Is God finished with Israel?

I've heard all of the arguments for years, and I still believe the Abrahamic Covenant is at the heart of this question. Indeed it is the main plan of God for the earth.

In this Covenant, God promised Abraham two essential elements. One, He promised Abraham a biological posterity who would become a nation, the nation Israel. We must assume that Israel must continue forever, if God is to be true to His word.

And two, God promised that beyond the nation Israel there would also be other-- many other nations who share the faith of Abraham. They would be like step-children to him, or perhaps adopted children. In all, many nations must be built on the faith of Abraham for God's word to be properly fulfilled.

We have seen much of this come to pass. Israel became a viable nation in the OT, and the international Church came into its maturity in the NT era. But both Israel and the international Church have fallen upon hard times, and it looks as if God's promises are being threatened.

During the NT era, Israel, as a nation, had fallen, and the international Church, as it developed, began to lose faith in the reality of Israel's restoration. Amillennialism began to look at the notion of a restored Israel in the Millennium as a fantasy, and relegated it to the Church Age, with the International Church no longer accepting Israel's place among the Christian nations.

And now that Christian nations are falling, many Christians have stopped believing in Christian nations entirely, choosing to embrace a separatistic Christianity, as opposed to a Christian State. What it boils down to is the loss of faith in God's promises because they no longer appear to be working.

But a careful look at both OT Prophets and NT theology will show, I believe, that Christ died to ensure that these promises will indeed be fulfilled. The existence of mere remnants continue to show hope of a final restoration following judgment against those who are bringing about the apostasies that have been taking place.

Randy Kluth said:

I've heard all of the arguments for years, and I still believe the Abrahamic Covenant is at the heart of this question. Indeed it is the main plan of God for the earth.

In this Covenant, God promised Abraham two essential elements. One, He promised Abraham a biological posterity who would become a nation, the nation Israel. We must assume that Israel must continue forever, if God is to be true to His word.

And two, God promised that beyond the nation Israel there would also be other, many other nations who share the faith of Abraham. They would be like step-children to him, or perhaps adopted children. In all, many nations must be built on the faith of Abraham for God's word to be properly fulfilled.

We have seen much of this come to pass. Israel became a viable nation in the OT, and the international Church came into its maturity in the NT era. But both Israel and the international Church have fallen upon hard times, and it looks as if God's promises are being threatened.

During the NT era, Israel, as a nation, had fallen, and the international Church, as it developed, began to lose faith in the reality of Israel's restoration. Amillennialism began to look at the notion of a restored Israel in the Millennium as a fantasy, and relegated it to the Church Age, with the International Church no longer accepted Israel's place among the Christian nations.

And now that Christian nations are falling, many Christians have stopped believing in Christian nations entirely, choosing to embrace a separatistic Christianity, as opposed to a Christian State. What it boils down to is the loss of faith in God's promises because they no longer appear to be working.

But a careful look at both OT Prophets and NT theology will show, I believe, that Christ died to ensure that these promises will indeed be fulfilled. The existence of mere remnants continue to show hope of a final restoration following judgment against those who are bringing about the apostasies that have been taking place.

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You really should look deeper in study of God's Word, particularly The Old Testament prophets about the two 'houses'. Keraz and I disagree on some matters, but not this one about the different prophecies to the two separate houses written in God's Word, of which affects the Gentile nations too, particularly Christ's Church.

And those who have... studied their Old Testament histories, and Books of the prophets, can tell when others have not done their homework in that.

Rom 9:23-26
23 And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He saith also in Osee, "I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not My people'; there shall they be called the children of the living God."
KJV

That part in red above Paul quoted from the Book of Hosea. God originally gave that to the ten tribe kingdom "house of Israel" at that time. He was getting ready to scatter them and end their kingdom. God told Hosea to marry a harlot to symbolize the ten tribe's rebellion against Him. They would become 'Lo-ami' (not My people). And thus the ten scattered tribes of Israel became lost to the Jews, and to the world, as it still is to this day.

But in final, per Hosea, God said the time would come when He would lead them to a new covenant, and they would be called "the children of the living God."

Notice Paul is speaking that to BELIEVING GENTILE ROMANS there in Romans 9.

It means believing Gentiles are INCLUDED in Abraham's inheritance, and that includes the covenants and promises to Israel.

Jeremiah 3:20 Like a woman who has been unfaithful, so you, Israel were unfaithful to Me.

Jeremiah 31:15-16 Lamentation is heard in Ramah, Rachel weeping for her children, refusing to be comforted because they are no more.
These are the words of the Lord to her; cease your weeping. There will be a reward for your toil, your children will return to the Land. Rachel is the spiritual mother of the 10 Northern tribes of Israel.

Galatians 4:22-31 Abraham had 2 sons, one to a slave woman, the other to a free woman. Ishmael born in the natural, Isaac through Gods promise. The two women stand for two covenants. Hagar and her children are of the Sinai covenant and represent Jerusalem of today, for she and her children are born into slavery.
But the Heavenly Jerusalem is the free woman, she is our mother. For Scripture says; Sing, barren woman, who never bore a child. For the deserted wife will have more children than she who has a husband. Isaiah 54:1

Now you, my Christian friends, like Isaac, are children of Gods promise. But just as in those days, the natural born son persecuted the spiritual son, for the son of the slave shall not share the inheritance with the son of the free woman. You see then, my friends, we are no slaves children, our mother is the free woman.

Galatians 5:1 Christ has set us free. Stand firm- do not submit again to the yoke of slavery.
WE Christians are the children of the promises of God. Romans 9:24-26 WE will go to live in all of the holy Land.

Revelation 12:4-5 The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour it after it was born. But when she gave birth to a male child – who is destined to rule all nations the child was taken up to God in heaven.

the dragon - Satan, thrown down to earth.

the woman - Righteous Christian Israelites, from every tribe, race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10, Revelation 7:9

the male child - The Lord Jesus, crucified, resurrected and taken up to heaven.


Micah 5:2-3 But from you, Bethlehem, will come the King – one whose origins are from the ancient past. [from the tribe of Judah]
Therefore, Israel will be abandoned until she who is pregnant has given birth. Then, those of the people who survive will rejoin their brethren.

Israel abandoned - the House of Israel and the House of Judah both conquered and taken into captivity.

She who is pregnant - Mary gives birth to Jesus. The Jews again conquered and dispersed soon after His earthly ministry.

the people who survive - The righteous Christian Jews.

their brethren - The faithful Christians peoples.

Randy Kluth said:

But a careful look at both OT Prophets and NT theology will show, I believe, that Christ died to ensure that these promises will indeed be fulfilled

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It is a certainty that God's Promises will be fulfilled. But the question is: to who?
Having intensively studied and written on the subject of Bible Prophecy, I can confidently say that the recipients are not Jewish Israel.

When the Lord sends His fiery wrath upon the Middle East, Zephaniah 2:4-5, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 12:14, Amos 1, Amos 2:1-5, as we are told; only a remnant of Judah will survive. It would seem from Isaiah 29:1-4, that just a few [Christian] Jews will survive by hiding underground, the rest will die. Isaiah 22:14

The idea of a Jewish redemption and their restoration as the People of God, is a false teaching, it comes from the 'rapture to heaven' of the Church theory and no scripture supports either belief.
This is why some write lengthy posts promoting those theories, with the glaringly obvious total lack of scriptural proofs.

Davy said:

You really should look deeper in study of God's Word, particularly The Old Testament prophets about the two 'houses'. Keraz and I disagree on some matters, but not this one about the different prophecies to the two separate houses written in God's Word, of which affects the Gentile nations too, particularly Christ's Church.

And those who have... studied their Old Testament histories, and Books of the prophets, can tell when others have not done their homework in that.

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You should not only do your homework, but you also need to be inspired. In this case, you're not inspired because I've done more than enough homework, brother.

I've had all of these discussions with Keraz, and though I think we respect each other, we have no problem sharing our differences. In the case of his view of the N. Kingdom of Israel and the S. Kingdom of Judah we certainly disagree. He thinks Israel went off with Assyria to eventually become part of European Christianity. I think he relegates Judah to the garbage bin? He thinks Jews will be condemned, with only a small remnant, perhaps, getting saved.

But my view is based on Rom 11, where Paul affirms that an entire nation will be politically saved. The entire nation, and not just a remnant, will be salvaged through the process of judgment. Though only a remnant survives Armageddon, this remnant will be converted at Christ's Coming and grow to become an entire nation once again.

Thus, Israel's "salvation" is both political and spiritual. But the spiritual salvation follows the political salvation, which is in reverse order than is often expected. God reaches out to the Jews by grace, and then through their conversion as a nation He is able to finally deliver them forever from their enemies. That is, I think the promise.

For me, the N. Kingdom of Israel was lost after the Assyrian Captivity. This part of old Israel completely apostacized, having left worship in Jerusalem for the worship of idols in Samaria and elsewhere. When they were exiled, they merged in with other nations, just as Keraz believes. And indeed, many of them may have become Christians, though their ethnicity as Jews was likely lost forever.

Davy said:

Rom 9:23-26
23 And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He saith also in Osee, "I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not My people'; there shall they be called the children of the living God."
KJV

That part in red above Paul quoted from the Book of Hosea. God originally gave that to the ten tribe kingdom "house of Israel" at that time. He was getting ready to scatter them and end their kingdom. God told Hosea to marry a harlot to symbolize the ten tribe's rebellion against Him. They would become 'Lo-ami' (not My people). And thus the ten scattered tribes of Israel became lost to the Jews, and to the world, as it still is to this day.

But in final, per Hosea, God said the time would come when He would lead them to a new covenant, and they would be called "the children of the living God."

Notice Paul is speaking that to BELIEVING GENTILE ROMANS there in Romans 9.

It means believing Gentiles are INCLUDED in Abraham's inheritance, and that includes the covenants and promises to Israel.

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I think you're missing the import of the message. Paul is saying, respectfully, that Israel went through the process of being God's People, and then being cut off, just as an idolater is to be cut off from his people. They in effect were exiled as if they were no longer God's People, but then, somehow miraculously restored to being God's People. They were to go from completely rejecting their God to accepting Him once again.

Paul was saying that if this was true of Israel, God accepting Israel having gone into a state of paganism, it's equally likely that God accepts pagan Gentiles who begin in a state of paganism, if indeed they accept God in a covenant relationship.

In other words, Paul was comparing Jews and Gentiles with respect to their eligibility for grace. If Jews received it by promise from God, based on repentance, then Gentiles can receive the same thing if they repent.

CadyandZoe said:

Amos is talking about the House of Israel, i.e. the Northern Kingdom. This kingdom consists of Hebrew people. God refers to them as "sons of Israel". He will destroy the house of Israel (vs 8) but he will not destroy the house of Jacob. He will scatter those Hebrews who come from the 10 tribes among the rest of the nations, likening this process as being sifted as grain is shaken in a sieve, but not a kernel will fall to the ground. (Vs 9) Thus, God does not consider them lost. These people may be lost to us, but God never loses track of them.

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Jacob is Israel, Israel is Jacob.
The Jewish people are Judah, who were part of Israel, but separated in ancient times and have not yet re-joined.

We cannot identify the true Israelites by ethnicity, but we can by their faith, the simple fact is that a true Israelite is a Christian person.

CadyandZoe said:

Hosea is not talking about Gentiles. God never said to any Gentile, "You are not my people" Paul is not talking about Gentiles in Romans 9:25-26.

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As the Jews refer to anyone who is not a Jew, as a Gentile; then Hosea and Paul ARE talking about Gentiles. Or more correctly; about people from every tribe, race, nation and language, who have accepted the Salvation of Jesus and keep His Commandments.

Randy Kluth said:

I think he relegates Judah to the garbage bin?

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Not me, but God will destroy all those who reject His Son. Ezekiel 21:1-16

CadyandZoe said:

So what's your problem?

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Do I have a problem ?
Why because I know one must be born again and that outside of that you are no one regardless of who one thinks they are in fact.
And another thing is one should know not to idolise anyone at all.

Know one comes to the Father but through his only begotten Son, that's a fact !
This world is as Jesus said it is, full of deceptions ! get that ! and Delusions do you get that ! and that all who are not truly born again are under such, not to mention they are seeking for god ? because they are not Saved !
The Kingdom of God is here right now in fact, if one is truly born again such a one would know that in fact and the Kingdom of God is within you, it's within ones reach ? The Pharisees might have known if they had eyes to see and ears to hear.

Keraz said:

Not me, but God will destroy all those who reject His Son. Ezekiel 21:1-16

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I very carefully said that the Jews will be saved *through repentance.* That is, they surrender their own corrupt ways to follow the Son of God. God will *not* destroy them, but will reward them for making the right decision.

Randy Kluth said:

I very carefully said that the Jews will be saved *through repentance.* That is, they surrender their own corrupt ways to follow the Son of God. God will *not* destroy them, but will reward them for making the right decision.

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Do the sheep surrender through repentance or changed by Jesus through His power, in Matthew 25:31-40?

Timtofly said:

Do the sheep surrender through repentance or changed by Jesus through His power, in Matthew 25:31-40?

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When Jesus comes back, he will award to people *in the present age,* through death or through Rapture, what they deserve. I don't think it has a thing to do with people who will enter into the Millennial Age to continue on with their lives. In the present age people will be brought to the point of judgment, including those killed at Armageddon and those whose lives and ministries are finished as committed Christians.

Those who are not killed and judged will enter the Millennial Age and witness the coming of Christ's Kingdom. It will assume the form in Israel of a repentant people, among the remnant who have survived. And they will form a Christian nation, one that will never again be judged and destroyed.

There will be, as well, many other repentant people who will re-form Christian nations, as they should be. The "sheep," then are glorified Christians, whereas the "goats" are fallen unbelievers.

When Christ comes again, he will bring judgment to them. Believers will be glorified, whereas the judged will be separated and await their final destiny in Outer Darkness. They will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, which eternally removes them from God's Kingdom.

The fact they are eternally removed from it is why it is called "eternal punishment"--not because they are tortured forever, but because their regret never experiences closure. They are forever banned from God's Paradise.

Randy Kluth said:

I very carefully said that the Jews will be saved *through repentance.* That is, they surrender their own corrupt ways to follow the Son of God. God will *not* destroy them, but will reward them for making the right decision.

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The itty-bitty problem with your idea of a general Jewish conversion to Christianity, is that such a turnaround is nowhere prophesied to happen.
I have posted many times now, most of the 20+ plainly stated Bible prophesies which say they will be killed, and only a small remnant will survive by hiding underground. Isaiah 29:1-4, Amos 2:4-5, Ezekiel 21:1-7, is just a sample.

The fact is the House of Judah, now represented by the Jewish State of Israel, are God's enemies. They will never repent and they will die for their sins. Isaiah 22:14
Why do you espouse the cause of a people who hate Jesus?

Despite most posters here showing you that the true Israel are now the Christian peoples, the Spiritual children of Abraham, [and maybe the descendants of the 10 Northern tribes] you seen incapable of realizing how Satan has fooled so many with his fake Israel.
Zionist Israel has won its wars by supernatural means. I contend that Satan is capable to scare the sandals off the Egyptians, the tea towels off the heads of the Arabs and the Palestinians to have 'work accidents'.
God is working with those who love Him and keep His Commandments. The Overcomers for Him. the faithful Israelites of God. No one else.

CadyandZoe said:

Why do you make up lies about me?

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Not making up lies, you revealed you hate any idea about the name ISRAEL being involved with Christ's Church. You purposefully steer... away from that Truth in God's Word, denying it. And there can only be one cause for that, deceptions by the false Jews.

It's the 'false' Jews that push the lie that they only are Israel today, when the actual historical fact is that today's Jews are only a small portion of the total number of Israelites, just as it was in Rehoboam's day also after God split the old kingdom of Israel into two separate kingdoms per 1 Kings 11. And even among the Jews, there's a distinction with the Ashkenazim and Sephardi Jews, with one group not really from bloodline Israel. So either you have been deceived by Jewish traditions and their hype, or you intentionally are out to deceive others about that. And either way, your lack of study of Bible history is obvious.

CadyandZoe said:

If you are going to deny the obvious then what are we doing here?

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And you falsely accuse me of lies? You are a hypocrite. The Book of Hosea was originally given by God through His prophet Hosea SPECIFICALLY to the ten tribe kingdom of the "house of Israel"! Oh, but you refuse to RECOGNIZE those Scriptures in God's Word about the two 'houses', if I recall per your own posts! Just the FACT that Apostle Paul quoted from HOSEA TO GENTILES regarding God's final prophecy to the ten tribe "house of Israel" means BELIEVING GENTILES ARE INCLUDED!

No, it isn't. Go back to Genesis and review chapter 12. Israel is not mentioned there.

Negative. Promises are NOT transferred. God made promises to each man individually.

Negative. Paul gave his life fighting against those who insisted that one must enter into the commonwealth of Israel.

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More denials, just like the lies the false Jews teach.

For brethren in Christ who WANT to know:

God's True Israel today is His Church under Jesus Christ, The New Covenant. The Gospel Promise of Jesus Christ was given FIRST through Abraham, 430 years prior to the giving of the law through Moses. So the Promise by Faith (The Gospel), WAS ALWAYS FIRST, and had NO laws or rules attached to it. Abraham believed, and God accounted to him as righteousness. And per Galatians 3 and Romans 4, those likewise of Faith on that SAME Promise of Jesus Christ, The Gospel, have become "the children of Abraham", and INHERIT with faithful Abraham!

"What do ya mean jelly bean? does that mean believing GENTILES inherit WITH ABRAHAM in God's future Kingdom?" You bet it does!!! It will be called Israel, and it is about Christ's future Kingdom AND CHURCH.

Like Apostle Paul showed in Romans 9 about believing Gentiles with quoting from Hosea, those who had no mercy had obtained mercy and are called the children of the living God.

Thus The GOSPEL of Jesus Christ began with Abraham. And care of that Gospel was TRANSFERRED through BELIEVING ISRAEL all the way down to Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh, who's care it is still in to this day in the Christian West.

God's promises He gave with that Gospel Promise by Faith to Abraham, HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LAW. Those promises to Abraham were GIVEN PRIOR TO THE LAW. Apostle Paul especially points this out in Galatians 3 and Romans 4.

Melchizedek, (King of Righteousness), was an Old Testament title for Jesus Christ in the time of Abraham. He met Abraham and blessed him, and offered Abraham "bread and wine", implements of the New Covenant. In Hebrews 7, Apostle Paul revealed that Melchizedek was indeed Jesus Christ in Old Testament times that met Abraham. At the end of John 8, Jesus declared that Abraham rejoiced to see His day and was glad. In Genesis 18, one of the "three men" that appeared at the front of Abraham's tent door was Lord Jesus, and the two angels He sent to Lot in Genesis 19. It was Lord Jesus that Abraham was speaking with when looking towards Sodom and Gomorrah and petitioning Christ to not destroy it if there were righteous in it. Don't let ANYONE tell you that was not Lord Jesus in Old Testament times, nor LIE to you saying Melchizedek was some flesh king in Abraham's day; those are false Jews that teach that LIE.

This matter of The Gospel of Jesus Christ being TRANSFERRED through BELIEVING Israelites, from Abraham, is about GOD'S BIRTHRIGHT. That BIRTHRIGHT is not simply about transfer of a father's wealth to his firstborn son, which is about earthly birthrights from a flesh father to his firstborn. GOD's BIRTHRIGHT is directly from GOD HIMSELF, and is about HIS PROMISES AND BLESSINGS. And it began first to Abraham per Genesis 12-17.

Those PROMISES were then TRANSFERRED to Abraham's son Isaac. And they were further explained to Isaac starting in Genesis 26 thru 28.

Then Isaac had a son named Jacob, and to Jacob those PROMISES originally to Abraham were TRANSFERRED, starting in Genesis 28. God even gave Jacob a NEW NAME, the name ISRAEL to represent THOSE PROMISES ORIGINALLY GIVEN THROUGH ABRAHAM! The Scriptures REVEAL GOD'S BIRTHRIGHT FIRST GIVEN ABRAHAM continually being TRANSFERRED among His faithful chosen! The REST of the 'seed' were BLINDED, EVEN AS IT STILL IS TODAY AMONG THE UNBELIEVING JEWS!

Then guess where God's Promises per HIS BIRTHRIGHT WERE TRANSFERRED AFTER JACOB?

1 Chron 5:1-2
5 Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.

2 For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was Joseph's
KJV

Who were the sons of Joseph born to him while in Egypt? Ephraim and Manasseh. Even though Manasseh was Jacob's firstborn son, God's Birthright Promises fell upon EPHRAIM the younger son. And LOOK to what God's prophecy through Jacob those two sons were to become...

Gen 48:16-20
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

Do you recognize that above in bold as the blessing God first gave to Abraham back in Genesis 12-15? You should, because that's what that is about.

17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.
18 And Joseph said unto his father, "Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head."
19 And his father refused, and said, "I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations."
20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.
KJV

Ephraim's seed was to become "a multitude of nations"!!! What KIND of nations? Did you see what Jacob said in verse 16 above, "let my name be named on them"? What name would that be???? ISRAEL, that's the NEW NAME the God gave to Jacob when he wrestled with The Angel of the The Lord. Does that mean those "multitude of nations" were to become ISRAELITE NATIONS? Yeah! EXACTLY!

That is about the WESTERN CHRISTIAN NATIONS of Ephraim and the seed of the ten scattered tribes would become, along with believing Gentiles on Jesus Christ.

Didn't the JEWS know about this? YEAH! Some of them DID, and DO know, but those are not blinded, because those are false Jews, not truly of the bloodline Israel. It is many of the true bloodline "house of Judah" (Jews) that are BLINDED PER PAUL IN ROMANS 11. It's the false Jews that Lord Jesus pointed to in Revelation 2 & 3 that know about the above Birthright involving the scattered ten tribes of Israel among the Gentiles, that would form Christ's Church in the Christian West. They represent the lost sheep of the "house of Israel" that Jesus said He was sent to. The majority of them are from the scattered ten tribes of Israel, and includes a small remnant of believing Jews of the scattered "house of Judah".

Thus the false Jews are SCARED OF THE REVEALING of this Birthright from GOD to 'believing' Israel of the ten tribes, with EPHRAIM still as its head on earth today in the Christian West. It reveals that God's Promises to His ISRAEL is not just to the small remnant of Jews, of which include many foreigners that were never born of any of the 12 tribes of Israel. They don't like this, because they want the world to stay deceived about the HARD LINK OF GOD'S BIRTHRIGHT GOSPEL PROMISE TO ABRAHAM, and The CHRISTIAN CHURCH!