Not a sinner.

mjrhealth said:

And what may I ask is "our own work".

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The answer that comes to my mind is:

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. .. .

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Giuliano said:

The answer that comes to my mind is:

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. .. .

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

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Mar 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

mjrhealth said:

Mar 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

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One must have faith in God in order to do His works. It may look like we're doing our works, and we may talk about it as if they are ours; but I believe all good comes from God. Even if I see a pagan or an agnostic doing a good deed, I think he is doing God's work to a degree. He's still learning. I am learning how to do it better, they are learning how to do it better. . . . if we are yield to the good nature God gave us and not to the nasty serpent side that prefers to bite others.

I also believe the more we yield to the good nature God gave us, the stronger it becomes and the weaker the serpent side becomes. I admire Peter for how he mastered his "satanic" side when Jesus pointed it out -- and for his not becoming offended when Jesus did that. He knew the reason Jesus did that was because he loved him and wanted the best for him. He had "faith" in Jesus. I also like how Peter could spot the "potential saint" in Peter and how patient he was with him, drawing out the saint by bringing the satanic under control. Jesus certainly had a knack (still does too) in bringing out the best in people. He speaks -- and it's like "let there be light" and then light appears. However some of the darkness does not understand the Word and stays in darkness. But to those who can hear his Voice, there is light and more light.

mjrhealth said:

And what may I ask is "our own work".

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To pick our crosses and follow Him. To take ourselves to the place of execution...the cross of Christ. And then to walk faithfully till the end.

Episkopos said:

To pick our crosses and follow Him. To take ourselves to the place of execution...the cross of Christ. And then to walk faithfully till the end.

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How far does one have to carry ones cross, not even Jesus carried His cross to the end, we are asked to become baptized in His baptism to die, so we can be raised up into the newness of His life, as we have, so there is no more cross to carry, because it is left there where we died, and now we walk after Him that is our life.

It is finished.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

mjrhealth said:

How far does one have to carry ones cross, not even Jesus carried His cross to the end, we are asked to become baptized in His baptism to die, so we can be raised up into the newness of His life, as we have, so there is no more cross to carry, because it is left there where we died, and now we walk after Him that is our life.

It is finished.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

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I think we need to put our own serpent on the pole. If someone wants to keep that serpent alive, he has not yet been buried with Jesus by baptism. The serpent is still down there, biting at his heels and he's wondering, "What did that?" See the serpent for what it is. Nail it down, get rid of it, when we spot it.

Giuliano said:

I think we need to put our own serpent on the pole. If someone wants to keep that serpent alive, he has not yet been buried with Jesus by baptism. The serpent is still down there, biting at his heels and he's wondering, "What did that?" See the serpent for what it is. Nail it down, get rid of it, when we spot it.

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Not quiet sure what you are saying here??

mjrhealth said:

Not quiet sure what you are saying here??

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Jesus compared the manner of his death to the serpent on the pole that Moses made.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

If we "see" it, then we will be healed as Israel was when Moses put the serpent on the pole.

Numbers 21:8 And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

mjrhealth said:

How far does one have to carry ones cross, not even Jesus carried His cross to the end, we are asked to become baptized in His baptism to die, so we can be raised up into the newness of His life, as we have, so there is no more cross to carry, because it is left there where we died, and now we walk after Him that is our life.

It is finished.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

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We carry our crosses to the place where we become crucified...after that HIS cross carries us.

We then carry His death in the body so that His life can be made manifest in the world in these mortal bodies.

2 Cor. 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

Your issue is with the depth of the above. The power and reality of it. Religious people want to believe they have something by a human opinion, a belief, an ideology or dogmatic stance. But Jesus really dies. And so must we. To really walk as Jesus walked we need His real life. (I have to use the word "really" over and over because so many people have been indoctrinated into a very shallow grasp of what is being described in the bible. What makes the gospel easy to transmit in words also makes a shallow appreciation or grasp of it very likely)

Episkopos said:

after that HIS cross carries us.

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No it does not, your old life ends at calvary, just as it did with Christ, than we become the "new" man. what has the new men got to do with death and dying, we come to Christ so we can live.

And what has Christ go to do with religion, those who are His belong to Him alone. As He put it, If you abide in Him He will abide in you.

Behold said:

If we are not "born again sinless" then God is a liar, the Cross is a lie and the Blood of Jesus is a fantasy.

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Are you saying you never sin? Because if you sin you arent sinless. It's common sense 101. If you even have anger in your heart you have murdered. So examine that with your 1st paragraph and explain what you cannot possibly explain.

And why did you place it in quotes, "born again sinless."

Behold said:

Jesus is God manifested in the Flesh.

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2 Corinthians 4:11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

Behold said:

The OT says....>"its God who gives you power to get wealth".

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Been thinking a lot about “God gives you power to get wealth” and could maybe debate mans definition of “wealth”:
John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God,(wealth) even to them that believe on his name: [13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 Corinthians 10:24 Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.

As Christ did in: 2 Corinthians 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

Behold said:

The NT says...>"God knows you have need of food, shelter, money, temporal things, but seek first HIS KINGDOM, which is Righteousness, Peace, Joy, Spiritual Power, and all these temporal (worldly) things will be supplied to you", ect.

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Same here...to institute that in seeking the kingdom of God and His reign, one will never be physically hungry or physically naked would (imo) make Paul a false witness when he constantly said he was hungry and naked and cold as were other saints. To me the promise is in putting on Christ, in putting on the New Man that God has promised to clothe from above in His glory, John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Seek first the kingdom of God...God gives Living water to those who thirst after His righteousness, God gives bread from Heaven to those who hunger, and ‘shelter’, a house from above which will never be dissolved, and what to put on... put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

In this has God not fulfilled His great promises where He said ‘do not worry’ for in the Spirit there is no lack or need as God provide

not saying anyone has to agree but what is the grass that to morrow is cast into the oven ...if not that which is temporary? Luke 12:27-29 Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. [28] If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith? [29] And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind. (Receiving not the things of the Spirit)

There is a promise (imo) that God gives something to eat, and drink, and something to put on that remains and is not consumed by fire when the oven(furnace) is heated ...

mjrhealth said:

No it does not, your old life ends at calvary, just as it did with Christ, than we become the "new" man. what has the new men got to do with death and dying, we come to Christ so we can live.

And what has Christ go to do with religion, those who are His belong to Him alone. As He put it, If you abide in Him He will abide in you.

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Someone who fights against the truth of the bible is putting their opinions, feelings, ideas...ahead of the truth. As such that person is not just uncrucified....but also unwilling to carry their own cross.

quietthinker said:

The objective is not to prove anything to any human being regarding Commandment keeping.....the objective is to live healthy functional lives that glorify God not dysfunctional lives that live a pretence.

It is the Law that serves as a mirror. As Paul says, he would not have known what it was to covet unless the Law had pointed it out to him. Pretending the Law doesn't exist or is no longer relevant (whatever language one wants to use to convey the same meaning) is the epitome of dysfunction.

Holiness at its base is functionality.

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Christ is the real mirror, I think.

mjrhealth said:

No it does not, your old life ends at calvary, just as it did with Christ, than we become the "new" man. what has the new men got to do with death and dying, we come to Christ so we can live.

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Just so.

Behold said:

Jesus is the Savior.

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Yes, but you will not receive His benefit without first trusting Him.

Much love!

Behold said:

Paul , understood who Christ was when he told us to be his followers....
Try to remember that....
He was not discounting Christ, or comparing Himself to Divinity..
He was instead laying out the path for the followers of Christ.
Jesus understood why he choose Paul and not one of the other "original" apostles to receive and deliver everything we understand as "Church Doctrine" and all we understand as "Justification by Faith".
There is a reason that only Paul is the "Gentile Apostle" in the Time of the Gentiles.
There is a reason why Paul told you that he had accomplished more for the cause of God, Christ, and the Gospel, then "all the other Apostles".
So, if you are not a disciple of Paul's epistles, you are not ever going to be a deep student of the word of God.

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Students of Paul? Disciples of Paul's epistles?

2 Pet. 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.