Jesus is under the authority of God, and with that authority his commands will be obeyed (only speak the word, and my servant will be healed).
I don't know the exact hierarchy that the Roman soldier was under but ultimately his authority came from Caesar himself down the chain of command. So that when the centurion gave an order is was if Caesar was giving the order himself.

Mungo said:

Authority flows down from God through men. If we are under the authority of a man that God has given authority to then we are under the authority of God.

Jesus was a man and under the authority of the Father. He gave authority to the apostles (Mt 28:18-20) who then gave authority to others (2Tim 1:13-14, Ti 1:5,7,9)

Take the incident with the centurion in Mt 8:5-9
When he entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, appealing to him and saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, in terrible distress.” And he said to him, “I will come and cure him.” The centurion answered, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof; but only speak the word, and my servant will be healed. For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this,’ and the slave does it.”

The centurion’s faith in Jesus stems from his understanding of whose authority Jesus is under. He makes the point that he himself is under authority, and it is from that authority that his own authority flows so that his commands are obeyed. So he recognizes that Jesus is under the authority of God, and with that authority his commands will be obeyed (only speak the word, and my servant will be healed).
I don't know the exact hierarchy that the Roman soldier was under but ultimately his authority came from Caesar himself down the chain of command. So that when the centurion gave an order is was if Caesar was giving the order himself.

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The New Testament model of leadership for each ekklesia is plural eldership, and servanthood. The one person pastor/guru/chief executive model is not Scriptural.

Luk 22:24-27 There arose also a contention among them, which of them was considered to be greatest. (25) He said to them, “The kings of the nations lord it over them, and those who have authority over them are called ‘benefactors.’ (26) But not so with you. But one who is the greater among you, let him become as the younger, and one who is governing, as one who serves. (27) For who is greater, one who sits at the table, or one who serves? Isn’t it he who sits at the table? But I am among you as one who serves.

1Pe 5:1-5 Therefore I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and who will also share in the glory that will be revealed. (2) Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, exercising the oversight, not under compulsion, but voluntarily, not for dishonest gain, but willingly; (3) neither as lording it over those entrusted to you, but making yourselves examples to the flock. (4) When the chief Shepherd is revealed, you will receive the crown of glory that doesn’t fade away. (5) Likewise, you younger ones, be subject to the elder. Yes, all of you clothe yourselves with humility, to subject yourselves to one another; for “God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

3Jn 1:8-10 We therefore ought to receive such, that we may be fellow workers for the truth. (9) I wrote to the assembly, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, doesn’t accept what we say. (10) Therefore if I come, I will call attention to his deeds which he does, unjustly accusing us with wicked words. Not content with this, neither does he himself receive the brothers, and those who would, he forbids and throws out of the assembly.

Stumpmaster said:

The New Testament model of leadership for each ekklesia is plural eldership, and servanthood. The one person pastor/guru/chief executive model is not Scriptural.

Luk 22:24-27 There arose also a contention among them, which of them was considered to be greatest. (25) He said to them, “The kings of the nations lord it over them, and those who have authority over them are called ‘benefactors.’ (26) But not so with you. But one who is the greater among you, let him become as the younger, and one who is governing, as one who serves. (27) For who is greater, one who sits at the table, or one who serves? Isn’t it he who sits at the table? But I am among you as one who serves.

1Pe 5:1-5 Therefore I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and who will also share in the glory that will be revealed. (2) Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, exercising the oversight, not under compulsion, but voluntarily, not for dishonest gain, but willingly; (3) neither as lording it over those entrusted to you, but making yourselves examples to the flock. (4) When the chief Shepherd is revealed, you will receive the crown of glory that doesn’t fade away. (5) Likewise, you younger ones, be subject to the elder. Yes, all of you clothe yourselves with humility, to subject yourselves to one another; for “God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

3Jn 1:8-10 We therefore ought to receive such, that we may be fellow workers for the truth. (9) I wrote to the assembly, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, doesn’t accept what we say. (10) Therefore if I come, I will call attention to his deeds which he does, unjustly accusing us with wicked words. Not content with this, neither does he himself receive the brothers, and those who would, he forbids and throws out of the assembly.

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I don't see anything in there that says there cannot be one pastor/priest/elder leading a local church/ekklesia

Mungo said:

I don't see anything in there that says there cannot be one pastor/priest/elder leading a local church/ekklesia

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Some do prefer the papal, hierarchical structure in deference to the simple shared servanthood that Paul embraced.

Php 2:25 But I counted it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, fellow worker, fellow soldier, and your apostle and servant of my need;

Stumpmaster said:

Some do prefer the papal, hierarchical structure in deference to the simple shared servanthood that Paul embraced.

Php 2:25 But I counted it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, fellow worker, fellow soldier, and your apostle and servant of my need;

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Again I don't see anything in there that says there cannot be one pastor/priest/elder leading a local church/ekklesia.

Yes we are all fellow workers in the vineyard but that doesn't preclude a hierarchy.

Mungo said:

Yes we are all fellow workers in the vineyard but that doesn't preclude a hierarchy.

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Some chose to think a one man leadership trumps a plural eldership but Scripture doesn't preclude the latter.

Word Count in NT:
Pastors (plural) = 1.
Pastor (singular) = 0.

A meaningless statistic

Pastors have no authority only the bishops as successors of the apostles

people wanted to plant their own church

there is only one church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles
Matt 16:18 eph 2:20 Jn 10:16 Jn 20:21-23

Mungo said:

A meaningless statistic

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The elevation and idolisation of "the Pastor" is pagan and cultish. I know of numerous such ones who have gone astray, and lead congregations into error.

Only Peter and the apostles and their successors have authority from Christ to govern the holy church


Christ and His church are one, what Christ did the church continues to do, the church is an extension of Christ!
To attack the church is to attack Christ!
Acts 9:4

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!


2 Tim 3: 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

Teaching authority of the Apostles and their successors founded in the one true church by Jesus Christ!

Jesus Christ is the head of the church, (eph 5:23) the body of Christ,
(col 1:18) the new and eternal covenant, (pre-figured Jer 31:31) (Heb 8:8) new covenant replaces the Mosaic covenant, (Heb 8:13) holy mother church replaced Israel Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Christ replaces David as king, (Lk 1:32-33) Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men, (1 Tim 2:5 & Heb 12:24) but a mediator remains on earth mediating between God and His people, but Christ ascended to heaven, (acts 1) before He did He founded His church, on Peter, and the apostles, and their successors!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 2:42 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

We must be taught by Peter, the apostles, and their successors! Lk 10:16 Matt 28:19 Jn 21:17 Jn 16:13 acts 2:42

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

The obedience of faith!

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name.

Taught the one true faith revealed by Christ to His apostles! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

We are not commanded to read and make doctrine for ourselves but obey those who God puts in authority to teach the Christian Faith!

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments

Authority of the Apostles

Jesus Christ even shares His role as just judge with the apostles!

Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Stumpmaster said:

The elevation and idolisation of "the Pastor" is pagan and cultish. I know of numerous such ones who have gone astray, and lead congregations into error.

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"Catholics don't have "pastors"
But even if we did call our priests "pastors" I see no problem.
You claim they are cultish and pagan but provide no evidence for such a claim

Mungo said:

"Catholics don't have "pastors"
But even if we did call our priests "pastors" I see no problem.
You claim they are cultish and pagan but provide no evidence for such a claim

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Then there are the Pharisees . . . you know, the ones Jesus called blind guides, snakes, whited sepulchres etc . . .

Stumpmaster said:

Then there are the Pharisees . . . you know, the ones Jesus called blind guides, snakes, whited sepulchres etc . . .

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What about them?

Mungo said:

What about them?

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he also said they are to be obeyed cos they have the jurisdictional authority of the seat of Moses and the keys of the kingdom and the power to bind
All of which Christ took from them matt 21:43 and have to peter and the apostles Matt 16:18 18:18 Jn 20:21-23

Paul Christensen said:

Off topic.

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The faith is a soldier of the RCC . His heart , his life , his mind has he surrended to her will .
thus marvel not if he always tries to point one in that direction . As for the lambs , WE MUST FOLLOW CHRIST .

amigo de christo said:

The faith is a soldier of the RCC . His heart , his life , his mind has he surrended to her will .
thus marvel not if he always tries to point one in that direction . As for the lambs , WE MUST FOLLOW CHRIST .

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you have to be in the new covenant church too jn 10:16

I was going to make mention of the hierarchy of the family unit.
Father/Mother/Child as a type.
But I'm even having trouble finding that in today's society.

I have come to believe that when a child grows up and steps out on their own,
Then the Lord steps in as Father of that child.

It is up to the parents to lay that foundation though:
Pro 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

There are father's and then there is The Father:

1Jo 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
1Jo 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

I don't see any authority over the household coming from any other than the parents and God himself.
It is man who wants to rule over other men. It makes them feel superior, powerful, dominant.

Personally, I just follow the Lord and the Good Book.
Hugs