The original word in those scriptures was Sheol.
There is no hell in Judaism as we have been led to believe in.
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There is no hell in Judaism as we have been led to believe in.
Heretics try to prove they their works are their righteousness.
Jesus has a different idea. He said...>"you must be BORN AGAIN", and by this you have gained "The Gift of Righteousness" from God.
If you are not that, then you are this...... John 3:36
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
So then what do you make of John saying he that does righteousness is righteous?
1 John 3:7
“Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.”
Sounds to me like you are calling the apostle John a heretic here. If that’s not the case, then what do you make of John’s words in 1 John 3:7?
You said:
Nowhere does Jesus say that being born again is the popular Protestant sin and still be saved imputed version of righteousness. No verse in Scripture says the penalty of sin is removed forever just because you believe in Jesus as the Savior. On the contrary, Jesus says, “If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.” (John 8:51). So it’s not just believing in Jesus that saves, but it is keeping His saying (His words).
You said:
When you read verses like John 3:36, you also have to read and believe verses like John 3:20 in context. All who do evil hate the light and neither come to the light. So if you do evil, you hate the light (i.e. the real Jesus). Saying to others that all you have to do is believe in Jesus and not do any righteousness means you are for promoting of sin while under God’s grace. But Jude 1:4 warns us against those who turn God’s grace into a license for immorality (or turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness - KJB).
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Fantastic! You are absolutely correct. Now, what English words do many versions of the Bible use to convey Sheol, and what is Sheol?
Matt 24:13 endures to the end.
Mark 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
1. Romans 11:22 – God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness
2. Colossians 1:21-23 – holy and blameless, if you continue in the faith"
3. The race of faith: the example of Paul
4. Hebrews 12:22-25: "we shall not escape if we turn away from Him"
5. Hebrews 4:1-3, 9-12: "strive to enter the rest of God"
6.Hebrews 6:4-9 – those who became partakers of the holy spirit and fell away
7. Hebrews 10:23-29, 35-39: "if we sin willfully", "if anyone draws back".
8. Matthew 24:13: He that endures to the end, the same shall be saved
9. Hebrews 3:4-6: Holding fast our confidence firm until the end
10. Matthew 24:13: "But the one who endures to the end will be saved"
11. 1 John 2:24-25 – "if what you heard from the beginning abides in you"
12. 2 John 8-9 : to "everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ
13. 2 Peter 1:5-11 : "Make every effort to supplement your faith"
14. Philippians 2:12-16: "work out your salvation with fear and trembling"
15. 1 Timothy 6:10-16: the love of money
16. Galatians 5:2-4 "Severed from Christ"
17. 2 Timothy 2:11-13: "if we deny him, he will also deny us"
18. James 5:19-20: the wandered brother
19. Some will abandon the faith
20. 1 Timothy 5:8: "he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever"
22. The real family of Jesus: "Those who hear the Word of God and do it"
23. 1 Corinthians 5:5: "so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord"
24. Peter 2: "It would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness"
25. Jude: "Turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness" - a much relevant warning
26. 1 Cor. 9:27 ....Lest I myself might become a castaway
27. Heb 1:14 shall be heirs of salvation
Romans 1:5
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
(Must remain obedient)
(He who endured to the end) one who dies in a state of grace united to Jesus Christ by faith and baptism!
Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 1 pet 3:21
Matt 24:13
Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
So salvation by “faith alone” is completely false and impossible if baptism is rejected!
“Faith alone”?
Charity
Deut. 6:5
5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema.
Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
1 cor 13:2 all faith without charity avails nothing.
1 cor 13:12 now abide faith, hope, and charity, and the greatest of these is charity.
If salvation was by “faith alone” then faith would be the greatest!!!
If we are saved by faith alone then when we first believed we would be saved?
Romans 13:11
…our salvation nearer than when we believed.
1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.
Matt 5 the merciful obtain mercy!
1 Peter 4:8
And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
Mark 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
1. Romans 11:22 – God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness
2. Colossians 1:21-23 – holy and blameless, if you continue in the faith"
3. The race of faith: the example of Paul
4. Hebrews 12:22-25: "we shall not escape if we turn away from Him"
5. Hebrews 4:1-3, 9-12: "strive to enter the rest of God"
6.Hebrews 6:4-9 – those who became partakers of the holy spirit and fell away
7. Hebrews 10:23-29, 35-39: "if we sin willfully", "if anyone draws back".
8. Matthew 24:13: He that endures to the end, the same shall be saved
9. Hebrews 3:4-6: Holding fast our confidence firm until the end
10. Matthew 24:13: "But the one who endures to the end will be saved"
11. 1 John 2:24-25 – "if what you heard from the beginning abides in you"
12. 2 John 8-9 : to "everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ
13. 2 Peter 1:5-11 : "Make every effort to supplement your faith"
14. Philippians 2:12-16: "work out your salvation with fear and trembling"
15. 1 Timothy 6:10-16: the love of money
16. Galatians 5:2-4 "Severed from Christ"
17. 2 Timothy 2:11-13: "if we deny him, he will also deny us"
18. James 5:19-20: the wandered brother
19. Some will abandon the faith
20. 1 Timothy 5:8: "he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever"
22. The real family of Jesus: "Those who hear the Word of God and do it"
23. 1 Corinthians 5:5: "so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord"
24. Peter 2: "It would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness"
25. Jude: "Turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness" - a much relevant warning
26. 1 Cor. 9:27 ....Lest I myself might become a castaway
27. Heb 1:14 shall be heirs of salvation
Romans 1:5
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
(Must remain obedient)
(He who endured to the end) one who dies in a state of grace united to Jesus Christ by faith and baptism!
Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 1 pet 3:21
Matt 24:13
Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
So salvation by “faith alone” is completely false and impossible if baptism is rejected!
“Faith alone”?
Charity
Deut. 6:5
5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema.
Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
1 cor 13:2 all faith without charity avails nothing.
1 cor 13:12 now abide faith, hope, and charity, and the greatest of these is charity.
If salvation was by “faith alone” then faith would be the greatest!!!
If we are saved by faith alone then when we first believed we would be saved?
Romans 13:11
…our salvation nearer than when we believed.
1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.
Matt 5 the merciful obtain mercy!
1 Peter 4:8
And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
Well, they have already been preaching they can't help themselves from sinning.
So this just shows how practical they are, and so don't bother trying at all.
I believe OSAS teachers such as this one on this site are retching the last days of their doctrine, and are no more trying to hide in shadows of what they really believe.
They are now literally teaching it is a sin to try and do good and we go to hell for trying not to sin.
They have already condemned the righteous for preaching doing righteousness for God and not sinning for the devil, but now they are declaring just trying to in itself is evil, because it is so vainly foolish to resist the devil, much less have him flee from us.
Then said he, Unto what is the kingdom of God like? and whereunto shall I resemble it? It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it.
And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Matt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
How to go to Hell by trying to be good.
How do souls go to hell by trying to be good? But not doing good, and sinning instead. How? By stop trying to do good, and just sinning instead.
Why? By believing it's impossible not to sin and do good. Why else? By also believing their future sinning is already forgiven anyway.
OSAS gets souls to believe it, and now teach souls to do it.
Afterall, why seek God's righteousness first and resist the devil, when you already believe you are born to sin from cradle to grave, and being saved is just being already forgiven before even sinning some more?
The teacher on this thread is not just saying, what's the useless point in trying, but is now saying it is hell-bound even to try to do so.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
Cain first talked with and then killed Abel, because Abel rejected Cain's doctrine as all smoke and no blood, and OSAS so far is still trying to talk OSAS sense into the righteous Abels of today.
These unrighteous christian sinners don't want anyone even thinking of doing good and not sinning, much less doing it. Why?
For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
The righteous saints that love righteousness and eschew evil, live it, exhort, and preach it to our fellow saints, that all the body of Christ might love to do the same and one another, holding to our Head Jesus and with both His hands unto the end of this life, that He may lift us up by the hand into His presence on the throne of glory.
That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Someone preaching sinning for life, and not even trying not to, is definitely not loving me with the righteous love of Christ. Evil Cain may think so, but not righteous Abel.
These unrighteous christian sinners don't want anyone even thinking of doing good and not sinning, much less doing it. Why?
For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
The righteous saints that love righteousness and eschew evil, live it, exhort, and preach it to our fellow saints, that all the body of Christ might love to do the same and one another, holding to our Head Jesus and with both His hands unto the end of this life, that He may lift us up by the hand into His presence on the throne of glory.
That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Someone preaching sinning for life, and not even trying not to, is definitely not loving me with the righteous love of Christ. Evil Cain may think so, but not righteous Abel.
Always Believing
Active Member
I'm not disagreeing with you of what we ought to be doing. I am only saying what I ought to be doing and actually doing is not always the same and I do no argue against you who are doing as you ought. I simply no more judge my faith and salvation by what I am doing as compared to what we all ought to be doing.
I am not in the once saved always saved category, but once believing always believing. I must and will always be believing in order to be saved. If I stop believing, I will not be saved. I just don't base my believing upon everything I am doing anymore. When I do sin, I hate it, and by God's mercy I can confess it and be forgiven and saved by believing in His mercy and promise to forgive, forget, and save forever.
I don't pick and choose what to believe from the Bible, because it is all true, but I only now choose to always believe even if God is not agreeing with what I am doing at the time. If I die in a state of not believing Jesus is the Christ and am saved, then I am not going to heaven. That is why my practice and daily exercise of faith is always believing all day long unto bedtime and from when waking up in the morning.
I never said anything about faith and belief alone. That would be as I was before without any dislike or hatred for sinning, and always looked forward to it and enjoyed it as much as I could. Faith alone is also without sad confession in order to be forgiven because why confess to repent something that you still love to do?
I dont agree with those who say faith alone saves us and there is no need for confessing sinning to be forgiven and saved by faith in Jesus' promise to do it. Confessing in sorrow to Jesus Christ is the one work that He forgives, saves, and justifies us by and I am only saying that is the only work of faith that I trust in to be saved and justified by. I no longer look to any good works or not sinning in order to believe in my salvation by Jesus Christ. If I can believe Jesus is the Christ and can confess His name without shame, then I am saved and I must continue in that faith of believing and is all I care about now.
As I said I believe all the Bible is true and enduring temptation is a blessing with God and most of the time I do and sometimes I don't. I just don't base my believing Jesus is the Christ and am saved on whether I am enduring or not. And if you endure all the time and do not give into temptation to sin like Jesus, then you are most blessed of all and have all His joy without shadow of sinning and need of confessing and forgiving. I do believe in Christian saints like you who do not need to be sinning confessing and being forgiven over and over. I am not like others that refuse to believe you are not a saint just because I am not. I don't judge any Christian as unsaved for sinning or being self righteous for not sinning.
Yes I have had naughtiness laid aside by believing Jesus is the Christ because naughtiness is maliciousness and grinning while sinning and I don't have that in me anymore or sin that way. I used to love the life of fighting and I don't anymore, but I'm not going to say I won't fight again. Which would not be good because fighting is not something anyone wants to do without their heart in it. I have simply learned to stop making promises to God and myself that I find myself not keeping. I have given up oath making and so at least I'm not making myself a fool and liar to God and myself anymore. And so my heart is not deceiving me or trying to deceive God anymore.
If we do not sin then we will not experience the spiritual death of it and I do not say I wont again but I do practice my faith to confess and be forgiven when and if I do. Afterall tomorrow isn't promised and so I may not even have to bother with it anymore. And if you are doing as you say and keep doing His will and not sinning then your joy is fuller than mine.
My hope is that I am not being a whoremongerer when I die. I do seriously doubt I will be a murderer because I didn't ever want to go there when I used to love being a whoremongerer before believing in Jesus. And I'm not being one now. Remember, I am not saying like others seem to say that I have to sin. I am only saying I will not say I will not sin. If you know what I mean. And if you are saying you are not sinning then I believe you because you are only dong what we are supposed to be doing or not doing. But if you say the Bible tells us we will not sin then you have no Bible saying that. No one does. The Bible only tells us we ought not to sin and even commands us not to, but never tells us we will not sin.
The only difference between me and you is your confidence in not sinning, but if you do sin then you have the same advocate as me and must also confess and be forgiven and saved just like me when I do. Other than that I don't believe there would be too much difference in how we live. I am just as neighborly as the next guy and live and let live and stop to help someone in need and am charitable and pray often enough, and if I am sinning I am not flaunting it nor glad about it. You are a Christian saint and I am a Christian sinner and you are the better for it and I am not, but we both can only trust in believing Jesus is the Christ and are saved by Him whether doing good or sinning. But I am not of the devil like I used to be when I really did enjoy it and did nothing to avoid it and resist the devil.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
What do you do with verses like James 1:12, James 1:21, Romans 8:13, Hebrews 12:14, Matthew 5:28-30, 1 Timothy 5:8, 1 Corinthians 9:27?
They sound to me like “not sinning” is a part of salvation. Did you ever stop to think that you could be wrong and these verses are in fact teaching that we must overcome sin (that the Bible warns us against with dire consequences to our soul in the afterlife)?
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
I couldn't have said it better myself maam. Now compare that with your original post and you will see why I wanted to discuss it with you. I am sure like me you are going to be extremely happy when hell is emptied by all being resurrected from it, and it meets it's final demise being no longer needed Rev 20:13,14.
I didn't get to say much on the topic, but I have enjoyed chatting with you about it maam. I hope we have many fine conversations in the future as well.
You have no "righteousness", so you can't do any.
You have this deceived idea that you trying to be good, or you doing some good deed is "doing righteousness".
Forget it.
Why?
A.) "all have SINNED", = you are UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, and you will remain so, unless God gives you "the Gift of Righteousness".
All the born again have this Gift.
As this is : Salvation.
"imputed righteousness" is not a "protestant concept".
Its a Pauline Theology.
Find it in a BIBLE, if you own one. Romans 4:22-25
